The MRJ news thread

Join this forum to discuss the latest news that happened in the world of commercial aviation.

Moderator: Latest news team

Flanker2
Posts: 1611
Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

The MRJ news thread

Post by Flanker2 » 20 Aug 2013, 22:23

As if this project does not have enough challenges, it now seems apparent that first flight may not be possible until late 2014. This shifts EIS towards 2015, which is still 3 years earlier than the E2 by Embraer, but 2 years later than planned.

Another of those projects where amateurs are at work...
MRJ'ncy MRJ'ncy MRJ'ncy... what a stupid name they chose. :roll:

Nice concept but like this they won't get far.
Last edited by Flanker2 on 21 Feb 2016, 00:21, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
RoMax
Posts: 4396
Joined: 20 Jun 2009, 16:32

Re: MRJ EIS shfting towards 2015-2016

Post by RoMax » 21 Aug 2013, 19:49

Flanker2 wrote: MRJ'ncy MRJ'ncy MRJ'ncy... what a stupid name they chose. :roll:
What's wrong with MRJ (Mitsubishi Regional Jet)? Just like ERJ (Embraer Regional Jet), CRJ (Canadair Regional Jet), Avro RJXX(X) (Regional Jet XX(X)),... Not much variation, but nothing wrong with it.
Flanker2 wrote: Another of those projects where amateurs are at work...
I wouldn't call Mitsubishi Heavy Industries amateurs, more like Mitsubishi Aircraft Corporation (owned by MHI and 10% by Toyota) is not experienced enough to build a whole aircraft instead of parts for Airbus, Boeing, Embraer,... Just like Boeing was not experienced enough with many of the technologies they used in the 787.
There's is a difference between amateurs and companies that are not (yet) experienced enough. Amateurs don't learn, lack of experience can be solved by learning it the hard way.

C-46commando
Posts: 26
Joined: 15 May 2007, 12:40

Re: MRJ EIS shfting towards 2015-2016

Post by C-46commando » 21 Aug 2013, 19:55

Flanker2 wrote: MRJ'ncy MRJ'ncy MRJ'ncy... what a stupid name they chose. :roll:
Yes, I indeed see your point concerning the name, the MRJ does tend towards "Emergency".... IF YOU PRONOUNCE IT LIKE A RETARD!!!!!!

Since most of us aren't, your point is invalid. Sorry

jan_olieslagers
Posts: 2833
Joined: 24 Jun 2006, 08:34
Location: Vl.Brabant
Contact:

Re: MRJ EIS shfting towards 2015-2016

Post by jan_olieslagers » 21 Aug 2013, 20:08

Another of those projects where amateurs are at work...
It takes a fool to call other people fools

Flanker2
Posts: 1611
Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: MRJ EIS shfting towards 2015-2016

Post by Flanker2 » 21 Aug 2013, 22:48

Obviously you guys are not following this program from close up. Thanks for calling me a fool and a retard.
I will opt to send you the compliments back rather than embarking on such a childish quest as to try to top it.

The MRJ's biggest problem is it's ramp-up schedule, which will now only achieve full capacity of 60 a year around 2020, in absence of a second line. That's why they are desperately looking for a second line.
In simple terms, they gave Transstate and Skywest huge discounts while selling off all their slots until the next decade... which means that they have nothing left to sell for a while...

Sticking to their initial schedule was very important, but now even that doesn't seem to be plausible.

In the meanwhile, Embraer keeps selling Ejets.

This delay and the amateurs running the show, are going to destroy this marvelous project.

Let me tell you why they are amateurs. They are continuing to pursue the MR70, which is a market that has now disappeared. No one is ordering 70 seaters, most of the airlines are starting to get rid of them. Soon, with the E2 and Cseries, the market will gravitate around higher seat counts for RJ's. When interviewed, one of the guys in the commercial department told the interviewer that they were thinking of a 100-seat version...

They should be pursuing a 110-seater instead of wasting their time. That's what the market wants.

I feel that the MRJ is on a dangerous course to becoming the Japanese Fokker 70/100. They're going to sell a few hundred, build them and then kaput. Very similar to the YS-11 too.

Another of those issues is that they contracted Boeing to provide engineering support to their customers. What are they thinking?

