Whether the complaints/bashing be justified or not is not for me to judge - I am never an airline passenger, let alone a "geek" and only visit the airport occasionally, for a rare bit of spotting. But it seems obvious to me that the root of (perceived) evil is in the privatisation. I am all for privatisation, but only where there is competition, and in this case there is none, or not enough. A large part of users, and more importantly those with money to spend, will use the airport anyway because of its (near) monopoly. Thinking of the Eurocrats I worked among, until recently, most will not even think about using any other airport, let alone the train. Actually I have known several of them to take a taxi from Schuman to the airport even if the train is quicker, more reliable, and much less expensive - they just don't care. That kind of customers bring money to the airport, might well use the shops, and don't really care about alternatives.
The airport management are optimising profit, and that's what they're paid to do. A change in management would not make any difference, if conditions remain the same. The only chance for a change is in the authorities reviewing the conditions of operation when the contract is re-negotiated at expiry - but something tells me we should not hold our breath there, either.
Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future
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Re: BRU infrastructure: future
1. Air Travel will not grow forever; it will take years (10 ? 12 ?) for BRU to grow to 30mio PAX. Crisis is coming and BRU will suffer more than others because they do not look for more PAX.
They have monopoly, more or less, and that gives them a comfortable feeling. Grasp the money.No efforts please.
2. Catchment area is huge, but no efforts are done to make it really easy for the people in Southern Holland and North France and Western Germany .
There are trains to R'dam, A'dam,.. but not to Eindhoven, Tilburg, Maastrichtt. All bustling cities with lot of export oriented companies, and lots of tourists !!
Cologne, Dusseldorf, Aachen,....., Lille, Valenciennes,..
3. That is exactly the problem: shareholders must be kept happy, so the customer is of secundary importance. Very much like in a ministry . And do not forget, many in the board of Diretors are appointed by political powers, political parties . I remember there was even, at some time, a former Minister, known for smoking cigars in the hospital, walking around in the Aiport like a Zombie, searching the Exit to go and smoke a ....Cigar. (4 times a day..)
Private Company ???
Last edited by sn26567 on 22 Apr 2018, 15:34, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Corrected quotes
Reason: Corrected quotes
Re: BRU infrastructure: future
It's not YOUR airport. It's the shareholders' airport. It's an airport you use, out of free will. It's not even public transport: it's a publicly accessable place, private ownership. Like a shopping mall, where you also can come in without entrance control. You hate the airport? Then stay away. But don't use it, and then complain time after time after time. Example: I don't like fat food (fast food) hamburger restaurants, so I stay away from it. But I'm not looking for forums where one can complain about them.
No competition for Brussels Airport? it's all about competition. More or less in importance:jan_olieslagers wrote: ↑22 Apr 2018, 12:38 Whether the complaints/bashing be justified or not is not for me to judge - I am never an airline passenger, let alone a "geek" and only visit the airport occasionally, for a rare bit of spotting. But it seems obvious to me that the root of (perceived) evil is in the privatisation. I am all for privatisation, but only where there is competition, and in this case there is none, or not enough. A large part of users, and more importantly those with money to spend, will use the airport anyway because of its (near) monopoly.
Amsterdam - Thalys - Eurostar - Charleroi - Paris CDG - Paris ORY - Frankfurt - London Heathrow - London Gatwick - Eindhoven - Maastricht - Dusseldorf - Rotterdam - Weeze - Hahn - Lille.
Sure, for some people it's the most convenient one - and even the unevitable one (Nato Evere). But monopoly? Not in aviation in Western Europe.
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Re: BRU infrastructure: future
Well, as I said, in the eyes of many users there is no competition, they simply do not look for alternatives; so they don't see any. That is their perception, only, of course, yes indeed; but they carry a lot of money to Zaventem, and money is what makes the world go around, yes, yes...
What makes matters only worse (depending on viewpoint) is a certain policy in the European institutions to encourage people to travel. That does feed the pan-European spirit of course, but it comes at a cost. I remember someone working near me having to take some specialist training. It could be taken locally, sooner or later; but since his boss covered all the travelling expense, he preferred taking it in Barcelona. And who could blame him?
BTW may one inquire who actually are the customers of the airport (and of others) - the airlines or the passengers/cargo forwarders? I suppose the airport has income both from airlines and from passengers, but to what part? Are passenger taxes 20% of raw income (zakencijfer/chiffre d'affaires) or 75%?
