Social actions at air navigation service provider skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

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sn26567
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by sn26567 »

If you think that Belgian ATC has a record, read this: Ryanair CMO Kenny Jacobs said at the CAPA Summit today: "Staff shortages are the biggest challenge in ATC management in Europe, particularly in Barcelona, Marseille and Karlsruhe".
André
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mvg
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by mvg »

When was the airspace closed due to staff shortage in Barcelona, Marseille and Karlsruhe?
If we start to believe what people from Ryanair say...

flightlover
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by flightlover »

mvg wrote:
02 May 2019, 16:40
When was the airspace closed due to staff shortage in Barcelona, Marseille and Karlsruhe?
If we start to believe what people from Ryanair say...
maybe not closed, but restricted in numbers quite often.

Out off experience I can tell you that even at the calm moments of the day (at BRU) my patience has been tested quite extensively. Often the planes got slots well past their foreseen departure time. Reason given was often due to atc restrictions. And I can hardly believe they were all due to under staffing at Skeyes.

mvg
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by mvg »

flightlover wrote:
02 May 2019, 17:21
mvg wrote:
02 May 2019, 16:40
When was the airspace closed due to staff shortage in Barcelona, Marseille and Karlsruhe?
If we start to believe what people from Ryanair say...
maybe not closed, but restricted in numbers quite often.

Out off experience I can tell you that even at the calm moments of the day (at BRU) my patience has been tested quite extensively. Often the planes got slots well past their foreseen departure time. Reason given was often due to atc restrictions. And I can hardly believe they were all due to under staffing at Skeyes.
When fully staffed Belgian ATC almost never puts restrictions (except due to weather) on inbound or outbound traffic to/from EBBR so what you mention is for sure caused by other ATC units, you are right.

Nevertheless, as we all know, a maximum sector capacity can be reached (even when fully staffed) because there is a limit beyond which it’s not workable (based on the amount of aircraft intended to fly in a defined airspace).
As far as I know, DFS is not experiencing a staff shortage. They are even above required numbers because they are planning a complete system change which will require to work with extra people (shadowing).
Karlsruhe sectors are thus most of the time restricted due to ATC capacity (simply too much traffic), which isn’t necessarily connected to staffing levels.
I believe it’s the same for Barcelona and Marseille (and many other places in Europe).
It’s for sure frustrating for pilots, airlines and passengers. It’s also frustrating for a controller when a pilot is saying that a delay is due to air traffic control when it’s due to something totally different (paperwork, technical, and so on).

flightlover
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by flightlover »

mvg wrote:
02 May 2019, 18:25

When fully staffed Belgian ATC almost never puts restrictions (except due to weather) on inbound or outbound traffic to/from EBBR so what you mention is for sure caused by other ATC units, you are right.

Nevertheless, as we all know, a maximum sector capacity can be reached (even when fully staffed) because there is a limit beyond which it’s not workable (based on the amount of aircraft intended to fly in a defined airspace).
As far as I know, DFS is not experiencing a staff shortage. They are even above required numbers because they are planning a complete system change which will require to work with extra people (shadowing).
Karlsruhe sectors are thus most of the time restricted due to ATC capacity (simply too much traffic), which isn’t necessarily connected to staffing levels.
I believe it’s the same for Barcelona and Marseille (and many other places in Europe).
It’s for sure frustrating for pilots, airlines and passengers. It’s also frustrating for a controller when a pilot is saying that a delay is due to air traffic control when it’s due to something totally different (paperwork, technical, and so on).
I'm just a push back driver/Headset operator so I will always have second hand info on reasons why a slot has been given. But I'm almost always sure I can trust on being informed about the right reason as part of my job is forwarding messages from the crew to loadmaster, airline rep and/or technician (and other way around).

737MAX
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by 737MAX »

flightlover wrote:
02 May 2019, 19:19
mvg wrote:
02 May 2019, 18:25

When fully staffed Belgian ATC almost never puts restrictions (except due to weather) on inbound or outbound traffic to/from EBBR so what you mention is for sure caused by other ATC units, you are right.