I have talked to their salesmen during the big airshows. They talked out of memory, so when my questions were a little bit more about performance or technical, they couldn't come close to answering. They looked very embarassed when I was dictating them what they should be able to tell me. All they could tell me was engines from Pratt so so, hydraulics from Parker so so.

Regarding pricing, they are trying to sell aluminium at the price of gold. Lessors and airlines are straying far away for a reason.

The B787 program delay was a supply chain problem. They are part of that supply chain but they learned nothing.

If that isn't proof enough, there are still other things which I can't discuss.

Passenger
Posts: 5997
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: MRJ EIS shfting towards 2015-2016

Post by Passenger » 21 Aug 2013, 23:26

Let me guess how this started:

1. Someone saw a news flash on luchtvaartnieuws.nl: “Eerste vlucht Mitsubishi Regional Jet vertraagd tot 2014” (First flight Mitshubishi Regional Jet delayed till 2014”)

2. He then googled and saw this: "MRJ supplier says first flight delayed to end-2014":
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... 14-389657/

3. The same Google Search also mentions Mitsubishi's problems with the ramp-up schedule

4. He put all it in the blender, added some arrogance to it, and the result is this:
Flanker2 wrote:Obviously you guys are not following this program from close up. Thanks for calling me a fool and a retard. I will opt to send you the compliments back rather than embarking on such a childish quest as to try to top it. The MRJ's biggest problem is it's ramp-up schedule, which will now only achieve full capacity of 60 a year around 2020, in absence of a second line. That's why they are desperately looking for a second line. In simple terms, they gave Transstate and Skywest huge discounts while selling off all their slots until the next decade... which means that they have nothing left to sell for a while... Sticking to their initial schedule was very important, but now even that doesn't seem to be plausible. In the meanwhile, Embraer keeps selling Ejets. This delay and the amateurs running the show, are going to destroy this marvelous project. Let me tell you why they are amateurs. They are continuing to pursue the MR70, which is a market that has now disappeared. No one is ordering 70 seaters, most of the airlines are starting to get rid of them. Soon, with the E2 and Cseries, the market will gravitate around higher seat counts for RJ's. When interviewed, one of the guys in the commercial department told the interviewer that they were thinking of a 100-seat version... They should be pursuing a 110-seater instead of wasting their time. That's what the market wants. I feel that the MRJ is on a dangerous course to becoming the Japanese Fokker 70/100. They're going to sell a few hundred, build them and then kaput. Very similar to the YS-11 too. Another of those issues is that they contracted Boeing to provide engineering support to their customers. What are they thinking? I have talked to their salesmen during the big airshows. They talked out of memory, so when my questions were a little bit more about performance or technical, they couldn't come close to answering. They looked very embarassed when I was dictating them what they should be able to tell me. All they could tell me was engines from Pratt so so, hydraulics from Parker so so. Regarding pricing, they are trying to sell aluminium at the price of gold. Lessors and airlines are straying far away for a reason. The B787 program delay was a supply chain problem. They are part of that supply chain but they learned nothing. If that isn't proof enough, there are still other things which I can't discuss.

User avatar
RoMax
Posts: 4396
Joined: 20 Jun 2009, 16:32

Re: MRJ EIS shfting towards 2015-2016

Post by RoMax » 21 Aug 2013, 23:52

Oh how funny, they should put you at the lead of Mitsubishi Aircraft Corporation (and Brussels Airlines and Lufthansa and Ryanair and Boeing and Airbus and Swissport or Aviapartner or whatever and ... and ... and ...)! Really funny how you talk about every single aspect of aviation as if you know EVERYTHING about it.
Flanker2 wrote: I have talked to their salesmen during the big airshows. They talked out of memory, so when my questions were a little bit more about performance or technical, they couldn't come close to answering. They looked very embarassed when I was dictating them what they should be able to tell me. All they could tell me was engines from Pratt so so, hydraulics from Parker so so.
IF that's true, you didn't talk to their salesmen, you talked to their general promotion people and not those who speak with the people/companies that really matter.
Flanker2 wrote: If that isn't proof enough, there are still other things which I can't discuss.
Of course, you can't discuss it because you can't find it by using Google...tried Yahoo already?! :roll:
Flanker2 wrote:Obviously you guys are not following this program from close up. Thanks for calling me a fool and a retard.
I will opt to send you the compliments back rather than embarking on such a childish quest as to try to top it.
Wasn't me this time, I'll keep it friendly: please can you just try to not pretend like you are the smartest man on earth and leave that arrogance behind you when talking bad about every single thing you don't like.