What makes matters only worse (depending on viewpoint) is a certain policy in the European institutions to encourage people to travel. That does feed the pan-European spirit of course, but it comes at a cost. I remember someone working near me having to take some specialist training. It could be taken locally, sooner or later; but since his boss covered all the travelling expense, he preferred taking it in Barcelona. And who could blame him?
BTW may one inquire who actually are the customers of the airport (and of others) - the airlines or the passengers/cargo forwarders? I suppose the airport has income both from airlines and from passengers, but to what part? Are passenger taxes 20% of raw income (zakencijfer/chiffre d'affaires) or 75%?
Re: BRU infrastructure: future
When I say OUR airport it's our international Belgium airport I mean that's where people arrive when arriving in our country it was not more than that.Passenger wrote: ↑22 Apr 2018, 14:11It's not YOUR airport. It's the shareholders' airport. It's an airport you use, out of free will. It's not even public transport: it's a publicly accessable place, private ownership. Like a shopping mall, where you also can come in without entrance control. You hate the airport? Then stay away. But don't use it, and then complain time after time after time. Example: I don't like fat food (fast food) hamburger restaurants, so I stay away from it. But I'm not looking for forums where one can complain about them.
No competition for Brussels Airport? it's all about competition. More or less in importance:jan_olieslagers wrote: ↑22 Apr 2018, 12:38 Whether the complaints/bashing be justified or not is not for me to judge - I am never an airline passenger, let alone a "geek" and only visit the airport occasionally, for a rare bit of spotting. But it seems obvious to me that the root of (perceived) evil is in the privatisation. I am all for privatisation, but only where there is competition, and in this case there is none, or not enough. A large part of users, and more importantly those with money to spend, will use the airport anyway because of its (near) monopoly.
Amsterdam - Thalys - Eurostar - Charleroi - Paris CDG - Paris ORY - Frankfurt - London Heathrow - London Gatwick - Eindhoven - Maastricht - Dusseldorf - Rotterdam - Weeze - Hahn - Lille.
Sure, for some people it's the most convenient one - and even the unevitable one (Nato Evere). But monopoly? Not in aviation in Western Europe.
That's the first impression or the last a tourist will get,that's important for a country.
If I'm not mistaken 25% is still from the Belgium state so it's also our airport.
I don't hate Brussels Airport I love Brussels Airport I love my country and I Love Brussels....
That's why it's important to give a feedback or criticize it to make it better, there is no bashing here .
Hasta la victoria siempre.
Re: BRU infrastructure: future
Hi JOVAN,
I can tell you that BRU is talking a lot with their subcontractors. Bcs Subcontractors are very visible on an iarport and are part of the success of it. If they fail, then everyone has only eyes on BRU. So be sure that BRU has an eye on them. They are very well informed on times that it will be very busy and when not. At the end it is the responsibility of the subcontractor to provide as much as people as needed during peak moments. They are informed way on time.
Mr Arnaud Feist and his entire management team are doing an great job. Let us please not go back to the time when Mr Vandenbossche was the CEO of BRU.
In the past nothing was done to make this airport attractive and it became old and dirty. This is exactly the result which we have since a couple of years. It's the current management team who is finally doing something to level this airport to modern standards. But please, understand that you can't make big changes from today on tomorrow. It takes time and - believe me - a lot of external parties has to agreed on it.
Since a couple of years and current we have the New Connector, The A-pier, the brand new luggage system, the old buildings like DHL are demolished, Brucargo is in a full refurbishment, Brand new spotter platforms, two huge brand new fire stations, more direct intercontinental lines, B-pier who will be refurbished and many things who I even forgot. This current team had the guts to present this Airport 2040. They know how difficult it will be. The Brussels government who wants to destroy this airport, the communities who are afraid of more noise,etc, but they have the will to make this airport bigger and better. Who did it before them, nobody.
BRU is thinking about their pax and about the thousands of people who are working daily on this airport. PAX, airlines, etc are the clients of the airport and they are extremely important.