Nevertheless, as we all know, a maximum sector capacity can be reached (even when fully staffed) because there is a limit beyond which it’s not workable (based on the amount of aircraft intended to fly in a defined airspace).
As far as I know, DFS is not experiencing a staff shortage. They are even above required numbers because they are planning a complete system change which will require to work with extra people (shadowing).
Karlsruhe sectors are thus most of the time restricted due to ATC capacity (simply too much traffic), which isn’t necessarily connected to staffing levels.
I believe it’s the same for Barcelona and Marseille (and many other places in Europe).
It’s for sure frustrating for pilots, airlines and passengers. It’s also frustrating for a controller when a pilot is saying that a delay is due to air traffic control when it’s due to something totally different (paperwork, technical, and so on).
I'm just a push back driver/Headset operator so I will always have second hand info on reasons why a slot has been given. But I'm almost always sure I can trust on being informed about the right reason as part of my job is forwarding messages from the crew to loadmaster, airline rep and/or technician (and other way around).
There is indeed absolutely no reason for a pilot to lie about this (or for everything, actually).

Most of the slots nowadays are due to ATC related issues. Whether it’s due to staff shortage, maximum capacity, bad airspace structures or whatever the cause may be, it’s a reality. Nobody can ignore that.

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Acid-drop »

sn26567 wrote:
02 May 2019, 16:09
If you think that Belgian ATC has a record, read this: Ryanair CMO Kenny Jacobs said at the CAPA Summit today: "Staff shortages are the biggest challenge in ATC management in Europe, particularly in Barcelona, Marseille and Karlsruhe".
Its time we stop with the borders from the middle age and create a central european unit... or is that so crazy ?
My messages reflect my personal opinion which may be different than yours. I beleive a forum is made to create a debate so I encourage people to express themselves, the way they want, with the ideas they want. I expect the same understanding in return.

Bracebrace
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Bracebrace »

mvg wrote:
02 May 2019, 18:25
I believe it’s the same for Barcelona and Marseille (and many other places in Europe).
With slots of 1 hour and more in the middle of the night? Don't think so. Marseille seems to be the problem. I have a feeling they "organize" themselves so that sectors with the least traffic become restricted (nighttime, region between Marseille and Corsica/Sardinia, much less problems - so far - for the "overland" flights). It was like this last summer, slots are coming back with the rising temperatures...

Phoenixx
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx »

I would like to clarify something regarding these last posts; the cause for the flow measures. I can not speak for other ansps, but I can clarify what I know from experience in Belgocontrol.

The management/hr/planning department plans for a certain number of atcos per shift, and these staff numbers come with a certain inherent maximum capacity. This capacity number depends both on the staff and on the airspace itself (weather and other factors are left out of this explanation as they result in their own specific flow measures), with all operational positions filled, the capacity number is determined by the airspace itself; size, both lateral and vertical (number of levels), airport capacity, airways, ...
When this number is reached during a certain period or there is a risk this number will be exceeded (deducted from the number of flightplans filing through a specific sector with a buffer in time for each flight, both backwards and forwards), there will be flow measures due to 'atc capacity', spreading traffic over a greater period of time.
When there is a shortage of staff compared to this optimal or planned staff number set forward by the ansp, the capacity the unit can handle is reduced because of this, and flow measures should be put in place with the reason 'atc staffing'.

So far I have probably not added much new knowledge, however the reason I am explaining this is the current situation at Belgocontrol.
As a respons the the possible fines, Belgocontrol management has recently decided to reduce staffing numbers in canac for each shift during the day in each unit.
You may remember we suggested this before and in the beginning of negotiations to create a more workable situation and to avoid closures, to no avail.
The official explanation is that this has been decided to give atcos more time off, to reduce the number of consecutive days.
If that was the actual reason, it would have been in every newspaper in the country because they 'gave in' to our demand of the high number of (consecutive) shifts, they are listening and working towards a solution and here is the proof.
However, I doubt any of you actually read this somewhere, I know I haven't.

As a result of this new target staffing, the flow measures during the day that used to be because of 'atc staffing' are now due to 'atc capacity' since there is no staff shortage compared to the target staffing anymore, and so the flow measures are not there because we are short on staff, but because the unit can not handle the capacity demand.
The fact that a week ago there were frequent measures due to staffing is irrelevant, the current target numbers are the determining factor.
Pilots flying the belgian airspace should ask the delivery position for the sector and the reason for their slot, you will notice a remarkable increase in 'atc capacity in a Belgian sector'.

