They have been trying that for a long time... The reasoning is as logical as it is simple.
The reality however is a whole different issue, and I don't think it's likely to change soon.
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They have been trying that for a long time... The reasoning is as logical as it is simple.
Well this started with a strike and continued with atcos saying 'screw your non stop growing demand for more flexibility and more working days to fix the staff shortage you are responsible for'. There is no end to this, and this is not a workable 'solution' anymore, so we will do less extra. (Still doing more than in our working agreement)
When a fish says he’s not a fish, does it make him less of a fish?
The end you are referring to means finding an agreement together.mvg wrote: ↑04 May 2019, 18:33 @ Phoenixx
"Staff is screwed up by the management" "Employees do not want to cooperate anymore" "No respect" "No end"
We have discussed all this and there will have to be an end. That means find an agreement.
You give interesting examples in which there is no in between:
- one night counts for one day or for two
- parental leave granted according to the law or not granted
- you let people volunteer to work extra shifts or force them
- follow (or not) the rules regarding training, which means respecting seniority
These are probably four very hot topics. If there is no in between, one side will have to give away something: what are Atcos ready to give away and what do they want to keep?
As a neutral spectator, the four hot topics hereabove are straight forward:
- one night counts for one day, as it does in any other job. In your case, the request from management is to make it count for one day for planning purposes only. You get your sleep day and the hours are paid. But the sleep day counts as a day off in the roster for the counting of the days worked in a row. It wasn't like that before, although nothing was ever put on paper. Atco's received it as a present but now that there is an important staff shortage, it's not possible anymore. That does not even change the number of hours worked weekly or monhtly. Anything above 35 hours per week is claimable back (in days off or paid).
Of course you are working much more than that now but lots of trainees are coming. Give them time to check out. Many Atcos are about to retire: many have accepted to stay longer. There might be more who elect to stay than you imagine.
- parental leave granted according to the law: of course an employer has to respect the law. But what should a management do if it is impossible to grant parental leave without putting the business continuity into trouble? What would you do in their place? Let everyone who wishes to work 4/5 days or half time or be at home during 3 or 4 months (parental leave) do so? Even if that means: 1) not enough people to be rostered 2) make those who don't take parental leave work more (direct and unavoidable consequence)
Can't you find a compromise like: those who wait 3 years (till there is more personal) to take their parental leave will get 25% more? Honestly, it's terrible not to get the parental leave as it is requested but it's a suicide to approve it when you are so short of staff...
- forcing people to work: of course this is unacceptable. What is meant by forcing? There are rules that define how a roster can be changed without the approval of an Atco. With how much notice it has to happen. What are those rules? And what is management doing?
- the seniority rule: the big thing! When an airline hires a captain from another company to work straigth away in the left seat, where is the seniority rule and what do other pilots say?
It's true that the current situation is partly due to bad management. It looks like they have some support from "above". Many companies have had to rationalise over the last 20 years: look at airlines. The same is unavoidable for ATC and it has happened in many countries already. It's impossible that Atcos keep their package (it has been described enough) that dates back from maybe 30 years ago.
Ofcourse management doesn't need to do this, our salary alone is good enough to make half of Belgium regard us as spoiled and to justify any and all situations for them, but they do it anyway to make the doubters choose a side and to make critical thinkers doubt. Look at the posts when I started responding here if you think my statement is wrong. Misinformation is a very powerful tool.sean1982 wrote: ↑04 May 2019, 18:44 When a fish says he’s not a fish, does it make him less of a fish?
When you’re in a situation for long enough its quite common to lose touch with reality. Im sure management doesnt need to play the mentioned card because when you honestly present your working conditions to the general public, many of whom also dont have a Good work-life balance and work for a lot less money, They will feel that you’re spoiled anyway. To say it in brexit terms, you can have the cake and eat it at the Same time
I have read everything and agree with some of it but feel like the ATCO's have lost touch with reality a bit. Compare what you have with what Joe Public has and can you then say hand on heart your working conditions are hard? You could have gone without the sarcastic answer.Phoenixx wrote: ↑04 May 2019, 20:32
Ofcourse management doesn't need to do this, our salary alone is good enough to make half of Belgium regard us as spoiled and to justify any and all situations for them, but they do it anyway to make the doubters choose a side and to make critical thinkers doubt. Look at the posts when I started responding here if you think my statement is wrong. Misinformation is a very powerful tool.sean1982 wrote: ↑04 May 2019, 18:44 When a fish says he’s not a fish, does it make him less of a fish?
When you’re in a situation for long enough its quite common to lose touch with reality. Im sure management doesnt need to play the mentioned card because when you honestly present your working conditions to the general public, many of whom also dont have a Good work-life balance and work for a lot less money, They will feel that you’re spoiled anyway. To say it in brexit terms, you can have the cake and eat it at the Same time
But thank you for the 2 clever quotes( still wondering if they refer to management or to me, they are just too smart), the quick and unmotivated judgement, answering completely besides the point of the post you quoted 1 sentence out of and ignoring nearly everything I have been extensively explaining for the last 10 pages. Gonna go have some cake, fish love cake.
And you could have gone without the the implied insult or the wise quotes but here we are.sean1982 wrote: ↑04 May 2019, 21:38I have read everything and agree with some of it but feel like the ATCO's have lost touch with reality a bit. Compare what you have with what Joe Public has and can you then say hand on heart your working conditions are hard? You could have gone without the sarcastic answer.Phoenixx wrote: ↑04 May 2019, 20:32
Ofcourse management doesn't need to do this, our salary alone is good enough to make half of Belgium regard us as spoiled and to justify any and all situations for them, but they do it anyway to make the doubters choose a side and to make critical thinkers doubt. Look at the posts when I started responding here if you think my statement is wrong. Misinformation is a very powerful tool.sean1982 wrote: ↑04 May 2019, 18:44 When a fish says he’s not a fish, does it make him less of a fish?