Re: BRU infrastructure: future
What did you say the Brussels Government want to destroy this airport ....!!!!!Atlantis wrote: ↑22 Apr 2018, 18:57Hi JOVAN,
I can tell you that BRU is talking a lot with their subcontractors. Bcs Subcontractors are very visible on an iarport and are part of the success of it. If they fail, then everyone has only eyes on BRU. So be sure that BRU has an eye on them. They are very well informed on times that it will be very busy and when not. At the end it is the responsibility of the subcontractor to provide as much as people as needed during peak moments. They are informed way on time.
Mr Arnaud Feist and his entire management team are doing an great job. Let us please not go back to the time when Mr Vandenbossche was the CEO of BRU.
In the past nothing was done to make this airport attractive and it became old and dirty. This is exactly the result which we have since a couple of years. It's the current management team who is finally doing something to level this airport to modern standards. But please, understand that you can't make big changes from today on tomorrow. It takes time and - believe me - a lot of external parties has to agreed on it.
Since a couple of years and current we have the New Connector, The A-pier, the brand new luggage system, the old buildings like DHL are demolished, Brucargo is in a full refurbishment, Brand new spotter platforms, two huge brand new fire stations, more direct intercontinental lines, B-pier who will be refurbished and many things who I even forgot. This current team had the guts to present this Airport 2040. They know how difficult it will be. The Brussels government who wants to destroy this airport, the communities who are afraid of more noise,etc, but they have the will to make this airport bigger and better. Who did it before them, nobody.
BRU is thinking about their pax and about the thousands of people who are working daily on this airport. PAX, airlines, etc are the clients of the airport and they are extremely important.
From where are you taking this information...?
The only thing the Brussels Government is doing is to keep Brussels livable and maybe stop night flights but in any case they don't want to destroy it!!!!!
I'm very sad that it comes from somebody like you a tough you where somebody reasonable....
Last edited by lumumba on 22 Apr 2018, 23:07, edited 3 times in total.
Hasta la victoria siempre.
Re: BRU infrastructure: future
Thanks Atlantis,Atlantis wrote: ↑22 Apr 2018, 18:57Hi JOVAN,
I can tell you that BRU is talking a lot with their subcontractors. Bcs Subcontractors are very visible on an iarport and are part of the success of it. If they fail, then everyone has only eyes on BRU. So be sure that BRU has an eye on them. They are very well informed on times that it will be very busy and when not. At the end it is the responsibility of the subcontractor to provide as much as people as needed during peak moments. They are informed way on time.
Mr Arnaud Feist and his entire management team are doing an great job. Let us please not go back to the time when Mr Vandenbossche was the CEO of BRU.
In the past nothing was done to make this airport attractive and it became old and dirty. This is exactly the result which we have since a couple of years. It's the current management team who is finally doing something to level this airport to modern standards. But please, understand that you can't make big changes from today on tomorrow. It takes time and - believe me - a lot of external parties has to agreed on it.
Since a couple of years and current we have the New Connector, The A-pier, the brand new luggage system, the old buildings like DHL are demolished, Brucargo is in a full refurbishment, Brand new spotter platforms, two huge brand new fire stations, more direct intercontinental lines, B-pier who will be refurbished and many things who I even forgot. This current team had the guts to present this Airport 2040. They know how difficult it will be. The Brussels government who wants to destroy this airport, the communities who are afraid of more noise,etc, but they have the will to make this airport bigger and better. Who did it before them, nobody.
BRU is thinking about their pax and about the thousands of people who are working daily on this airport. PAX, airlines, etc are the clients of the airport and they are extremely important.
Indeed, not all things are bad.
It is certainly not an easy job.
But, if subcontractors do a lousy job, or work too slow, there is certainly something wrong with the way this subcontractors are managed.
So sorry, but who else to blame than the Management ??
* How terribly long it takes to renovate the Arrival Area. What will be the result
* How long it took to upgrade, renovate the area where taxi come (arrival). The result is unbelievably poor.
* the time waiting for luggage is still way too long; after an eternal walk from arrival gate you would expect your luggage to be there in say 10 minutes; NOT 45 minutes !!
* the long waiting ties at immigration (Pier B) could be solved or made acceptable, if the e-gates would work, if more immigration officers would be availbale;
* avoid waiting times at security (just a matter of organization..)
If you start with some easy and visible improvements, that cannot cost a lot of money, the criticism will certainly disappear and what is of more value than a Happy Customer ???
