BEAP to start before end Dec 04

[SN30952]

Yes Beaucaire, If this should be true the makers of the business plan better go back to school...
The first thing in aviation-other than finding investors - is to make shure the legal framwork for any AOL is granted...
As they say in cooking class: check first if all your ingredients are fresh

[Boeing767copilot]

read on www.Luchtvaartnieuws.nl, sorry in Dutch:

Over wie de investeerders zijn en waarmee gevlogen gaat worden bestaat nog veel onduidelijkheid. De Nederlandse ExelAviationGroup wordt genoemd, maar volgens CEO Harm Prins is er nog helemaal niets officieel.

“Het verbaast me dat wij al zo uitdrukkelijk worden genoemd in de Belgische pers”, aldus Prins tegenover Luchtvaartnieuws. “ExelAviationGroup is op dit moment géén investeerder in BEAP. Er is al wel een afspraak gemaakt over het uitvoeren van de eerste vluchten voor BEAP. Die vluchten worden als het goed is deze maand al uitgevoerd door toestellen van de ExelAviationGroup."

[short translation by sn26567: Exel has not invested in BEAP, but it will operate its first flights.]

[Zorba]

I think it isn't smart of BEAP to give all this information already. It only gives a "un-professional" look, to me at least ... What do you think?

[LJ]

I'm somewhat amazed by the number of people wanting to have an Asian connection by a Belgian airline (and especially by BEAP). Hasn't anyone followed a marketing course where one would have learned that to succeed as a small airline one has to find a niche??? The Asian market is already flooded with capacity and unless you can offer at least 5 weekly flights to a main point (Bangkok, Singapore, Hong Kong, Tokyo, Osaka, Seoul, Delhi, Mumbai, Shanghai or Beijing) you're going to loose against the big boys (Lufthansa, Air France/KLM and British Airways). Moreoevr yields on routes to Asia aren't high (especially destinations like Osaka and Seoul) and given the small size of BEAP this isn't a good thing.

Therefore opting for destinations with relatively low competition isn't a stupid idea.

As for going out early. I think they had to as they intend to fly on December 23rd. However naming ExelAviationGroup as an investor is stupid if they [ExelAviationGroup] don't want to. It only annoys a possible investor (as no contracts have been signed as far as I can read their comments) and it may kill the project.

[LX-LGX]

Although planes are cheap nowadays, it's a hell of a job to start up an airline. BEAP is working on it for almost 2 years, they say. This makes me think on what happened some 10.000 kms away: just yesterday, another airline announced they give up plans to fly from JNB/DUR to STN. Civair (www.civair.co.za), a South African helicopter company, indeed tried for about a year to start up this route with one 747-200.
.
From Travel News Now (travelinfo.co.za): CIVAIR, the low-cost airline that had planned to launch flights between Durban/Cape Town and London Stansted this month, may not get off the ground. This according to Civair ceo, Andy Cluver, who told TNN that he could not “give a date or make promises” about launching the service. Cluver said the launch had been delayed due to “circumstances beyond our control” and indicated to TNN that the problem was a financial one. But he assured TNN that passengers would receive a full refund on tickets booked.
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(Just to make sure: all the best for BEAP, I really hope they will realise what Civair couldn't).
.
(and a message for SN30952: les erreurs que j'ai fait étaient forcés. Mais c'était justement pour te montrer comment les Néerlandophones de ce pays se sentaient: BEAP ne respecte pas notre langue. Vont-ils nous respecter comme clients?)

[TCAS_climb]

The Belgian gouvrnement told that BEAP has still not make a request for a AOC. They need a Belgian AOC to fly to Lome in Togo. The dutch, Holland Excell, AOC should be not valid for flights from Brussels to Togo.

They don't have to make a formal/initial request for an AOC, they'll use BelgiumExel's AOC, if I understand correctly.

Among the things to be written on the AOC (which is just a page of paper saying who can do what) is the type of operation approved by the civil aviation authority issuing the AOC. What the government probably meant is that the BelgiumExel AOC does not allow it to operate scheduled flight to Africa.

If BEAP wants to use BelgiumExel's B767, BelgiumExel has to ask for a variation of it's AOC. They don't have to start thre whole JAR-OPS certification process all over again, but this procedure may take much more time than you can imagine. You just don't send an email to the authority saying "Hey, we're going to Africa !" and you get the approval the next day.

