TUI fly Belgium in 2020

Join this forum to discuss the latest news that happened in the world of commercial aviation.

Moderator: Latest news team

Post Reply
737MAX
Posts: 449
Joined: 29 Aug 2017, 08:46

Re: TUI fly Belgium in 2020

Post by 737MAX »

flightlover wrote:
11 May 2020, 13:17
And fully packed "corona style" (one out of 3 seats empty)?
Nope, even corona style...

User avatar
sn26567
Posts: 36586
Joined: 13 Feb 2003, 00:00
Location: Rosières/Rozieren, Belgium
Contact:

Re: TUI fly Belgium in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

Why doesn't TUI Airlines Belgium ask Boeing for compensation for the 737 MAX debacle? That should make up for most of the negative 2019 figures.
André
ex Sabena #26567

737MAX
Posts: 449
Joined: 29 Aug 2017, 08:46

Re: TUI fly Belgium in 2020

Post by 737MAX »

sn26567 wrote:
11 May 2020, 19:02
Why doesn't TUI Airlines Belgium ask Boeing for compensation for the 737 MAX debacle? That should make up for most of the negative 2019 figures.
Indeed. They have been very silent on this matter...

DeltaWiskey
Posts: 591
Joined: 13 Oct 2010, 18:33

Re: TUI fly Belgium in 2020

Post by DeltaWiskey »

Passenger wrote:
11 May 2020, 15:52
TUI Airlines Belgium has just reported a terrible (financial) year: a loss of 74.559.513 €,
Thanks for the info. I hope this also opens the eyes of some other members on this board.

The max grounding is only one part of the story, the lease/loan is around $300k/month, or $14.4mill a year for 4 a/c. Together with some other sunk cost, a ballpark figure of €20 mill should cover the MAX grounding. I think the 737max story is used to cover up some other shortcomings as well.

Let's also keep in mind that is is just a one year figure and that the market has dramatically changed, 2020 should have looked a lot more positive for TB with the demise of their biggest competitor.

737MAX
Posts: 449
Joined: 29 Aug 2017, 08:46

Re: TUI fly Belgium in 2020

Post by 737MAX »

DeltaWiskey wrote:
12 May 2020, 09:40
Passenger wrote:
11 May 2020, 15:52
TUI Airlines Belgium has just reported a terrible (financial) year: a loss of 74.559.513 €,
Thanks for the info. I hope this also opens the eyes of some other members on this board.
Why? Do you think "those other members on this board" didn't know this? :?
What about the results of TUIFly BE since 2004...?
DeltaWiskey wrote:
12 May 2020, 09:40
The max grounding is only one part of the story, the lease/loan is around $300k/month, or $14.4mill a year for 4 a/c. Together with some other sunk cost, a ballpark figure of €20 mill should cover the MAX grounding. I think the 737max story is used to cover up some other shortcomings as well.
Do you think the wet-leases were for free? In a market where wet-leases are highly demanded...leasing extra planes at the last minute is not cheap.

This also caused a lack of spare A/C and huge costs due to EU compensation laws. The amount of unforeseen subcharters was crazy in 2019. This is mainly caused by the 737 MAX grounding, side effects for sure but extremely expensive ones... very far from your 20€ mil.
DeltaWiskey wrote:
12 May 2020, 09:40
Let's also keep in mind that is is just a one year figure and that the market has dramatically changed, 2020 should have looked a lot more positive for TB with the demise of their biggest competitor.
2020 was set to be a record year, unfortunately now everybody (or almost) is fighting for survival.

DeltaWiskey
Posts: 591
Joined: 13 Oct 2010, 18:33

Re: TUI fly Belgium in 2020

Post by DeltaWiskey »

@737MAX: You don't have to feel offended. I wrote "some other members", this board almost exclusively discusses SN, almost nothing about TB is discussed, while it is the 2nd largest Belgian based airline. TUI fly deserves more attention on this board.

Numbers are numbers, these are objective.