So my advice (Free of Charge): stop denying the problems : go and have a look at the problems and make a plan to solve.
Then work on it, solve it and communicate so we (PAX) can have a look and enjoy the improvement.
We will always compare with foreign airports, and will be proud if BRU ("our" airport) raises its standard.
PAX ARE VERY IMPORTANT !!!
Re: BRU infrastructure: future
The current Brussels government and especially certain members of it are doing everything to make it BRU as difficult as possible.lumumba wrote: ↑22 Apr 2018, 19:51
What did you say the Brussels Government want to destroy this airport ....!!!!!
From where are you taking this information...?
The only thing the Brussels Government is doing is to keep Brussels livable and maybe stop night flights but in any case they want to destroy it!!!!!
I'm very sad that it comes from somebody like you a tough you where somebody reasonable....
We are not only speaking about night flights, hours between 6-7 no flights anymore after 22 and also day flights are on their scope regarding noise.
The Brussels region really forget that their hotels, taxi's, restaurants are full bcs of tourists and business people.
Re: BRU infrastructure: future
The problems are very well known, believe me.JOVAN wrote: ↑22 Apr 2018, 19:56
Thanks Atlantis,
Indeed, not all things are bad.
It is certainly not an easy job.
But, if subcontractors do a lousy job, or work too slow, there is certainly something wrong with the way this subcontractors are managed.
So sorry, but who else to blame than the Management ??
* How terribly long it takes to renovate the Arrival Area. What will be the result
* How long it took to upgrade, renovate the area where taxi come (arrival). The result is unbelievably poor.
* the time waiting for luggage is still way too long; after an eternal walk from arrival gate you would expect your luggage to be there in say 10 minutes; NOT 45 minutes !!
* the long waiting ties at immigration (Pier B) could be solved or made acceptable, if the e-gates would work, if more immigration officers would be availbale;
* avoid waiting times at security (just a matter of organization..)
If you start with some easy and visible improvements, that cannot cost a lot of money, the criticism will certainly disappear and what is of more value than a Happy Customer ???
So my advice (Free of Charge): stop denying the problems : go and have a look at the problems and make a plan to solve.
Then work on it, solve it and communicate so we (PAX) can have a look and enjoy the improvement.
We will always compare with foreign airports, and will be proud if BRU ("our" airport) raises its standard.
PAX ARE VERY IMPORTANT !!!
Arrival, bus area, taxi stands are a this moment not the best place. This will change in the future to integrate everything in a public transport area.
Border control and the e-gates are not working like it should be. It should help more instead of creating more problems and gueues are for nobody pleasant. They work on solutions to make it better
Re: BRU infrastructure: future
But give us an example,you will not find one!Atlantis wrote: ↑22 Apr 2018, 20:52The current Brussels government and especially certain members of it are doing everything to make it BRU as difficult as possible.lumumba wrote: ↑22 Apr 2018, 19:51
What did you say the Brussels Government want to destroy this airport ....!!!!!
From where are you taking this information...?
The only thing the Brussels Government is doing is to keep Brussels livable and maybe stop night flights but in any case they want to destroy it!!!!!
I'm very sad that it comes from somebody like you a tough you where somebody reasonable....
We are not only speaking about night flights, hours between 6-7 no flights anymore after 22 and also day flights are on their scope regarding noise.
The Brussels region really forget that their hotels, taxi's, restaurants are full bcs of tourists and business people.
The thing here it's that Belgium is a difficult country so it's difficult to find solutions.
Brussels is completely aware of the economical importance of it but not at every price.
We are not going over this discussion again we have page's and page's here...
Hasta la victoria siempre.
Re: BRU infrastructure: future
No single one?! There are more then two hands of examples.lumumba wrote: ↑22 Apr 2018, 23:06But give us an example,you will not find one!Atlantis wrote: ↑22 Apr 2018, 20:52The current Brussels government and especially certain members of it are doing everything to make it BRU as difficult as possible.lumumba wrote: ↑22 Apr 2018, 19:51
What did you say the Brussels Government want to destroy this airport ....!!!!!
From where are you taking this information...?
The only thing the Brussels Government is doing is to keep Brussels livable and maybe stop night flights but in any case they want to destroy it!!!!!
I'm very sad that it comes from somebody like you a tough you where somebody reasonable....
