Swiss Transferring Cameroon Service to Brussels Airlines

[134flyer]

I can not tell you the number of times I've seen pax empty their 2nd or 3rd piece of handluggage at the gate, only to put on literally everything that was in there just to be able to take it with them on the flight! Crazy sight to see pax come on board with 3 shirts and 2 suits on when you're going to DLA where it's 30°C and extremely humid!

Now THAT'S hilarious!!

Oh well, what do we know about it all?

Actually, 'we' don't know anything at all;
-there is no transfer from LX to SN, LX is just quiting Cameroon (BTW thank you tolipanebas for your perfect explanation :thumbup: )
-OT, but e.g. Air Dolomiti doesn't fly Italians to FRA & MUC (AKA as 'Italy's northernmost airport'), but most pax are actually Germans flying to Italy; so all those Italian speaking pax are actually Germans perfecting their Italian

And the list goes on and on and on...

[Flanker]

Flanker wrote:
When I saw the title I had some hope but then when you look at the detail of the "transfer", it's easy to figure out that this looks more like Swiss stopping service to Cameroon than transferring it to SN.


I know for you the glass is always empty when it is actually half full, but it seems that here you're even declaring it empty when it is filled up almost to the top!
Indeed, I suggest you have a very good look at the schedule again, because you've clearly misread it completely and automatically assumed what would best fit your pessimistic reading of events!

Flanker wrote:
Net capacity increases of the operation:
NSI +0 (2 direct becoming 4 tag-ons)


Currently, there may be 2 direct flights per week to and from NSI in the SN timetable allright, but they are not just serving NSI, you know?
SN353/4 to NSI is actually routing an incredible BRU-NSI-FIH-NSI-BRU, so NSI is served 2 times weekly in combination with FIH and thus sharing its capacity with FIH too.
NSI will be served 6 times weekly in future in a much leaner triangular with DLA, so that is a HUGE capacity jump indeed! In short:NSI goes from 2 shared frequencies to 6 shared frequencies per week.

Flanker wrote:
Net capacity increases of the operation:
DLA +1 (3 tag-ons becoming 5 tag-ons)



Again, read the timetables correctly.
Currently SN351/2 to DLA routes 3 times weekly a multilegged BRU-DLA-FIH-DLA-BRU, thus serving DLA 3 times weekly nonstop both ways, but in combination with FIH and thus sharing its capacity with FIH too.
In future, DLA will be served daily through operating 6 times weekly triangular BRU-DLA-NSI-BRU and 1 weekly multilegged BRU-DLA-FIH-DLA-BRU, so that means that DLA sees a capacity increase from 3 shared frequencies to 7 shared frequencies per week!

Flanker wrote:
Net capacity increases of the operation:
FIH +1 (2 tag-ons becoming direct)


Again, that's wrong!
There's currently not a single direct flight to FIH from BRU and there are only 2 non-stop flights from FIH thanks to the the twice weekly triangular BRU-LAD-FIH-BRU flight, all other flights to and from FIH route through a destination in Cameroon (either NSI or DLA) on both ways!
Sorry to say, but is clearly shows from your remarks above that you haven't understood this!
In future, FIH will be served 4 times per week non-stop, next to a 1 weekly frequency which will route through DLA as before as well as the 2 triangular flights in combination with LAD, thus giving FIH 4 non-stop flights per week to FIH and even 6 non-stop flights per week from FIH.
Again, that's a significant capacity jump for the route, more so even as here it isn't due to a transfer of pax from LX!

Flanker wrote:
Swiss operates 3 to 4 weekly triangles on DLA-NSI.


That's the only part of your post remotely correct: as you can see from the explation above, the entire capacity is transferred to SN in BRU indeed, which takes the occasion to cut FIH lose and increase capacity there too in the same time.

Flanker wrote:
My opinion is that rather than a transfer, this is just SN naturally increasing frequencies on DLA and capacity on FIH in line with continuing (slow) expansions in Africa and LX just stopping Cameroon.


