Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

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teach
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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by teach »

sn-remember wrote:@teach Sorry to disagree, when your company is forcefully merged into another one which happens NOT to be *A full member as you are, it IS legitimate to ask yourself what the future holds regarding this VITAL point. And I AM surprised this obvious question was NOT raised publicly.
My guess is because it's a non-issue. And once again: why on earth would LH want to desperately shoot itself in the foot?
Also, I don't see HOW SN on it's own could finance additional aircrat to the ones LH is willing to finance. SN would NOT have that freedom I am afraid ..
Why would they not have the freedom to use their own money to finance their own fleet? Or are you seriously suggesting that from 1 January onwards all existing leases will also be paid for by LH?

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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by Jetter »

Boavida wrote:Could be. Are there any chances for the A350? LH ordered 25 if I'm not mistaken.
As long as many of the current A330's fly triangel flights, the A350 makes no sense for SN. The A330 (NEO) is pretty perfect for SN's needs.

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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by sn-remember »

Once the merger is done, LH has responsability for the whole of what was SN. SN can still run their current fleet but any a/c acquisition is obviuosly submitted to LH mgt board approval. I also think the A330-900 (neo) would be suited. But the ceo'last iteration is quite good also for sn"s current needs.
And don't take me wrong, it's a good thing (in theory at least) to be part of a big group. Now will they want to continue developping bru as a star hub (or just a focus l/cost city) is another matter which is a major issue for us (not for the Germans bcs they can easily compensate elsewher the missed potential of bru). And honestly the answers we got from Spohr are indicating some reasons to worry (it's unclear what he has in mind regarding the so-called african hub, *A mbership &trans-atlantic JV, future market development, scope of autonomy etc). Time will tell, I still am doubtfull upon what the Belagian actors really obtained.

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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by sn26567 »

As I didn't know, I asked: Brussels Airlines confirmed to me that it would remain a member of Star Alliance after integration into Eurowings.
André
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Stij
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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by Stij »

sn26567 wrote:As I didn't know, I asked: Brussels Airlines confirmed to me that it would remain a member of Star Alliance after integration into Eurowings.
Good news!

I just started to appreciate the program again:

A couple of years ago when trying to book an award ticket they always proposed via FRA or MUC and charged more taxes and fuel charges than SN charged for the ticket.

Now they ask 35.000 (sometimes 15.000) miles and taxes are around 60€ most of the time for a Flex and Fast ticket.

Totally cool with this!

Cheers,

Stij

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sn26567
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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by sn26567 »

Eurowings also has the Miles&More programme, even though they are not a member of Star Alliance!

And here is a dissenting opinion after the cheers for the purchase:

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/brussel ... economist/
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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by travellover »

sn26567 wrote:As I didn't know, I asked: Brussels Airlines confirmed to me that it would remain a member of Star Alliance after integration into Eurowings.
.
Good news. It looks like common sense. :)
Cheers

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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by sn-remember »

sn26567 wrote:As I didn't know, I asked: Brussels Airlines confirmed to me that it would remain a member of Star Alliance after integration into Eurowings.
Thank you .. however we would certainly appreciate an official commitment on this particular point ...
I assume it's just during the transition period ?
Because we know Spohr wants to integrate SN into EW in a forseeable future .. meaning SN would cease to exist as a distinct entity I assume ...
SO how can he guarantee what you've written on the long term ? Or do I miss something ?

Or would EW apply for full *A mbership (like Air Canada-Rouge as I already mentioned) .. Would this option be in the cards ?
Please can someone in the know kindly enlighten me ?
Last edited by sn-remember on 20 Dec 2016, 23:07, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous320
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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by Anonymous320 »

I think the distinction should be made between 'Eurowings' and the 'Eurowings Group'. Brussels Airlines could very well keep operating as a seperate entity within the group.

This way it could retain the *A-membership, and also remain a recognizable brand in Africa.

And, who knows, in the end it might prove better to be an influential higher-end product in a smaller low-cost group, than be the odd little bird among bigger players.
Just as an example: It is not unthinkable that some (existing or future) EW Long Haul destinations might be transferred to Brussels Airlines and benefit from the *A-Hub in Brussels.