If you wonder about the real reasons for this, there are quite a few.
- Flow measures due to staffing make the CEO and his policy the last 5 years look bad while measures due to capacity make it sound like we have a very desired, full-booked, popular airspace.
The airspace users pay for a service and they are not receiving it, staffing puts the responsibility with the management, capacity does not (necessarily)
- Apart from just sounding bad, there are also actual fines for ansps that have too many slots due to staffing, again a matter of responsibility.
- They need to avoid closures at all costs. Closures during the day are not exactly a risk, but staffing numbers during the night are much lower giving a smaller operational buffer. If an atco would call sick and not be replaced, there would be image damage again, lawsuits, ...
- By reducing staffing during the day they hope to create goodwill again for atcos to take a nightshift from a sick colleague if needed, or ultimately have more staff at home they can commandeer (still illegal but still happens) without affecting their day time staffing, thereby avoiding closures at night AND flow due to staffing by day.
- The reason they do not communicate this at all to the public or the airspace users is because of the result and once again the responsibility. Reduced capacity means a lot of flights during the day get small-medium slots. The combined delay of all these aircrafts, let alone passengers, would be significantly higher than that of a 3-hour night closure (but there is no quarter million euro fine for delays). However, since the cause is 'atc capacity' and not staffing, they avoid being held responsible by airlines or airports as it happened with the night closures.

And just to be complete, management has been pushing supervisors for years already to have flow measures assigned to 'atc capacity' when the real cause was staffing shortage, to avoid a fine and to increse their numbers (and their bonus).

So while this is actually a step in the right direction, it was taken for the wrong reasons and far too late.
We are still awaiting news from the negotiations, silence unfortunately does not mean good news in this situation, on the contrary.

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx »

Acid-drop wrote:
02 May 2019, 23:15
Its time we stop with the borders from the middle age and create a central european unit... or is that so crazy ?
They have been trying that for a long time... The reasoning is as logical as it is simple.
The reality however is a whole different issue, and I don't think it's likely to change soon.



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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Acid-drop »

An agreement.on what ?
If its really about staff shortage there is nothing to agree about... proof (if needed) that we are beeing manipulated by both sides.
My messages reflect my personal opinion which may be different than yours. I beleive a forum is made to create a debate so I encourage people to express themselves, the way they want, with the ideas they want. I expect the same understanding in return.

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by jan_olieslagers »

An agreement on how to handle the (indeed generally recognised) staff shortage, perhaps?
But I agree that the situation remains smelly - as I stated long before.

Phoenixx
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx »

Acid-drop wrote:
04 May 2019, 13:31
An agreement.on what ?
If its really about staff shortage there is nothing to agree about... proof (if needed) that we are beeing manipulated by both sides.
Well this started with a strike and continued with atcos saying 'screw your non stop growing demand for more flexibility and more working days to fix the staff shortage you are responsible for'. There is no end to this, and this is not a workable 'solution' anymore, so we will do less extra. (Still doing more than in our working agreement)
So they have been negotiating measures to deal with the staff shortage, both temporary and long term, roster changes and the whole rostering system, the continuous violations on our rights and the internal rules (in favor of the holy grail of operational continuity), the regulations regarding standbys, ...
To management, the only thing that matters is that their show goes on and that it changes to what they want, at all cost.
Employees are done with this and don't cooperate anymore.
Management cant get the -impossible- flexibility needed to resolve the operational staffshortage from goodwill, because they have done almost nothing to create any with the atcos, and they can't buy it anymore since there is almost no more intrest for extra fees in return for flexibility.
Really, what do you think they have been negotiating on for so long? Did you not read the last 10 pages?

The staff shortage still has to be dealt with to minimize the impact on airports, airlines and passengers, and both parties want to see this dealt with as good as possible.
Problem is that we want this done with respect for the employees, their private lives and their rights, and management wants this done with the highest possible numbers they can get.
There are a few crucial points where the parties have complete opposite views and there is no real middle ground to settle on.
(For example, a night is one day vs two? Cant be one and a half.// They either follow the law regarding parental leaves or they don't. There is no in between. // You let people volunteer for extra shifts or shift changes or you force them to do so. you could say we force them if they don't volunteer, but in reality that is just forcing and there is no legal ground to do so. // they either follow the rules regarding training and seniority or they don't. // ... )
Because of this it is impossible to please both parties and to find a decent moderate view in between and both parties refuse to accept the other ones 'final proposal', as it is nowhere near their own and it involves dropping several of their own absolute base demands, and this is something the CEO refuses to do.
Ofcourse stubbornness in one party and a refusal to change certain demands creates the same behaviour on the other side. (After all why would you give in to something if the other one is not willing to do the same?)
Last edited by Phoenixx on 04 May 2019, 14:45, edited 1 time in total.