Naturally increasing frequencies!?! Let's keep it simple for all to understand, shall we?
This is what you'll see happening as from the end of March next year:
NSI goes from 2 to 6 triangular flights per week, so plus 4
DLA goes from 3 to 7 triangular flights per week, so plus 4
FIH goes from 2 to 6 non-stop per week, so plus 4
all while LX is axing its 4 triangular flights per week to DLA and NSI...
if that isn't a straight-out transfer, then I don't know what is!

You may be right but if so, you have to blame the original poster for the wrong information and you only have yourself to blame for not correcting his mistakes in your first reply.
My figures are 100% correct if you take the OP's numbers.

If you are right and the OP is wrong, it would indeed be a major commitment of the LH Group.
Be sure that I'm no anti-LH activist, in fact I only hope that LH would take-over SN but fear that it will only be sweet dreams and empty promises.

Also, it's arrogant of you to not check the facts posted by the OP with mine and write half a page that I won't waste my time reading, full of critics and childish comments. Don't forget that people know that you're a SN pilot, and to the outside world you represent your colleagues as much as yourself.
Be ashmed of yourself, it's about time that you start acting like a grown man.

Principles of route structure rationalising between alliance partners need carefull application ...
For instance, LX run a near daily flight to NBO while SN also. I don't see any of them abandoning it.
Although yealds are not so high and demand giving signs of weakening.

Any thoughts ?

Well, as long as you consider LX and SN just alliance partners, it makes them no less competitors of eachother. This is why there's all this commitment debate. Should we consider SN a Star partner or a LH Group Airline? NBO is weak not because of LX and SN, but mostly because Kenya Airways is running a strong business out of there. Just imagine that they have twice the widebody fleet that SN has

[134flyer]

You may be right but if so, you have to blame the original poster for the wrong information and you only have yourself to blame for not correcting his mistakes in your first reply.
My figures are 100% correct if you take the OP's numbers.

Well, you could have checked the facts or source (airlineroute) given by the OP yourself before posting, as you always proclaim we should do first before posting

Also, it's arrogant of you to not check the facts posted by the OP with mine and write half a page that I won't waste my time reading,

Have you any idea about all the libraries you have written, wasting our time??

And about starting to be a grown up man, come on NCB...

[SabenaForever]

You may be right but if so, you have to blame the original poster for the wrong information and you only have yourself to blame for not correcting his mistakes in your first reply.
My figures are 100% correct if you take the OP's numbers.

Like 134flyer mentioned, before complaining please read the post correctly!

Well, you could have checked the facts or source (airlineroute) given by the OP yourself before posting, as you always proclaim we should do first before posting

Thanks 134flyer!




I hope we will stick to the topic now...

grtz

[tolipanebas]

I agree we should stick to the topic, but since I am personally attacked here, allow me to react first:

You have to blame the original poster for the wrong information and you only have yourself to blame for not correcting his mistakes in your first reply.

Oh I see, so it is my fault you got it all wrong!?!

My figures are 100% correct if you take the OP's numbers.

Your figures are 100% correct in your own imagination only, as so often. :shh:

Read the OP again CAREFULLY, with what you now know to be the case: it's all in there from the start.
As you'll notice when reading closely what is said there the OP is talking about specific and individual ROUTES, rather than DESTINATIONS, so whenever they talk about a reduction of frequencies on a certain route, it is to be taken absolute literally, rather than assuming the number of flights to the destinations involved in that route is also cut!
In the end you still have to do the math and add up the remaining frequencies with the newly announced routes which are all there too, to see the full picture after the transfer, but that's normal given it comes from airlineroute.net: they always do it that way.

Also, it's arrogant of you to not check the facts posted by the OP with mine and write half a page that I won't waste my time reading, full of critics and childish comments. Don't forget that people know that you're a SN pilot, and to the outside world you represent your colleagues as much as yourself.
Be ashmed of yourself, it's about time that you start acting like a grown man.