In the wake of 737MAX grouding, EU261/DBC is only a valid excuse for the first 2 weeks immediately after the grounding, all the rest is crisis management. (I have >20y experience in the aviation industry, I know a thing or two)

For example: southwest was (is) also severely affected by 737 max, they "only" reported a 5% lower profit.

User avatar
sn26567
Posts: 36586
Joined: 13 Feb 2003, 00:00
Location: Rosières/Rozieren, Belgium
Contact:

Re: TUI fly Belgium in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

Thus, I repeat my question: why don't we see the black figures "Boeing compensation for 737 MAX grounding" in their annual report?
André
ex Sabena #26567

Poiu
Posts: 822
Joined: 14 Nov 2015, 09:38

Re: TUI fly Belgium in 2020

Post by Poiu »

sn26567 wrote:
12 May 2020, 16:46
Thus, I repeat my question: why don't we see the black figures "Boeing compensation for 737 MAX grounding" in their annual report?
Because negotiations were still ongoing at the end of the financial year, maybe.
Did you see an agreement between TUI and Boeing? Compensation agreements are often confidential.
Compensation can come in different forms, it doesn’t have to be cash by the way.

User avatar
sn26567
Posts: 36586
Joined: 13 Feb 2003, 00:00
Location: Rosières/Rozieren, Belgium
Contact:

Re: TUI fly Belgium in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

Poiu wrote:
12 May 2020, 16:54
Compensation can come in different forms, it doesn’t have to be cash by the way.
I know that: in the case of Ryanair, it comes in the form of a serious discount on future deliveries. And since today, as an exclusivity on future deliveries (as there will no longer be Airbus deliveries to Lauda).
André
ex Sabena #26567

LJ
Posts: 877
Joined: 14 Mar 2004, 00:00
Location: Heiloo NL

Re: TUI fly Belgium in 2020

Post by LJ »

sn26567 wrote:
12 May 2020, 16:56
Poiu wrote:
12 May 2020, 16:54
Compensation can come in different forms, it doesn’t have to be cash by the way.
I know that: in the case of Ryanair, it comes in the form of a serious discount on future deliveries. And since today, as an exclusivity on future deliveries (as there will no longer be Airbus deliveries to Lauda).
Ryanair hasn''t got a deal yet and a deal is postponed till the MAX is back in the air (despite MOLs deadline of May 19th).
Poiu wrote:
12 May 2020, 16:54
Did you see an agreement between TUI and Boeing? Compensation agreements are often confidential.
The content of the agreement may be confidential, the existence of such a deal should be disclosed by TUI as it's listed and having such an agreement is information shareholders should know.

Centrino
Posts: 2
Joined: 08 Feb 2019, 14:04

Re: TUI fly Belgium in 2020

Post by Centrino »

I had a booking for september for BRU-MIA, round trip. Today TUIfly let me know that the flights are cancelled and I will receive a voucher.

Passenger
Posts: 6709
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: TUI fly Belgium in 2020

Post by Passenger »

Centrino wrote:
15 May 2020, 15:07
I had a booking for september for BRU-MIA, round trip. Today TUIfly let me know that the flights are cancelled and I will receive a voucher.
They can't refund you right now: allmost all their money was sent to the German cashpool.

Maybe there will be news on 27th May, at the International Ondernemingsraad/Conseil d'Entreprise. But don't expect too much: the biggest Belgian trade union has already told that they will play it hard ("...Als ACV-Transcom zullen we er alles aan doen de tewerkstelling ten volle te verdedigen en te bewaren...").

737MAX
Posts: 449
Joined: 29 Aug 2017, 08:46

Re: TUI fly Belgium in 2020

Post by 737MAX »

Passenger wrote:
15 May 2020, 21:42
Centrino wrote:
15 May 2020, 15:07
I had a booking for september for BRU-MIA, round trip. Today TUIfly let me know that the flights are cancelled and I will receive a voucher.
They can't refund you right now: allmost all their money was sent to the German cashpool.