Phoenixx
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx »

And do I even have to bother saying that the claim in the media that ACV-Transcom demands even less than a 32 hour week for even more money than the pay raise management supposedly offered is a blatant lie?

We have a 35 hour weeks standard, during the past years, atcos had to take 4-5 extra shifts per month and there was still a shortage.
Lately they were offering ridiculous fees for atcos that volunteered to take extra open shifts and everybody refused because money is no longer the priority, a balance in work-private life is.
And now they're gonna solve it with a 32 hour week and we supposedly want more money for that?
Whoever believes this story as it is being presented is truely naive.
That means 4 days of working and 3 days off, for way more money than we get now for the intended 5 days of working- 3 days off. That would be genius. That is not the case.

Management probably found an alternative way to force their 'vision' onto us and therefore needed a way out of these negotiations so they can do what they want at the PC next week, that's all. Same old tactic, make a little -logical- concession to pretend that we're the good guys, create a lie and then use 'the impossible spoiled atcos' as a lightning rod and make sure nobody supports them when we finally do what we want, no matter how illegal and wrong it is
We'll see on Friday if that is the case.

mvg
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by mvg »

@ Phoenixx

"Staff is screwed up by the management" "Employees do not want to cooperate anymore" "No respect" "No end"
We have discussed all this and there will have to be an end. That means find an agreement.

You give interesting examples in which there is no in between:
- one night counts for one day or for two
- parental leave granted according to the law or not granted
- you let people volunteer to work extra shifts or force them
- follow (or not) the rules regarding training, which means respecting seniority

These are probably four very hot topics. If there is no in between, one side will have to give away something: what are Atcos ready to give away and what do they want to keep?

As a neutral spectator, the four hot topics hereabove are straight forward:

- one night counts for one day, as it does in any other job. In your case, the request from management is to make it count for one day for planning purposes only. You get your sleep day and the hours are paid. But the sleep day counts as a day off in the roster for the counting of the days worked in a row. It wasn't like that before, although nothing was ever put on paper. Atco's received it as a present but now that there is an important staff shortage, it's not possible anymore. That does not even change the number of hours worked weekly or monhtly. Anything above 35 hours per week is claimable back (in days off or paid).
Of course you are working much more than that now but lots of trainees are coming. Give them time to check out. Many Atcos are about to retire: many have accepted to stay longer. There might be more who elect to stay than you imagine.

- parental leave granted according to the law: of course an employer has to respect the law. But what should a management do if it is impossible to grant parental leave without putting the business continuity into trouble? What would you do in their place? Let everyone who wishes to work 4/5 days or half time or be at home during 3 or 4 months (parental leave) do so? Even if that means: 1) not enough people to be rostered 2) make those who don't take parental leave work more (direct and unavoidable consequence)
Can't you find a compromise like: those who wait 3 years (till there is more personal) to take their parental leave will get 25% more? Honestly, it's terrible not to get the parental leave as it is requested but it's a suicide to approve it when you are so short of staff...

- forcing people to work: of course this is unacceptable. What is meant by forcing? There are rules that define how a roster can be changed without the approval of an Atco. With how much notice it has to happen. What are those rules? And what is management doing?

- the seniority rule: the big thing! When an airline hires a captain from another company to work straigth away in the left seat, where is the seniority rule and what do other pilots say?

It's true that the current situation is partly due to bad management. It looks like they have some support from "above". Many companies have had to rationalise over the last 20 years: look at airlines. The same is unavoidable for ATC and it has happened in many countries already. It's impossible that Atcos keep their package (it has been described enough) that dates back from maybe 30 years ago.

sean1982
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by sean1982 »

Phoenixx wrote:
04 May 2019, 14:32
'the impossible spoiled atcos'
When a fish says he’s not a fish, does it make him less of a fish?