Just my thoughts though! We'll see soon enough...

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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by sn26567 »

Anonymous320 wrote:I think the distinction should be made between 'Eurowings' and the 'Eurowings Group'.
This is indeed very good remark. Eurowings already operated under two different airline codes: EW/EWG for the main airline based in Düsseldorf, and E2/EWE for "Eurowings Europe" based in Vienna. And then there is also Germanwings (4U/GWI). SN/BEL could well be the fourth member of the family, just before (or after) the Swiss flights from Geneva.
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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by travellover »

Carsten spohr cited the opening of Mumbai and the creation of 200 jobs for SN at the press conference last week. LH holding to it's Indian backyard, it could be one of the signs that SN will be taken into account ?
Last edited by travellover on 21 Dec 2016, 11:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Inquirer
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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by Inquirer »

Anonymous320 wrote:I think the distinction should be made between 'Eurowings' and the 'Eurowings Group'. Brussels Airlines could very well keep operating as a seperate entity within the group.
It would be interesting to have more clarification on this relatively new 'Eurowings Group' concept, but indeed, it seems the Lufthansa group intends to duplicate their quite successful cluster of premium brands (Lufthansa, Swiss, Austrian) also on the hybrid segment: Germanwings, Eurowings, Brussels Airlines.

Having a local affiliation to the market you operate in is IMHO increasingly important to set oneself apart from all the others competing with you globally and I fail to see why such would be the case only for premium products? I can very much see passengers to prefer this over a generic and globalized product, also in the hybrid market segment.

Compare it to the beer market, if you wish: the Dutch have a globalized approach with Heineken (which is the most internationally sold beer by far), but ABInBev's cluster of local brands still tops them as the biggest brewer in the world. Easyjet and Ryanair may be compared to Heineken's, whereas the Eurowings / Lufthansa group cluster of brands is sort of the ABInBev approach.

The added benefit is then of course that you can allow all those different brands more commercial freedom too: Austrian has been showing off 'part of the Lufthansa group' signs too for some time, but that doesn't turn them into 'Lufthansa Austria' either, including copy-pasting every Lufthansa product or brand feature.

What I would advice Spohr to do is to change name at the group level(s), however.
As this latest integration has clearly shown, it's a pretty poor situation to have a group named after one of its constituting brands as it creates needless confusion as to the fact whether it's an integration into a bigger group, or just a take-over followed by a merger.
IAG for instance has well understood that by adopting a more neutral name, one creates far less animosity when it comes to taking over other local brands in future. Image IAG being called 'British Airways group': such wouldn't have been appreciated in Ireland, I am sure, when they went for Aer Lingus.

Lufthansa and Eurowings -as group names- are bad names: both need something far more neutral: along the lines of 'European Premium Airlines Group' (EPAG) and 'European Hybrid Airlines Group' (EHAG) just to give one example. Both groups holding different brands: the first one Lufthansa, Swiss, Austrian, the other one Brussels Airlines, Eurowings, Germanwings.
Now, that does immediately sound far less threatening, doesn't it?

Airbus A330

Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by Airbus A330 »

Hello,
Will SN join the 2 Asian JV with ANA & Singapore Airlines or it's not (yet) on the table (at this stage) :?:

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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by sn-remember »

Thanks to everybody caring to answer my "panicky train of thoughts" :)
I get your point (Inquirer, good post) but I tell myself we didn't read the same ... Please could any of you show me an official statement stipulating the perennity of SN as a separate entity ? Of course they guarantee that during the transition period but after ?
You know the EuroWings project is evolving every month, they don't know precisely where they are going.
Eurowings Europe for instance was created impulsively bcs of lower operating costs in Austria compared to what EW would have beared. Germanwings as everybody knows is on the verge of being fully merged to EW. Who knows what Spohr (or one of his successors) will decide in the future and what B anchor they will tolerate ?
..
And I tell myself will Spohr let the SN BAirlines (or Wings) brand develop on the long term as a separate *A entity out of bru ? His communication is fuzzy, and I fail to see the guarantees he owes the B. state and the shareholders. What if EW go bust ? Did Davignon took care of that possibility and what provision did he foresee to save the B. airline ? In a way I feel we have every right at this stage to feel cheated.
Last edited by sn-remember on 21 Dec 2016, 13:21, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by sn-remember »