Maybe there will be news on 27th May, at the International Ondernemingsraad/Conseil d'Entreprise. But don't expect too much: the biggest Belgian trade union has already told that they will play it hard ("...Als ACV-Transcom zullen we er alles aan doen de tewerkstelling ten volle te verdedigen en te bewaren...").
:roll:

Passenger
Posts: 6709
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: TUI fly Belgium in 2020

Post by Passenger »

737MAX wrote:
15 May 2020, 22:37
Passenger wrote:
15 May 2020, 21:42
Centrino wrote:
15 May 2020, 15:07
I had a booking for september for BRU-MIA, round trip. Today TUIfly let me know that the flights are cancelled and I will receive a voucher.
They can't refund you right now: allmost all their money was sent to the German cashpool.

Maybe there will be news on 27th May, at the International Ondernemingsraad/Conseil d'Entreprise. But don't expect too much: the biggest Belgian trade union has already told that they will play it hard ("...Als ACV-Transcom zullen we er alles aan doen de tewerkstelling ten volle te verdedigen en te bewaren...").
:roll:
Strange reaction. Are you really unaware of both facts?

737MAX
Posts: 449
Joined: 29 Aug 2017, 08:46

Re: TUI fly Belgium in 2020

Post by 737MAX »

Mister Passenger, there is no need to answer more than a smiley. You are always right ;)

Passenger
Posts: 6709
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: TUI fly Belgium in 2020

Post by Passenger »

737MAX wrote:
15 May 2020, 23:24
Mister Passenger, there is no need to answer more than a smiley. You are always right ;)
My question was not "are my facts right?", but "are you aware of the dramatic financial situation at both TUI Airlines Belgium and TUI Belgium?"

User avatar
Atlantis
Posts: 4426
Joined: 12 Apr 2005, 00:00

Re: TUI fly Belgium in 2020

Post by Atlantis »

TUI Fly is going to axe 6 destinations. Miami and 5 European ones, most Greece destinations

User avatar
sn26567
Posts: 36586
Joined: 13 Feb 2003, 00:00
Location: Rosières/Rozieren, Belgium
Contact:

Re: TUI fly Belgium in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

The corona crisis sometimes provides for extraordinary itineraries due to the shortage of cargo aircraft.

TUIfly Belgium B787 OO-LOE is currently flying over the Indian Ocean between Seoul Incheon (ICN/RKSI) and La Réunion (RUN/FMEE) as JAF8504! The origin of the cargo was Guangzhou.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... e#248994a6
Capture.JPG
See also the story on the repatriation of Indonesian sailors from Hamburg to Denpasar by another TUIfly Belgium flight:

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/tui- ... m-hamburg/
André
ex Sabena #26567

Passenger
Posts: 6709
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: TUI fly Belgium in 2020

Post by Passenger »

Whilst Lufthansa seems to have secured the necessary funds to survive the Corona pandemic, things are getting worse for TUI AG (TUIfly Belgiums’ parent company).

Handelsblatt reported on Wednesday (20/05) that Moody’s has lowered the TUI AG rating with two levels (and TUI AG was already “speculative” before hell broke loose). Moody’s expects that the 1,8 Billion German state aid won’t be enough. Rumours that TUI has asked another 1,5 Billion state aid are denied by TUI’s head office Hannover. “TUI’s CEO Fritz Joussen is under high pressure”, Handelsblatt reports.
https://www.handelsblatt.com/unternehme ... 48172.html

Yahoo Finance (U.K.) reported on 17th May that Citibank (UK) expects that an urgent capital raise of £500M (by the shareholders) is needed.
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/coron ... 01684.html

Frightening outlook for both TUI Belgium and TUIfly Belgium, who had parked their funds at the TUI AG cashpool in Germany. A few weeks ago, the Belgian press reported that TUI asked for 200M EUR Belgian state aid. Has that amount been raised afterwards? Any news on that?

PttU
Posts: 368
Joined: 24 Nov 2015, 15:07

Re: TUI fly Belgium in 2020

Post by PttU »

sn26567 wrote:
21 May 2020, 16:57
See also the story on the repatriation of Indonesian sailors from Hamburg to Denpasar by another TUIfly Belgium flight:

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/tui- ... m-hamburg/
And to make it even more international: the airplane is registered in the Netherlands :D

Post Reply