When you’re in a situation for long enough its quite common to lose touch with reality. Im sure management doesnt need to play the mentioned card because when you honestly present your working conditions to the general public, many of whom also dont have a Good work-life balance and work for a lot less money, They will feel that you’re spoiled anyway. To say it in brexit terms, you can have the cake and eat it at the Same time

Phoenixx
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx »

mvg wrote:
04 May 2019, 18:33
@ Phoenixx

"Staff is screwed up by the management" "Employees do not want to cooperate anymore" "No respect" "No end"
We have discussed all this and there will have to be an end. That means find an agreement.

You give interesting examples in which there is no in between:
- one night counts for one day or for two
- parental leave granted according to the law or not granted
- you let people volunteer to work extra shifts or force them
- follow (or not) the rules regarding training, which means respecting seniority

These are probably four very hot topics. If there is no in between, one side will have to give away something: what are Atcos ready to give away and what do they want to keep?

As a neutral spectator, the four hot topics hereabove are straight forward:

- one night counts for one day, as it does in any other job. In your case, the request from management is to make it count for one day for planning purposes only. You get your sleep day and the hours are paid. But the sleep day counts as a day off in the roster for the counting of the days worked in a row. It wasn't like that before, although nothing was ever put on paper. Atco's received it as a present but now that there is an important staff shortage, it's not possible anymore. That does not even change the number of hours worked weekly or monhtly. Anything above 35 hours per week is claimable back (in days off or paid).
Of course you are working much more than that now but lots of trainees are coming. Give them time to check out. Many Atcos are about to retire: many have accepted to stay longer. There might be more who elect to stay than you imagine.

- parental leave granted according to the law: of course an employer has to respect the law. But what should a management do if it is impossible to grant parental leave without putting the business continuity into trouble? What would you do in their place? Let everyone who wishes to work 4/5 days or half time or be at home during 3 or 4 months (parental leave) do so? Even if that means: 1) not enough people to be rostered 2) make those who don't take parental leave work more (direct and unavoidable consequence)
Can't you find a compromise like: those who wait 3 years (till there is more personal) to take their parental leave will get 25% more? Honestly, it's terrible not to get the parental leave as it is requested but it's a suicide to approve it when you are so short of staff...

- forcing people to work: of course this is unacceptable. What is meant by forcing? There are rules that define how a roster can be changed without the approval of an Atco. With how much notice it has to happen. What are those rules? And what is management doing?

- the seniority rule: the big thing! When an airline hires a captain from another company to work straigth away in the left seat, where is the seniority rule and what do other pilots say?

It's true that the current situation is partly due to bad management. It looks like they have some support from "above". Many companies have had to rationalise over the last 20 years: look at airlines. The same is unavoidable for ATC and it has happened in many countries already. It's impossible that Atcos keep their package (it has been described enough) that dates back from maybe 30 years ago.
The end you are referring to means finding an agreement together.
What's about to happen is not exactly together and does not include an end to the unreasonable demands atcos have been subject to for years, on the contrary, it might actually get worse.

And well, we're not willing to give up all four, thats for sure.
That's what "finding the middle ground" is about, last time I checked.

Management wants it a nightshift count for one day, 'only' in planning for now (let's see about this offer before we talk about hours) for the purpose of adding more shifts to an atcos roster.
If you work 35 hours per week as agreed, it is not even necessary to add more shifts to a roster.
Do you seriously believe they will honor this '32 hour week' anywhere in their planning department?
It will be used to count the increasing number of extra hours we do, that is all.

Regarding the parental leave. We could do what you say yes.
However, management has already postponed a request far above the legal limit and then simply answered 'your kid is above 12 now, request unvalid'.
You're working with a law here, and everything not covered by this law is subject to discussion.
DIscussion is not their strongest suit.
Also, good luck putting all situations one might ask parental leave for on hold for 3 years.
What about the atcos who want to take their leave now, when they are entitled to do so?
"No sorry, nobody wanted to wait three years so you are the chinese volunteer to wait now."
They can not give more leave in 3 years as I explained before, this shortage will continue for longer already.
This is simply postponing again and saying 'later, we will fix it later, for now please do more'. We have heard that story far too much and for far too long already to still believe it.
You seem to forget this is a right, covered in a European law, and that management has been putting themselves above it for years, and now they want to grant themselves an exception as they see fit, for as long as they deem it necessary, with no possibility to say no.
How correct do you think they are dealing with other rules and laws?