Is it my fault your mindset is inherently negative as demonstrated here once more?
You clearly misread the OP and assumed it to be saying all sort of things it doesn't say at all!
How is pointing out just that, being arrogant?
Seems to me you're just unable to accept having made an error here, something which isn't your first time, despite it really not being such a big issue you know, other than to your ego, it seems.

Now, back to topic:
These extra frequencies to DLA and NSI will keep the extra A330 on AFI employed 4 days out of 7... anybody wants to take a guess as to what will be done with it on the other 3 days?
Not that I know anything, of course...

[lindahabana]

Please tell us "What will be done with this A332 the 3 other days ?" Thx a lot

[cathay belgium]

Please tell us "What will be done with this A332 the 3 other days ?" Thx a lot

Ask Frank Sinatra.. start spreading the news !!!

CX-B

[RoMax]

Now, back to topic:
These extra frequencies to DLA and NSI will keep the extra A330 on AFI employed 4 days out of 7... anybody wants to take a guess as to what will be done with it on the other 3 days?
Not that I know anything, of course...

Is this included the possible end of ACC wich is currently operated 3 weekly (down from 4 weekly before) or with ACC still in the network?

If Abidjan is operating well this winter, and the early bookings for summer 2012 look good I could see a further increase of this route. Before the civil war it was operated 6/week, and seemed quite succesfull (don't know the details of course). Since this winter it is back to 4/week (after it was operated 2/week and later 3/week this summer), wonder if it can sustain more next summer or is that too early?
(btw, I don't say they have to increase ABJ, I just 'ask' if this could be possible)

Please tell us "What will be done with this A332 the 3 other days ?" Thx a lot

I wouldn't specify it to the A332 (yet). Cameroon and FIH will all be operated by A333's, and the A332 may not start a new route or new frequencies, but just taking over other existing flights, freeing up a A333 for new frequencies or/and new routes. Of course I have no idea IF that will be the case, but just to be sure. And it also depends on wich type will operate to JFK, I heard both the A333 and A332, but I don't know what it will really be.

[Flanker]

I see what happened.
The 2 non-stop flights described to NSI aren't non-stop flights, they're part of the NSI-FIH routing, which is bad communication given that every other routing has been described with tag-ons included.

I also misread the article as going from 2 weekly to 4 weekly iso 6 weekly, apologies for that, my mistake.

I thank the drama queen in Tolipanebas for pointing out to that error, and all his fellow followers for the marvelous chain of follow-up comments that resulted in a beautiful hurricane in a teacup.

In this case we can indeed talk about a transfer of LX's Cameroon operation to SN, which can be seen as a sign of commitment from LH.
It does give rise to hope for a full LH control by April, but it is and stays a "maybe".
It took 4 years to transfer these routes and we're not sure if LX dumped them because LH wants SN to operate it or if the route was no longer making (enough) money for LX or just as part of the exchange for ACC.

[tolipanebas]

I see what happened

Great! :clap:
BTW, I've explained all of that as clearly as I could already 25 posts ago or so, but then as you said yourself just recently in relation to that post of mine: you didn't want to waste your time reading it. :wtf:

II thank the drama queen in Tolipanebas for pointing out to that error, and all his fellow followers for the marvelous chain of follow-up comments that resulted in a beautiful hurricane in a teacup.

Do you take your tea with our without sugar; it seems to come with a bitter taste today...

In this case we can indeed talk about a transfer of LX's Cameroon operation to SN, which can be seen as a sign of commitment from LH.
It does give rise to hope for a full LH control by April, but it is and stays a "maybe".

Spring 2012 is no deadline for a full take-over, you know?
And even then, I am pretty sure you'll quickly point out the reversibility still, with the BD case in mind.
Oh well, even the Smurfs have a Grouchy Smurf, so why not this community, right?

[Air Key West]

If the additional frequencies to DLA and NSI will keep the extra A330 busy four days a week, what will it be used for the remaining three days ?

Would it make sense (or even be necessary) to keep it as a back-up plane for three days ? Just a question.
Or as Mr Boeing has suggested, b.air could increase frequencies to ABJ.
I'll take the liberty of adding another suggestion : add a weekly frequency to LFW and COO.