When you’re in a situation for long enough its quite common to lose touch with reality. Im sure management doesnt need to play the mentioned card because when you honestly present your working conditions to the general public, many of whom also dont have a Good work-life balance and work for a lot less money, They will feel that you’re spoiled anyway. To say it in brexit terms, you can have the cake and eat it at the Same time
But thank you for the 2 clever quotes( still wondering if they refer to management or to me, they are just too smart), the quick and unmotivated judgement, answering completely besides the point of the post you quoted 1 sentence out of and ignoring nearly everything I have been extensively explaining for the last 10 pages. Gonna go have some cake, fish love cake.
Where did you see an insult? implied or otherwise?Phoenixx wrote: ↑04 May 2019, 23:25
And you could have gone without the the implied insult or the wise quotes but here we are.
If i compare what we have now, sure we have a good thing going.
We work way too much and have to accept way too many violations, but yes.
But compare that to where the CEO wants to go, and it's a whole other story.
You use smart phrase about fish without realizing the implied message?sean1982 wrote: ↑04 May 2019, 23:41Where did you see an insult? implied or otherwise?Phoenixx wrote: ↑04 May 2019, 23:25
And you could have gone without the the implied insult or the wise quotes but here we are.
If i compare what we have now, sure we have a good thing going.
We work way too much and have to accept way too many violations, but yes.
But compare that to where the CEO wants to go, and it's a whole other story.
He probably wants to go to an environment where there are less violations because you have to be more flexible, like 100.000 companies have done before him in the last couple of years. That's the way forward if you want a company to stay alive.
I didn't read everything, but this remark is a different discussion.Phoenixx wrote: ↑05 May 2019, 08:01 You use smart phrase about fish without realizing the implied message?
He wants to go to an environment with less violations by changing rules and laws to excempt himself from them and to create more exceptions he can use, not by improving working conditions so he can actually follow them. This is not a rough patch before it gets better, this is the stage where he is still technically breaking all rules because he didnt manage to change them yet.
There is a major difference, and this is not the way forward at all, this is next level egoism and advanced lawlessness.
Hear hearBracebrace wrote: ↑05 May 2019, 11:04I didn't read everything, but this remark is a different discussion.Phoenixx wrote: ↑05 May 2019, 08:01 You use smart phrase about fish without realizing the implied message?
He wants to go to an environment with less violations by changing rules and laws to excempt himself from them and to create more exceptions he can use, not by improving working conditions so he can actually follow them. This is not a rough patch before it gets better, this is the stage where he is still technically breaking all rules because he didnt manage to change them yet.
There is a major difference, and this is not the way forward at all, this is next level egoism and advanced lawlessness.
Well, unfortunately this is the way aviation has evolved the last 30 years. Pilots, cabin crew, maintenance, desk people... we have all seen our working conditions deteriorate and it is not stopping. Unfortunately pilots and cabin crew are the ones sitting in the tube. Who is the most responsible for safety? Cabin crew in the end, to get the morning-beer drinking pax out. What are there working conditions? Shitty as hell.
The days of state funded national carriers is almost over. We are privatised. There is no reason why ATC should not be privatised as well.
You can blame your boss as much as you want, you are in the wrong business. If he doesn't do it, the next one will. Not because he wants, because he has to, because it is his job.
Welcome to aviation. Either you stay and you accept, or you leave. Like many pilots, cabin crew, maintenance people have done. We all work 30' extra before and 30' extra after the flight compared to our rosters, we all have to give the last minute flexibility to the company, and we all get blamed in the end because we missed a single minute somewhere...
But I still love my job to death, and in some rather strange way, I love my company and want to make it work for the company.
A good lesson for all those who want to join us.
Sounds like you're reverting to immature logic there, 'we can't have it so you can't either'. So you're blaming us for not rolling over and playing dead when the boss says we should because the others do it?Bracebrace wrote: ↑05 May 2019, 11:04 I didn't read everything, but this remark is a different discussion.
Well, unfortunately this is the way aviation has evolved the last 30 years. Pilots, cabin crew, maintenance, desk people... we have all seen our working conditions deteriorate and it is not stopping. Unfortunately pilots and cabin crew are the ones sitting in the tube. Who is the most responsible for safety? Cabin crew in the end, to get the morning-beer drinking pax out. What are theIR working conditions? Shitty as hell.
The days of state funded national carriers is almost over. We are privatised. There is no reason why ATC should not be privatised as well. You can blame your boss as much as you want, you are in the wrong business. If he doesn't do it, the next one will. Not because he wants, because he has to, because it is his job. He might be able to do it in a more "fashioned" way, but he will do it.
Welcome to aviation. Either you stay and you accept, or you leave. Like many pilots, cabin crew, maintenance people have done. We all work 30' extra before and 30' extra after the flight compared to our rosters, we all have to give the last minute flexibility to the company (I just heard we went down 20% on crew per aircraft last year...), and we all get blamed in the end because we missed a single minute somewhere...
But I still love my job to death, and in some rather strange way, I love my company and want to make it work for the company.
I understand your "fight", and I respect it, I really do. Try as hard as you can. BUT, stop making my life shitty in the process. Because you are... and MY boss is requiring more flexibility from me as well, because of what YOU do. And I'm getting tired of it, my wife is getting tired of it, my kids are getting tired of it, and my boss does a fantastic job understanding this but still requires flexibility to handle what you create.
A good lesson for all those who want to join us.