We are not only speaking about night flights, hours between 6-7 no flights anymore after 22 and also day flights are on their scope regarding noise.
The Brussels region really forget that their hotels, taxi's, restaurants are full bcs of tourists and business people.
The thing here it's that Belgium is a difficult country so it's difficult to find solutions.
Brussels is completely aware of the economical importance of it but not at every price.
We are not going over this discussion again we have page's and page's here...
Go a little bit back in time and check what some specific political persons where saying about BRU and how they want to block everything regarding BRU and the development. You would be very much surprised.
Why do you think that the Flemisch government is so furious at the Brussels ones bcs they block everything and they are not open for any debate?
Brussels wants only the big benefits but not the less parts? Strange cooperation
And also the Federal government is not eager to find any solution regarding the "Vlieg wet" and the noise issues. Again it will be for the new government. I have huge doubts if they will do it
Re: BRU infrastructure: future
That's a point of view I'm not agree with...But like I said we will not go over this discussion.Atlantis wrote: ↑22 Apr 2018, 23:19No single one?! There are more then two hands of examples.lumumba wrote: ↑22 Apr 2018, 23:06But give us an example,you will not find one!Atlantis wrote: ↑22 Apr 2018, 20:52
The current Brussels government and especially certain members of it are doing everything to make it BRU as difficult as possible.
We are not only speaking about night flights, hours between 6-7 no flights anymore after 22 and also day flights are on their scope regarding noise.
The Brussels region really forget that their hotels, taxi's, restaurants are full bcs of tourists and business people.
The thing here it's that Belgium is a difficult country so it's difficult to find solutions.
Brussels is completely aware of the economical importance of it but not at every price.
We are not going over this discussion again we have page's and page's here...
Go a little bit back in time and check what some specific political persons where saying about BRU and how they want to block everything regarding BRU and the development. You would be very much surprised.
Why do you think that the Flemisch government is so furious at the Brussels ones bcs they block everything and they are not open for any debate?
Brussels wants only the big benefits but not the less parts? Strange cooperation
And also the Federal government is not eager to find any solution regarding the "Vlieg wet" and the noise issues. Again it will be for the new government. I have huge doubts if they will do it
For me Minister Céline Fremault is doing a great job and is trying hard to find a solution sustainable for everybody but she received no answer till now.
That's my opinion.
Hasta la victoria siempre.
Re: BRU infrastructure: future
All i can say is that Atlantis is right !
I work on the airport for almost 20 years.( and no i dont work for BAC or SN,...)
Since a few years you can see a difference, they have a plan now with where to go to (look at 2040).
In the past it was what it was and thats it.
A BIG keystone is and was the move of DHL, Building 2 and canopy has to be come down yet,actualy all the old "technics complex" will have to go) so they have space to work within.
Will it be perfect ? no ! It will never be good enough for certain people
Will it be fast , no ! due to a lot of regulations it takes a lot of time (even tearing down building takes a lot of time, dont forget that these old buildings still have asbest inside)
BRU has a space problem to work fast
I work on the airport for almost 20 years.( and no i dont work for BAC or SN,...)
Since a few years you can see a difference, they have a plan now with where to go to (look at 2040).
In the past it was what it was and thats it.
A BIG keystone is and was the move of DHL, Building 2 and canopy has to be come down yet,actualy all the old "technics complex" will have to go) so they have space to work within.
Will it be perfect ? no ! It will never be good enough for certain people
Will it be fast , no ! due to a lot of regulations it takes a lot of time (even tearing down building takes a lot of time, dont forget that these old buildings still have asbest inside)
BRU has a space problem to work fast
Re: BRU infrastructure: future
You would be surprised...They often seem empty to me too, but airport shops generate the most revenue/sq.meter and some times generate more revenue than a shop in a high profile shopping street. That's why it's important for some brands to have an airport shop.
Did you know that the shop that sells the most chocolate in the world (2,35 tons/day!) is located in BRU. source (Dutch).
According to this intresting article in The Economist around 20% of non-aeronautical revenues for airports in Europe come from these retail shops since most airports are (partly) privatised in the West.
The financing of airports relies upon two broad streams: aeronautical revenues from airlines and passenger charges; and commercial revenues from other activities at the airport.