As to the second ex LX A330, will it not be sent to NYC ?

[134flyer]

If the additional frequencies to DLA and NSI will keep the extra A330 busy four days a week, what will it be used for the remaining three days ?

Would it make sense (or even be necessary) to keep it as a back-up plane for three days ? Just a question.
Or as Mr Boeing has suggested, b.air could increase frequencies to ABJ.
I'll take the liberty of adding another suggestion : add a weekly frequency to LFW and COO.

As to the second ex LX A330, will it not be sent to NYC ?

I know this is oversimplified, but each additional A330 can add about 6 weekly flights, so the 2 332 will add about 12 weekly flights, the other days are for mx and/or back-up (once again, oversimplified schedule). The new US flights will probably be operated 7 days a week, add the additional Cameroon flights, and you've already got 11 weekly flights. So I agree the extra one (or possibly two?) flights which then remain available can be used for ABJ, LFW and/or COO. All this not taking into account the possible loss of the ACC flights, which would open up other possibilities as well.

Others have been sceptical, but what about the rumours of LOS? Slightly different market, but apparently LOS is one of the biggest (if not the biggest) moneymaker for British Airways. Or perhaps BZV or LBV (even though LH flies there)? But then again, these 'new' AFI destinations might be too much of a stretch for next summer, while also starting up flights to the US and expanding to current AFI destinations.

[Bralo20]

About the LX, SN product. The seats of SN will be indeed (almost) the same as with LX (at least for business, don't know for economy). But that doesn't really mean the product of SN as a whole is simular. I think many business travellers between Europe (and VS) and Cameroon are not really happy to see LX ending the service, hopefully SN can offer a service wich is high enough to meet their demands once SN has the new interior on their long haul fleet.

The newest LX seat (which upon the SN seat will be based apparently):




A nice upgrade from the current seats. The screens of SN will even be bigger, LX has 10,4 or 12,1" screens (on the picture: 12,1") while SN has opted for 15" screens in business class and 9" in economy.

[Flanker]

Do you take your tea with our without sugar; it seems to come with a bitter taste today...

Not to worry, for the record, my purpose on the forum is very different than to justify myself in front of people I don't know.
Call it arrogance if you wish, but I have nothing to gain here other than to point to the obvious, so that manipulated decision-makers can read a distant second opinion that paints a less rosy picture than what their ambitious managers present. Also, said ambitious managers tend to lack the imagination or hindsight and culture of aviation, so I also like to share some inspiration, sometimes even push for it when I see no other options...

In the end, aviation is as simple a business as aluminium cans rivetted together that fly and transport people and things. Call it what you want, it's a stupid business that has only has a meaning if you can make money in it. Otherwise, you're just flying around aluminium cans filled with people, which is a waste of time and purpose. It would make more sense to manage a non-profit wherein you can actually help people/animals, etc...

To say something that is on-topic, I also think that Nigeria is a market that's too big to let go.
Especially now that there will be one or more connections to the US and a good product.
I'm not saying that it would be a huge money-maker, but it has strategical value as it will make money on itself and protect its other markets at the same time.
Air Key West's Guangzhou is also a city that is worth considering seriously. I would start-off China with Hong Kong, simply because of the lower risk, but certainly add Guangzhou and Shanghai at a later stage.

[RoMax]

B.o.t:
Yes I know how the LX business class looks, but I was more reffering to the overall service of SN. I wanted to make clear it's not just all about the seat. But anyway, I hope SN can indeed offer a good service (as I have no experience with their long haul service, but I heard it's not that bad, especially not in business, but that the cabins are pretty outdated).

