Challenger down in Moscow? 13/02/2007

SN30952 · Post by **SN30952** » 13 Feb 2007, 16:21

Satelite news report a A310 down Near Moscow.
It seemed to be an ferry, with on board only its crew of 3
The A310 was bound to BER.
All info to be confirmed
News to follow.

Post by **ElcoB** » 13 Feb 2007, 16:27

Russia says small aircraft, not Airbus crashed

Source: Reuters

thomascookie · Post by **thomascookie** » 13 Feb 2007, 16:31

It's a Challenger-jet of a private Russian company.
Indeed only 3 POB but they survived ( good news).

This all according to HLN http://www.hln.be/hlns/cache/det/art_37 ... n=homeArt4

Don't mind the rest of the article an A310 of Germanwings (OMG)

Regards

Post by **ElcoB** » 13 Feb 2007, 16:33

MOSCOW, February 13 (RIA Novosti) - Two of four crewmembers of the Challenger-850 plane belonging to U.S. Ford Aero airline were injured in the crash at Moscow's Vnukovo airport, a spokesman for the Russian Transportation Ministry said Tuesday.

Two injured in U.S. plane crash at Moscow airport

SN30952 · Post by **SN30952** » 13 Feb 2007, 16:43

Russia says small aircraft, [url=ttp://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L13229740.htm]not Airbus crashed in a snow storm*[/url]
13 Feb 2007 14:49:20 GMT
Russian ministry said earlier that an Airbus A310 had crashed...

*
Place Temperature Humidity Pressure Conditions Wind
Moscow, Russia -5 °C 93% 29.77 in / 1008 hPa Heavy Showers Snow SE at 9 mph / 14 km/h / 4.0 m/s
METAR UUWW 131530Z 13004MPS 0900 R06/P1500D +SHSN VV003 M05/M06 Q1008 TEMPO 0500 +SHSN RMK 06522037 QBB100

fokker_f27 · Post by **fokker_f27** » 13 Feb 2007, 18:36

Very nice to hear that the crew and pax are safe.

Post by **ElcoB** » 15 Feb 2007, 14:53

SN30952 · Post by **SN30952** » 15 Feb 2007, 17:31

I suppose, it would not be easy to open the such a door, when the aircraft is lying upside down.

MrAirbus · Post by **MrAirbus** » 15 Feb 2007, 23:54

More and better pictures:

http://funlog.ru/pics/fotografii_samole ... :1719.html

tsv · Post by **tsv** » 21 Feb 2007, 14:26

Interesting to see spate of Western Aircraft incidents in Russia continues.

Zenfookpower · Post by **Zenfookpower** » 21 Feb 2007, 15:05

tsv wrote:Interesting to see spate of Western Aircraft incidents in Russia continues.

Since you raised the issue, if correct, any thoughts as to WHY..?

tsv · Post by **tsv** » 08 Mar 2007, 12:48

Difficult to pinpoint exact reasons for Western a/c crashing in Russia as every crash has different circumstances. However pilot training and poor weather seem to be common themes.

For many years western observers have assumed that higher crash rates in USSR/CIS were attributable to Soviet made planes being inferior to Western made aircraft. Interestingly it now appears increasingll likely that these assumptions were false.

As a statistician I think it is now fair to say that there is no statistical evidence that Western Manufactured aircraft are more safe than comparable Soviet manufactured aircraft, at least in the countries where they both operate.

Rather the discrepancy in crash rates appears to be related to the environment these aircraft work within rather than any defects in the aircraft themselves.

SN30952 · Post by **SN30952** » 08 Mar 2007, 16:32

tsv wrote:....Rather the discrepancy in crash rates appears to be related to the environment these aircraft work within rather than any defects in the aircraft themselves.

Indeed: operational conditions is one, age is an other.

In F1, you will see more crashes in one hour than on a Western highway, tsv.
That is indeed because of the environment these racing cars work in.
Defects are sometimes the reason of crashes.
But imho, is competition the main reason of accidents.

The competitive setting of contemporary aviation is also a reason for incidents, where in earlier days of aviation it was poor technology or technical failure.

And do not forget the human factor, see Why is it so dangerous to fly with Indonesian airlines?Posted: 08 Mar 2007 09:31 pm

sn-remember · Post by **sn-remember** » 08 Mar 2007, 17:42

tsv wrote:...Rather the discrepancy in crash rates appears to be related to the environment these aircraft work within rather than any defects in the aircraft themselves.

I appreciate your comment calling for care when comparing the quality of russian made aircrafts vs. western aircrafts.

Much has been said about it, however some russian built aircrafts used to operate in milder climates too (eastern Europe, Ukraine or China a.o.) and the accident rate there seemed also significantly higher...

On the other hand we should compare with those western aircraft operated in similar rough climates like in Alaska or Canada and there again I suspect the statistics to be unfavorable to soviet buit aircrafts.

But still let's be careful regarding the conclusions.
As mentioned, the human factor and the strict respect of all maintenance procedures is so vital.

Best regards
Christophe

tsv · Post by **tsv** » 09 Mar 2007, 23:07

By environment I meant the whole operating environment these aircraft exist in, ie maintenance standards, air traffic control systems, safety regulations, crew performance and climate - not just the climate.

Of course there have been crashes in China, Eastern Europe and other places but I would contend that the operating environment in these countries was no better (at the time of the crashes) than in Russia itself.

SN30952 · Post by **SN30952** » 10 Mar 2007, 08:38

You're also not without ignoring sla(vo)nicfatalism, aka necessitas per accidens-.

Aristotle is in no doubt that not everything that happens, happens of necessity.
He accepts indeed (19a23-5) that "What is, necessarily is, when it is; and what is not, necessarily is not, when it is not." But he goes on to say, "But not everything that is, necessarily is; and not everything that is not, necessarily is not."
(Aristotle, Categories and De Interpretatione translated for you).

I know this not very much acceptable in Western technological thinking... but that is the way is (was?)

In Flemish we say: 'put his head in front of the block', meaning do all possible. And that's what they did, dapo. In the competition with the West they dapo. Took tremendous risks. The same goes for their space discoveries, do we know how many died in tests an trials?

Remember The Man Who Knew Too Much? Doris Day is singing "Que Sera, Sera (Whatever Will Be, Will Be)" some song that intrigued me since I saw the movie.... and when I hear football fans singing it in Wembley's Cup final "Que Sera Sera, Whatever Will Be Will Be, We're Going to Wembley, Que Sera Sera!"
Football fans like to sing it, remember the penalty shoot out in the 2006 FIFA World Cup in Germany.

* accidental necessity