According to this study, an average of 40.4% of global airport revenues derive from such commercial revenues. Of these, duty free and travel retail are usually the most important source of income. Larger airports are able to leverage these revenues to generate the highest levels of retail revenues per passenger, which effectively cover up to 80% of their profit margins.
So a very important source of income.
The article in The Economist also mentions reasons why numbers could drop/are dropping such as e.g longer security checks/passport control...something for BRU to keep in mind if I read some experiences here
Re: BRU infrastructure: future
Shops at an airport are like adverts on a web site for me
Re: BRU infrastructure: future
BRU was public, many years ago. And it was a mess.jan_olieslagers wrote: ↑22 Apr 2018, 12:38 Whether the complaints/bashing be justified or not is not for me to judge - I am never an airline passenger, let alone a "geek" and only visit the airport occasionally, for a rare bit of spotting. But it seems obvious to me that the root of (perceived) evil is in the privatisation. I am all for privatisation, but only where there is competition, and in this case there is none, or not enough. A large part of users, and more importantly those with money to spend, will use the airport anyway because of its (near) monopoly. Thinking of the Eurocrats I worked among, until recently, most will not even think about using any other airport, let alone the train. Actually I have known several of them to take a taxi from Schuman to the airport even if the train is quicker, more reliable, and much less expensive - they just don't care. That kind of customers bring money to the airport, might well use the shops, and don't really care about alternatives.
The airport management are optimising profit, and that's what they're paid to do. A change in management would not make any difference, if conditions remain the same. The only chance for a change is in the authorities reviewing the conditions of operation when the contract is re-negotiated at expiry - but something tells me we should not hold our breath there, either.
The state is now nothing but a shareholder, and a minor one if I'm correct.
Re: BRU infrastructure: future
Hi Conti764,
Ontario Teachers Pension Plan has 39% of the shares, Macquarie has still 36% (They came from 75%), and the Belgian State has 25%
Atlantis
Re: BRU infrastructure: future
I know shops are an important source of revenue for an airport and I don't mind if there are a few of them; I even use them occasionnally. But untill a few years ago they were located alongside the pax route.Sai wrote: ↑23 Apr 2018, 12:16You would be surprised...They often seem empty to me too, but airport shops generate the most revenue/sq.meter and some times generate more revenue than a shop in a high profile shopping street. That's why it's important for some brands to have an airport shop.
Did you know that the shop that sells the most chocolate in the world (2,35 tons/day!) is located in BRU. source (Dutch).
According to this intresting article in The Economist around 20% of non-aeronautical revenues for airports in Europe come from these retail shops since most airports are (partly) privatised in the West.
The financing of airports relies upon two broad streams: aeronautical revenues from airlines and passenger charges; and commercial revenues from other activities at the airport.
According to this study, an average of 40.4% of global airport revenues derive from such commercial revenues. Of these, duty free and travel retail are usually the most important source of income. Larger airports are able to leverage these revenues to generate the highest levels of retail revenues per passenger, which effectively cover up to 80% of their profit margins.
So a very important source of income.
The article in The Economist also mentions reasons why numbers could drop/are dropping such as e.g longer security checks/passport control...something for BRU to keep in mind if I read some experiences here
What I consider unacceptable, though, is the fact that I MUST go through them in order to reach the gates; it is the demonstration that big business and the airport management consider that the pax are their slaves and that consumption has become the prominent function of every citizen. And I will continue to complain about that.
Re: BRU infrastructure: future
That you have to get through the shops is a worldwide phenomenon. I really don't understand why you and others are pointing the BRU management of this? It is like they are the only ones on this whole earth who are doing this.
Worldwide, doesn't matter if you arrive or depart, they lead you all through tax free shops.
To give you an example. Lately I travelled to Milan. When coming back, after security check, they lead you via THREE separated tax free shops. Is sb complaining about that?
Everybody buys alcohol, chocolate, cookies, beer, perfume or you eat and drink there sth. And most of them are full house all the time. So it means that it works and that people enjoy this.
Worldwide, doesn't matter if you arrive or depart, they lead you all through tax free shops.
To give you an example. Lately I travelled to Milan. When coming back, after security check, they lead you via THREE separated tax free shops. Is sb complaining about that?
Everybody buys alcohol, chocolate, cookies, beer, perfume or you eat and drink there sth. And most of them are full house all the time. So it means that it works and that people enjoy this.