Thank you. End of discussion for me.

(Note: I agree with the fact that the MRJ project is being messed up, but so far the simmilarities with all the things you said above.)

Flanker2
Posts: 1611
Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: MRJ EIS shfting towards 2015-2016

Post by Flanker2 » 22 Aug 2013, 09:01

Passenger wrote:Let me guess how this started:

1. Someone saw a news flash on luchtvaartnieuws.nl: “Eerste vlucht Mitsubishi Regional Jet vertraagd tot 2014” (First flight Mitshubishi Regional Jet delayed till 2014”)

2. He then googled and saw this: "MRJ supplier says first flight delayed to end-2014":
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... 14-389657/

3. The same Google Search also mentions Mitsubishi's problems with the ramp-up schedule

4. He put all it in the blender, added some arrogance to it, and the result is this:
I don't read luchtvaartnieuws.nl but the source is flightglobal.com
I don't see what your problem is with that? Is it unacceptable to you that an article is quoted and discussed?
If there is arrogance anywhere, it's from you SN fanboy.


I didn't realise this community was such a huge MRJ fan club. I did know that there was a Boeing fzan club and an Airbus fan club, with the SN fan club cheering for Ejets and Cseries. Make up your mind, will you?

In the meanwhile I remind you that this topic is about the multiple issues the MRJ is facing and among them, their recent delay of the program. If you want to discuss that you're welcome, otherwise I invite you to get lost.

Passenger
Posts: 5997
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: MRJ EIS shfting towards 2015-2016

Post by Passenger » 22 Aug 2013, 10:29

Flanker2 wrote: I don't read luchtvaartnieuws.nl but the source is flightglobal.com
There is common sense on every forum that, when posting something that is taken from another site, that site is mentionned as source. You dind't. Hence I did. So you're a bit too late with "the source is..."

Flanker2
Posts: 1611
Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: MRJ EIS shfting towards 2015-2016

Post by Flanker2 » 22 Aug 2013, 13:56

See if I care

Passenger
Posts: 5997
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: MRJ EIS shfting towards 2015-2016

Post by Passenger » 22 Aug 2013, 15:27

Official press release MRJ about their delay:

http://www.mrj-japan.com/press_releases ... 30822.html

Tokyo, August 22, 2013

Mitsubishi Aircraft Corporation (MITAC) today announced a revamped schedule of the Mitsubishi Regional Jet (MRJ) program. First flight is slated for 2Q CY2015, with first delivery in 2Q CY2017.

Prior to this adjustment, first flight was scheduled for 4Q CY2013, and first delivery between summer CY2015 and 1Q CY2016.

In the course of developing the MRJ with a focus on safety, unprecedented fuel efficiency, and passenger comfort, MITAC has simultaneously addressed processes in which design and development of aircraft system and component specifications are aligned with safety certification.

Design and respective certification, however, have taken greater resources than anticipated which, in turn, impacted component deliveries and aircraft fabrication. In step with program partners, MITAC has established this new schedule to take into account the fulfillment of respective safety certification standards.

Assembly of the first test airframes is under way in preparation for respective ground and flight tests. Customer support's portfolio of services and providers are also taking shape, as is the preparation of facilities for realizing serial production at the earliest.

Mitsubishi Aircraft reiterates its commitment to building the MRJ as a safe, efficient, and game-changing regional aircraft that will meet, and exceed, the needs of our customers.

Flanker2
Posts: 1611
Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: MRJ olanned EIS moved to Q2 2017.

Post by Flanker2 » 22 Aug 2013, 19:59

The MRJ has been in development since over 6 years now and in production since 3 years.

With EIS that close to the E2, MRJ has lost all its competitive advantage over the E2, due to incompetence and lack of experience. The market will be significantly different in 2017, I suspect that only few airlines would still be interested in operating sub-100 seat jet aircraft.

Embraer is already anticipating that and stretching the Ejets with the E2 version.