It takes time, and the fact they haven't made the elementary steps yet, less than 20 days before the inaugural flight, is worrying, to say the least.
Good luck to them anyway.

[dre]

it takes time...


Especially with the VERY STUPID bestuur der Luchtvaart Authorities in Belgium which are far more working against new plans than in favour of them...

[LX-LGX]

Yep, let's wait and see. If they really want to start on 23th December, I would strongly advise them to engage a sales manager, to set up a time table and to accept provisional bookings. You need a plane to fly, you need an AOC, you need cockpit crew and cabin crew, but first of all you need passengers. And there's no booking facility on the website yet...

Last days, BEAP did quite well in the Belgian media. But now, it should be back to business for them.

[AFApresident]

Yep, let's wait and see. If they really want to start on 23th December, I would strongly advise them to engage a sales manager, to set up a time table and to accept provisional bookings. You need a plane to fly, you need an AOC, you need cockpit crew and cabin crew, but first of all you need passengers. And there's no booking facility on the website yet...

Couldnt agree more ... when will they change their website to include booking facilities, and list their destinations.

Or does Excell need to provide the passengers? In which case BEAP is really only an 'intermediare'.

LJ: In your marketing course you would also have seen that 'doing things better' can also be a good strategy. If there is one bakery in a suburb, it can be very wise to build your bakery not 1km further but just next to it. If you provide a better product, with a similar or lower price, you are going to win.


If BEAP offers daily flights out of BRU to Shanghai-Tokyo and Hong Kong-Taiwan. At a similar price (might be a little higher since it´s none stop) and with a better product then BA, KLM, AF, LH and the chinese carriers. Then this could prove very profitable. (less profitable maybe then the african routes, but more then the Atlantic routes).


Nevertheless it´s not up to us, armchair CEO´s, to say what BEAP should do, I hope they made their market research and that this research concluded there was enough demand for BEAP´s future product. If not they´re in big trouble.

[Avro]

Therefore opting for destinations with relatively low competition isn't a stupid idea.

I'm sorry but in my opinion connecting BRU to DXB would be more reasonable than linking BRU with Lomé. Do you really think that the yields will be higher on the Lomé route ? I don't think so.

And BTW I don't see why the DXB route couldn't work out, especially when you see that even DUS gets its DXB route.

Chris

[SN30952]

I don't see why the DXB route couldn't work out, especially when you see that even DUS gets its DXB route. Chris

This is not a P2P, but a network feeder....

[themole]

Even for an airline professional like me, additional info is extremely scarce and hard to obtain. I have been browsing all the intra-professional systems and message boards which I have at my disposal, and I truly can't find anything that has been confirmed officially.

What I did find out (subject to change without prior notice of course), is that the 'real' launch of the BEAP project was initially planned in late March 2005. The so called inaugural flight on 23th December 2004, is an ad-hoc non-scheduled service. That's probably also the reason why so little info is available. Info about non-scheduled services is always limited, as you all know.

Anyway, starting-up a scheduled service on such a short notice is absolutely not done, if not impossible. Therefore the temporary ad-hoc non-scheduled HXL coded flights. If the scheduled services take-off in March 2005, BEAP might use the "YZ" IATA code of the ExelAviationGroup, at least for the flights operated for BEAP, by one of the B767-300ERs of the ExelAviationGroup.

I do not expect BEAP to operate widebodies of their own, not now, not later. They will probably wet, acmi or damp lease a widebody aircraft when needed. BEAP itself will probably operate some used narrowbodies for their planned intra-African services and that's it.

Good luck to BEAP, but I am not so excited about this project for several reasons, forgive me my scepticism ...

[Jense]

Van Rossem dind't look 'sure' yesterday evening on Ter Zake. Money needs to come from Africa, they don't have a plane yet, ... and within 3 weeks there is the first flight? Naaaaah

greettzzz

[Advisor]

I can only add that yes the forum administrators are doing a good job.

To the people who engage in language feuds, only a humble message to them:
People are lonely because they build walls instead of bridges.

We all are in aviation. Let our planes not just fly across boundaries and tarmacs but also beyond mere linguistic battles and i always thought that AVIATION is the biggest networker of the world.