For possible new destinations and the possible end of Accra. If ACC goes completely to LH this is not a reall replacement for LX in turn of the DLA/NSI flights. LX doesn't need a "replacement" from SN (except maybe for NBO, but don't think so), they can better use their planes in other markets. So basicly IF ACC goes to LH, SN should get a "replacement" for that from LH (of course no one can force LH to do that, and if they don't want it, they just don't do it, they are a commercial company and not an aid organisation after all)...and this does really ring a bell with me...Libreville.
I think Libreville would better suit SN's African network, and ACC LH's African network. I wouldn't be suprised to see this change in summer 2012. SN operates ACC 3 weekly, LH operates LBV 5 weekly but with a 738 of Privatair. Also ACC is now daily operated with a 738 of Privatair by LH. SN could operate LBV let's say 2-3 times a week and LH could operate some A333 flights again on the ACC route (when SN stops the route, LH can attract more pax in economy, many of these pax now choose for SN or another airline wich is stronger on the ACC market, wich is why LH decided to go for the 738 on that route, business demand is high enough, economy not, for SN it seems the other way around, low business demand, suficient economy demand).

[cnc]

its a transfer, not a trade so why is everyone so focussed on the "a destination for a destination"?

[RoMax]

its a transfer, not a trade so why is everyone so focussed on the "a destination for a destination"?

I'm not necessarily focused on "a destination for a destination", but it just seems logicall to me that IF(!) ACC goes to LH, that LBV (wich better suits SN in my opinion) would come to SN.

And secondly it's not "a destination for a destination", but it certainly is "capacity for capacity". With the power of the unions it's not so easy to take away something from an airline without giving something else back. This doesn't have to be a destination, it can also be capacity to another, existing destination. A loss in capacity by taking away a destination is not something the unions will easilly exept (especially when talking about a profitable destination).

[Air Key West]

Hi Flanker ! CAN was initially OO-ITR's idea (in another thread). So, he deserves the credit, if some members on the forum consider it to be a good suggestion.

[134flyer]

I think Libreville would better suit SN's African network, and ACC LH's African network. I wouldn't be suprised to see this change in summer 2012. SN operates ACC 3 weekly, LH operates LBV 5 weekly but with a 738 of Privatair. Also ACC is now daily operated with a 738 of Privatair by LH. SN could operate LBV let's say 2-3 times a week and LH could operate some A333 flights again on the ACC route (when SN stops the route, LH can attract more pax in economy, many of these pax now choose for SN or another airline wich is stronger on the ACC market, wich is why LH decided to go for the 738 on that route, business demand is high enough, economy not, for SN it seems the other way around, low business demand, suficient economy demand).

Maybe I'm wrong, and I don't remember where I read it, but IIRC, the LH staff at LBV is apparently, well let's say 'challenged' by the typical 'operational climate' in a Francophone African country... SN on the other hand is very experienced in these 'operational climates', so perhaps SN is indeed better suited to fly to LBV. But then again, isn't the reason that LH flies to LBV, because it's an oil destination (better connections via FRA than BRU)?

[RoMax]

Maybe I'm wrong, and I don't remember where I read it, but IIRC, the LH staff at LBV is apparently, well let's say 'challenged' by the typical 'operational climate' in a Francophone African country... SN on the other hand is very experienced in these 'operational climates', so perhaps SN is indeed better suited to fly to LBV. But then again, isn't the reason that LH flies to LBV, because it's an oil destination (better connections via FRA than BRU)?

Heard the same also, that LH is not really used to this kind of operations (the way of working in Africa, the typicall pax and mainly their luggage, the condition of the airports (altough I don't know if LBV is so bad, especially compared to some other SN destinations)...), a bit the same als DLA/NSI for LX.
SN indeed has much more experience with this, they operate to destinations much worser than Gabon.

And yes LBV attracts quite some oil passengers probably, that's probably also why they operate the route with a 738 of privatair with quite some business seats, but a rather low amount of economy seats (compared to a widebody). But the question is if LBV is so important they really need all these feed to FRA to get sufficient business pax, and if they can find enough economy pax. Actually the same counts for LOS. SN is improving it's network, including a US connection. But some important oil destinations are still not served...could be a problem, don't know, have not enough knowledge about that. Still hoping for a non-stop flight out of Houston by UA/CO. This could already help. Also Aberdeen could help, but with BMI Regional to be sold I think this is less likely.