Originally, the MRJ was planned for EIS not in 2013 but in 2012!
Yes ladies and gentlemen, the Dreamliner's delay is nothing compared to the MRJ's 5 year delay.

Now the questions is, why did Skywest order 100 + 100 Ejets E2 at Paris when they already have right as many for the MR90? And this, just a few weeks before this huge delay announcement? Are they hedging against the collapse of the MRJ or replacing it altogether?

The MRJ program has now become a joke. Such a shame for such a great idea.

Flanker2
Posts: 1611
Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: MRJ planned EIS moved to Q2 2017.

Post by Flanker2 » 27 Aug 2013, 20:26

This is a new Flightglobal article. It includes criticism and scepticism expressed by aerospace analysts who spend more time doing that stuff than I do.
Flightglobal.com

Slips in the schedule have led industry watchers to voice scepticism on the regional jet’s commercial potential, as the timing gap with Embraer’s upgraded E-Jets has narrowed


Despite Mitsubishi Aircraft's confidence that sales prospects for the Mitsubishi MRJ regional jet will not be hurt by the recent delay announcement, analysts are less optimistic.

The delay of the MRJ90's first flight by more than 15 months to Q2 2015, with first delivery, to All Nippon Airways (ANA), moving back to the summer of 2017, cuts deeply into the first-mover advantage the MRJ has over Embraer's new E-Jet E2 family. Analysts also doubt the programme can secure any big orders before the aircraft actually flies.

With the most recent delay, the third since the programme's launch, the MRJ will only enter service a year ahead of Embraer's 97-seat E-190 E2 - provided neither airframer makes further schedule changes.

Data from Flightglobal's Ascend Online Fleets database indicates that Mitsubishi is to build four MRJs in 2017, before ramping up to produce 31 aircraft in 2018, followed by 51 in 2019. Based on current firm orders for 165 aircraft, production is scheduled to 2022.

Embraer, meanwhile, is expected to manufacture five E2s in 2018, followed by nine in 2019, before cranking up production rates into the 20s from 2020. With its 150 aircraft order book, production is to continue through to 2027.

"The delay does eat into the schedule advantage that the MRJ has had over Embraer's re-engined E2 series," says Ray Jaworowski, Forecast International's senior aerospace analyst. "Potential customers looking for early delivery slots will now take a serious look at both aircraft before making a purchase decision."

Rob Morris, senior consultant at Ascend, adds that the shortened period between the entry into service of the two aircraft works in favour of Embraer, which already has an advantage given its significant customer base for earlier E-Jets.

"It's also unlikely that the E2 will see similar delays given its derivative nature," he adds.

While the MRJ is a new aircraft project by the Japanese, the E2 is an upgraded version of Embraer's E-Jet family with new engines, wings and upgraded avionics. Both aircraft will be powered by Pratt & Whitney's geared turbofan engines - the PW1200G for the MRJ and the PW1900G for the E-190/195.

The MRJ delay, however, did not come as a complete surprise, especially in light of delays to other high profile programmes in recent years, namely the Boeing 787 and Bombardier CSeries. The delay was also somewhat anticipated considering Mitsubishi's position as a rookie airframer.

Analysts say it is imperative that Mitsubishi assuage concerns among customers and prospects, and also work to reduce any impact of programme delays on future orders.

"Mitsubishi needs to clearly explain to their customers (and prospects and the market) the rationale behind the delay. They also need to set out the revised programme and then demonstrate achievement of clear milestones towards the revised first flight and subsequent first delivery," says Morris.

He adds that further delays could "fundamentally damage the programme".

SkyWest Airlines, which made an order for 100 MRJ90s, with an option for an additional 100 of the type in 2012, had previously said that the availability of the MRJ in 2017 is one reason it picked the aircraft.

"We have seen delays recently of several aircraft programmes so this is common. If there are further delays, we would have to reconsider our response to this question," says its chief financial officer Michael Kraupp in response to questions on how the MRJ delay has affected SkyWest's fleet plans.

"I would also believe that the recently announced delay could have a temporary effect on current sales campaigns. At this time, we will simply have to wait and see how they deliver on their revised plan," he adds.

More than just impacting sales, the MRJ programme's delay could also have a knock-on impact on the launch of its stretched 100-seat variant. Mitsubishi told Flightglobal Pro at the Paris air show that airlines have requested a 100-seat regional jet, and that there is "a good chance" it will launch the project, though the focus is still on making sure the MRJ90 takes to the skies.