travellover wrote:Carsten spohr cited the opening of Mumbai and the creation of 200 jobs for SN at the press conference last week. LH holding to it's Indian backyard, it could be one of the signs that SN will be taken into account ?
It's to see with bilaterals rights allocated to different airlines/countries. I assume LH is currently blocked to India but SN is not :)
Last edited by sn-remember on 21 Dec 2016, 13:28, edited 2 times in total.

Passenger
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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by Passenger »

It seems that some people here know Carsten Spohr that good that they can read his mind and predict his plans with 100% certainty.

It seems that not all people here understand that "Lufthansa takes over Brussels Airlines" actually means "Deutsche Lufthansa AG takes over SN Airholding".

Therefore, nv/sa Brussels Airlines will remain as it is today: a company registered in Brussels. If not, "they" will loose the traffic rights to most African destinations (not be confused with slots).

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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by airbuske »

From the press release of Eurowings:
The Belgian airline which currently operates 15 aircraft will also become part of the growing Eurowings Group.
At this moment 50 aircrafts active at Brussels Airlines :roll:
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Airbuske

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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by sn26567 »

airbuske wrote:From the press release of Eurowings:
The Belgian airline which currently operates 15 aircraft will also become part of the growing Eurowings Group.
At this moment 50 aircraft active at Brussels Airlines :roll:
I mentioned this to Eurowings (or rather to their com consultant), but no answer so far!
Either they confused fifteen and fifty, or they switch the figure (15 iso 51).

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/eurowin ... an-routes/
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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by Apuneger »

sn26567 wrote:
airbuske wrote:From the press release of Eurowings:
The Belgian airline which currently operates 15 aircraft will also become part of the growing Eurowings Group.
At this moment 50 aircraft active at Brussels Airlines :roll:
I mentioned this to Eurowings (or rather to their com consultant), but no answer so far!
Either they confused fifteen and fifty, or they switch the figure (15 iso 51).

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/eurowin ... an-routes/
We're quite used to the general press messing up facts and figures when it comes down to aviation, but when the aviation industry itself is having a difficult time... :cry: :roll:

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Ivan
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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by sn26567 »

Two interesting articles about the takeover in the specialised press:

1. In anna.aero: Brussels Airlines set to become part of Eurowings empire by 2018; can a hub-and-spoke carrier fit into the Eurowings point-to-point model?

http://www.anna.aero/2016/12/21/brussel ... eurowings/

One important paragraph: "When asked by anna.aero the airline confirmed that overall some 40% of its passengers are connecting through Brussels with the figure higher for long-haul routes. These connecting passengers are obviously critical for the viability of these African routes, but is this model compatible with how Lufthansa sees the evolution of the airline? In the airline’s press release covering the recent announcement, Carsten Spohr, Chairman of the Board and CEO of the Deutsche Lufthansa AG is quoted as saying: “Based on its successful development, Brussels Airlines is able to play a leading role in bringing our pan-European point-to-point offer under the brand of the Eurowings Group to new successful heights.” The key phrase there is “point-to-point” which is definitely not the current Brussels Airlines business model."

2. By CAPA: Lufthansa folds Brussels Airlines into Eurowings, keeping dual brands. LH has many balls in the air

http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/l ... air-319668

Same observation: "Nevertheless, there are clear differences between Brussels Airlines' business model and that of Eurowings. Brussels Airlines is a network airline (and a Star Alliance member), while Eurowings is primarily a point-to-point airline. Furthermore, Brussels Airlines is not low cost in CASK terms, although, ominously, its unit cost is below Eurowings'."

I cannot unlock the different parts of this report. I'd appreciate it if someone could provide them.
André
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