Remember, WE ARE THE WORLD. WE ARE THE PEOPLE.

[ERICAIRLINES]

100 pct ok with you !! nice words...it must be said

back to beap issues

interesting post on airliners....saying that 23 dec flight will be an unscheduled one....real start of the airline taking place in april 05 (or end of march)...when summer schedule begins

[Avro]

for give me my scepticism

You're not the only one to be sceptic.

At Jense: Why do you need to bring back the discussion to the the off topic issue again. Your comment doesn't help at all in this discussion and it's no point to bring oil on the fire is it ? PLease let us continue to discuss the beap topic in a friendly way.

Chris

[OrientThai]

BEAP is planning to fly from BRU to Lomé 2x a week and BRU-Bamako-Lomé also 2x a week.
Are they going to fly to other African destinations out of BRU? Because only 4 flights a week from BRU to two destinations in West Africa seems to me not a lot.

[Dude320]

They don't have to make a formal/initial request for an AOC, they'll use BelgiumExel's AOC, if I understand correctly.


PLSE Note as far as i can remeber that Belgium Exel still HAS NO
Belgian AOC (Air Operator cerificate)

They requested already few times, but the BCAA refused !!
(due to insufficient docs and paperwork)


ATTN : BEAPERS : the minimum required for Ops will be a AOC.

[flyexel]

I don't think it will be that easy to obtain a belgian AOC...They "played" a lot with the BCAA in the beginning of the BelgiumExel adventure!

And sorry for saying this,but I don't really believe in BEAP,for me it's an "AIR"line...
How long do we have to be confronted with rumours about Beap and it's never going further,why??Because it's a dream,an utopia of all former Sabena personell,once again sorry for this "rude" reaction but I flew with a few beapers at AirHolland and they live on a cloud....
For example:They will ask all personell to invest at least 5000€ in Beap!!That amount will be whitdrawn from their salary every month....

But still wishing them all the luck for the start-up!!!!!!!!!!!

[SN30952]

[BEAP] will ask all personell to invest at least 5000€ in Beap!! That amount will be whitdrawn from their salary every month....

every month....??? 5000€ ???
5000€ is a lot for an individual, peanuts for an airline, indeed.
In fact these people pay themselves for flying? They are co-owners, entrepreneurs. What is their status?

It looks like following modus operandi seems to become regular procedure.
The US carriers estimate their personnel is earning too much, so they reduce their salary.
Here the personnel agrees by contract to have their salary reduced .
There is something unhealthy in the system.
Labor pays, and the capital minimises its risks. It makes me think of following situations:

In the early 70's I was in Argentina with Sabena.
There the public city transit was organised as follows: some drivers hired daily a Mercedesbus from rich owners (rich individuals or companies - banks or bus manufacturers and pay a fee to the (corrupt) municipality authority for the rights to operate a line). The drivers had to pay in advance fixed amounts, then went to fill up the tank with diesel -at the bus-owner's petrol station! -, then they hit the street of Buenos Aires. How did these drivers survive? By getting as much as possible passengers on board and drive as fast as possible. And the corrida could start.
What they earned, was what remained after a long day of racing with upto 80-90 passengers in the streets of B.A. (Sometimes, it weren't the drivers that rented the busses but middlemen, imagine these people also wanted their share, what was left for the drivers?)
30 years later I saw the same system in.... Tananarivo, Madagascar (with converted ex-Belgacom vans!).

In Asia the same system works already for ages: the rikshaw drivers operate in the same way: they daily rent their tricycle, go on the streets for clients.
The only ones who benefit in these systems are the owners of the hardware.... Once the rikshaw drivers get in payment problems, the owners grant credits, so the drivers have to empty their pockets every evening, and soon they are on the treadles for a bowl of rice.

Is air transport going into its worse episode of capitalism.... ?
Or do they make people believe that, if this modus turns out to be successful, then the personnel-co-owners can expect of course nice returns.
Meanwhile the owners of the hardware have already their money... and their benefits, with little or no risks. Because if the money not follows, they stop renting the hardware..

Imho, personnel only puts its labor up for hire, not its savings.

btw, how does one pronounce Beap?
As in Beep*, biep?
* that makes me think of this Beeper
Note: personnel, double N, not dbl L