"Such a model would be a natural progression for the MRJ series, given the trend in the regional jet market toward larger capacity aircraft. If Mitsubishi chooses to launch the MRJ100, a significant delay in doing so would cede a considerable early sales advantage to such aircraft as Embraer's E2 series and the Bombardier CS100 CSeries model," says Jaworowski.

Mitsubishi has a backlog for 165 firm orders with 160 options.

Embraer, meanwhile, has a firm order for 100 E-175 E2 aircraft, 25 E-190 E2 and 25 E-195 E2, and another 150 of these aircraft on options and purchase rights. It has also secured letters of intent totalling 65 E-Jet E2s from unnamed customers.

User avatar
RoMax
Posts: 4396
Joined: 20 Jun 2009, 16:32

Re: MRJ planned EIS moved to Q2 2017.

Post by RoMax » 27 Aug 2013, 22:23

Flanker2 wrote:This is a new Flightglobal article. It includes criticism and scepticism expressed by aerospace analysts who spend more time doing that stuff than I do.
I don't know what you try to prove, but nobody denied that the MRJ project is being messed up and as a result wastes a lot of its potential.
The only critic in this topic, is about the way you express this critic in your typicall way of "I know it all and all the rest are amateurs and I should run the world".

Anyway, thanks for sharing the article (I already read it, but it contains interesting information that may be new for several other forum members).

Flanker2
Posts: 1611
Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: MRJ planned EIS moved to Q2 2017.

Post by Flanker2 » 26 Jun 2014, 10:26

The MRJ in its full beauty.

Image
Image
Image

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... st-400783/

Notice the flattened pylon that results in the engines hanging pretty high despite the low wings.
The nose is also very sharp compared to other aircraft types.
Very compact and slick.
The engines look pretty small compared to the aircraft.

Definitely a winning proposition if the PW1000's pan out.
But the delays and lower sales price make the E2 much more attractive.

On a side note, Sukhoi is working on a stretched SSJ NG, the SSJ130, which will feature PW1000G engines.
Its planned EIS is 2020.

User avatar
sn26567
Posts: 34732
Joined: 13 Feb 2003, 00:00
Location: Rosières/Rozieren, Belgium
Contact:

Re: MRJ planned EIS moved to Q2 2017.

Post by sn26567 » 25 Dec 2015, 12:50

Mitsubishi Aircraft and Mitsubishi Heavy Industries announced that the companies will change the first delivery schedule of the MRJ from 2Q 2017 to approximately 2Q 2018, due to “several issues.”

It seems that the wing structure has to be reinforced.

The initial plan was to have the MRJ flying by 2014...
André
ex Sabena #26567

Flanker2
Posts: 1611
Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: MRJ planned EIS moved to Q2 2017 --> Q2 2018

Post by Flanker2 » 27 Dec 2015, 23:30

I also hope that they can take advantage of the delays to work out all the teething problems and deliver a mature and seamless product. At this point they have no choice but to do so.

I'm also thinking that we might hear about a larger MRJ110 very soon.
I wonder if the delay is not owed to an attempt to accommodate a stretch. It makes sense to do this at this stage of testing rather than later. It saves a lot of money and time.

Flanker2
Posts: 1611
Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: MRJ planned EIS moved to Q2 2017 --> Q2 2018

Post by Flanker2 » 11 Feb 2016, 09:28

First flight after modification work, first flight with gears up. Beautiful


User avatar
sn26567
Posts: 34732
Joined: 13 Feb 2003, 00:00
Location: Rosières/Rozieren, Belgium
Contact:

Re: MRJ planned EIS moved to Q2 2017 --> Q2 2018

Post by sn26567 » 16 Feb 2016, 21:51

Despite the late EIS, sales of the MRJ are brisk: Mitsubishi Aircraft (Japan) and Aerolease Aviation (US) signed a Letter of Intent for an order of 10 firm MRJ90s with an option to an additional 10 MRJ90s.
André
ex Sabena #26567

Flanker2
Posts: 1611
Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

The MRJ news thread

Post by Flanker2 » 21 Feb 2016, 00:21

Nice first flight montage by Mitsubishi:


Post Reply