Bringing me to point 3!
Basically they are changing the roster after it is published without the mututal agreement as required. As soon as it is published, which is 1 month in advance for the whole month, they can not change it by themselves anymore.
As I said, they are commandeering atcos as they see fit now, without any legal ground to do so.
Couriers are delivering registered letters to atcos on a one day notice, informing them their shift has changed, no discussion.
Atcos receive emails from ops management informing them their SAME DAY shift has changed if there is no more time to send a courier, once again, no discussion possible.
Supervisors and chiefs are forced to come in earlier or to stay later to minimize the effect of a shortage or a closure, no discussion.
Standbys are officially informed of their activation long before theirlegal activation window to ensure they fall under the set of rules of an activated standby air traffic controller.
Management does not care about any rules restricting them in their goal.

The seniority rule: not how it works !
There are extremely clear and specific rules about this, and management has once again decided not to follow them. To follow your example: If your airline hires a guy, not even a fully licensed pilot yet, they pay for his type rating as they paid for yours, and with 0 actual experience and the absolute minimum of hours needed to become captain put him in the left seat, when your (countries rules, not even company rules) rules clearly state you are supposed to get added to the FO list first, and then when a spot opens up on the captain list, the FO list is asked who is intrested to become captain, in order of seniority and position on this list (and this is how it is stated in the rules, has happened since you joined the company and has been happening since long before too), and their explanation is "but we kind of need a captain now, so we decided to put him on that list straight away, saves us the step of training you and saves us some time", how happy are you going to be?
Do you dare tell me you won't protest, refer to the rules, to how it is supposed to happen and that there is a giant list of FOs waiting to take the captain training and that because of their own lack of planning your are suddenly passed by in this?
Well, if you answer anything but 'yes okay' I probably won't believe you anyway, just making my point.

I have mentioned this before and I will say it again. We are not against change or giving up a few benefits.
We are against the mentality of the current CEO of not taking no for an answer and enforcing his (full) vision one way or the other. When this man gets what he wants, we will lose nearly all benefits and rights except money. (A right that is subject to managements view of continuity is not a right) And money is being used against us every single time to take away something more already, so hooray for that.
sean1982 wrote:
04 May 2019, 18:44
When a fish says he’s not a fish, does it make him less of a fish?

When you’re in a situation for long enough its quite common to lose touch with reality. Im sure management doesnt need to play the mentioned card because when you honestly present your working conditions to the general public, many of whom also dont have a Good work-life balance and work for a lot less money, They will feel that you’re spoiled anyway. To say it in brexit terms, you can have the cake and eat it at the Same time
Ofcourse management doesn't need to do this, our salary alone is good enough to make half of Belgium regard us as spoiled and to justify any and all situations for them, but they do it anyway to make the doubters choose a side and to make critical thinkers doubt. Look at the posts when I started responding here if you think my statement is wrong. Misinformation is a very powerful tool.

But thank you for the 2 clever quotes( still wondering if they refer to management or to me, they are just too smart), the quick and unmotivated judgement, answering completely besides the point of the post you quoted 1 sentence out of and ignoring nearly everything I have been extensively explaining for the last 10 pages. Gonna go have some cake, fish love cake.

sean1982
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by sean1982 »

Phoenixx wrote:
04 May 2019, 20:32

sean1982 wrote:
04 May 2019, 18:44
When a fish says he’s not a fish, does it make him less of a fish?

When you’re in a situation for long enough its quite common to lose touch with reality. Im sure management doesnt need to play the mentioned card because when you honestly present your working conditions to the general public, many of whom also dont have a Good work-life balance and work for a lot less money, They will feel that you’re spoiled anyway. To say it in brexit terms, you can have the cake and eat it at the Same time
Ofcourse management doesn't need to do this, our salary alone is good enough to make half of Belgium regard us as spoiled and to justify any and all situations for them, but they do it anyway to make the doubters choose a side and to make critical thinkers doubt. Look at the posts when I started responding here if you think my statement is wrong. Misinformation is a very powerful tool.

But thank you for the 2 clever quotes( still wondering if they refer to management or to me, they are just too smart), the quick and unmotivated judgement, answering completely besides the point of the post you quoted 1 sentence out of and ignoring nearly everything I have been extensively explaining for the last 10 pages. Gonna go have some cake, fish love cake.
I have read everything and agree with some of it but feel like the ATCO's have lost touch with reality a bit. Compare what you have with what Joe Public has and can you then say hand on heart your working conditions are hard? You could have gone without the sarcastic answer.

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