Air France looks for investors for CityJet

[sn26567]

Air France has financial problems and is looking for investors to open the capital of its Irish regional subsidiary or even to sell it off completely, according to French economic newspaper La Tribune.

The initial idea of Air France is to invite investors into Cityjet to enable it to develop in dependently from Air France in the same way as the future French regional airline resulting from the combination of Regional, Britair and Airlinair. However, a complete sale of Cityjet is not excluded if there is an opportunity.

Maybe the VLM owners made the wrong decision when they sold the company to Air France, which decided to merge it into Cityjet.

[air belgium]

How is the route ANR-LCY doing? Any news about this? Thanks

[Flanker]

Maybe the VLM owners made the wrong decision when they sold the company to Air France, which decided to merge it into Cityjet.

Care to develop your idea?

I see it very differently. The former VG shareholders made the right decision to sell VG when it had capital and was turning profits. To date, I still wonder why AF bought this shell.

VG's issues are almost insurmountable:
-Very old fleet, nothing plausible to replace it with. Newer generation aircraft are not suitable for the low utilisation operation of VG's reverse hub operations, due to high capital cost. They need something with low capital cost that burns very little fuel and is younger than 20 years old. No such thing available in the 50 seat capacity market. A downgrade to E-120 is plausible, yet risky, it requires quite a capital investment, which is difficult to justify for the airline in its current deeply loss-making condition.
-Business environment has degraded a lot, tough revenue environment
-Increasing maintenance costs
-Increasing competition from railway network and LCC's

I don't see it lasting very long anymore.

2012-2013 will definitely redo the map of Belgian Aviation
-VG in doubt
-SN in doubt
-TAY in doubt

[shockcooling]

2012-2013 will definitely redo the map of Belgian Aviation
-VG in doubt
-SN in doubt
-TAY in doubt

I hope you're not right on this one... but can we really still talk about Belgian aviation?

-VG -> Air France
-SN -> Lufthansa
-TAY -> UPS

Anyway, Cityjet flies Avro's/Fokker 50's, not the most attractive airplanes, but still good workhorses out of LCY. Maybe a switch to newer planes long time ago would have helped, somehow the competition like KLM Cityhopper and Lufthansa Cityline don't seem to be complaining? Or is their business model different?
I wish all the best for those ex-VLM guys, who were hoping for a brighter future under the AF-roof. After all those years not so much changed after all.

[Yuri166]

-Very old fleet, nothing plausible to replace it with. Newer generation aircraft are not suitable for the low utilisation operation of VG's reverse hub operations, due to high capital cost. They need something with low capital cost that burns very little fuel and is younger than 20 years old. No such thing available in the 50 seat capacity market. A downgrade to E-120 is plausible

Very, very funny reply... Thanks for putting a smile on my face! Ever considered a career change to a cliniclown maybe?

You do realise that the Brasilia is about the most uncomfortable and unreliable turboprop of the last 30 years or so? Maintenance on them cost a small fortune, and lasts a lifetime as parts are very hard to come by these days. Or haven't you noticed that they have all but disappeared from the European skies? Now you know why... So, you think this is what a struggeling airline needs?

Let me put you on the right track...
If you want to downsize to 30 seaters, consider the DHC8-100/200, or maybe 328 (allthough this is just as a dead end as the F50).
If you want to remain in the 50 seater market, the ATR42 is still in production, and the DHC8Q300 only recently went out of it, but this one tops the comfort, reliability and robustness of the F50. So at least your clientel won't run away...

Wheather Cityjet is capable of financing a fleetchange to any type, I don't know, and is a discussion I am not going to take part in.

[Flanker]

You do realise that the Brasilia is about the most uncomfortable and unreliable turboprop of the last 30 years or so? Maintenance on them cost a small fortune, and lasts a lifetime as parts are very hard to come by these days. Or haven't you noticed that they have all but disappeared from the European skies? Now you know why... So, you think this is what a struggeling airline needs?

E120 are not maintenance hogs. They've had a few issues with the propeller pitch system but that's about it.
All aircraft have issues, don't even get me started on the Fokkers or the Avro's.
Uncomfortable? Not really, they are essentially ERJ's with turboprops, which is fine for VG's small regional network. A bit noisy on the take-off and the galley is kind of not practical but other than that, quite nice planes.

If you want to downsize to 30 seaters, consider the DHC8-100/200, or maybe 328

Well how many of those are left in the European skies? I can almost count them on one hand. You'll find far more E120's. You often see one from Swift Air at BRU by the way.
The reason for the E120's disappearance from Europe has very different reasons. It's got more to do with market dynamics than anything about the aircraft itself, other than maybe its mission profile that gets it to its flight cycles limit within shorter times.
Mind you, parts for the 328 and Dash's are much harder to come by for obvious reasons. The E120 is still in production by the way, so I don't see why you would have an issue finding parts.

If you want to remain in the 50 seater market, the ATR42 is still in production, and the DHC8Q300 only recently went out of it, but this one tops the comfort, reliability and robustness of the F50. So at least your clientel won't run away

Irrelevant because VG can't afford these.


The aviation mega specialist (not) just called me a cliniclown. I hope that the moderators noticed this.
This forum has been a one-way conversation the last times, with 3 posters holding 50 accounts under different names. I don't count on it too much

[Passenger]

The aviation mega specialist (not) just called me a cliniclown. I hope that the moderators noticed this.

Actually, he didn't called you a cliniclown. And if he would have done so, that's more an insult towards the cliniclowns. He just said "Ever considered a career change to a cliniclown maybe?". Which is, off course, also not correct. Because "career change" suggests you are now working in the aviation business - and you have proven many times you are not. Latest example: your comments about the F50.

By the way, I've heard at the airport that talks about a change in the VG-fleet are put on hold till management has seen the final plans for the Krijgsbaan. That local road next to the runway will be rebuilt as from October 2012 and the exact new runway length and hight of the fence is still unknown.

[Yuri166]

Well I don't think you have a clou what you're talking about...

E120 are not maintenance hogs. They've had a few issues with the propeller pitch system but that's about it.

I guess if you don't count the ever returning problems with the flaps, airframe de-icing, prop de-icing, bleed leaks, airco temperature control problems, stall warning faults, door warning issues, generator control faults, fuel tank leaks, wing skin angle cracking, cargodoor counterbalance failures, the aircraft is a dream. And I am sure I skipped a few issues. No, the Brasilia is a maintenance nightmare.

Uncomfortable? Not really, A bit noisy on the take-off and the galley is kind of not practical but other than that, quite nice planes.

Very noisy on take off, noisy for the remainder of the flight. Tends to vibrate a lot, even with regular prop balancing, seat arrangement of 1+2 is hopeless, very limited overhead luggage space, if you're over 5,5 ft tall, you can't stand upright, most aircraft have unreclinable cabin seats, very cramped toilets, impossible to take a leak standing, even if the thing is standing still on the ground. And then you have to close the window blind...
I dare to call that very uncomfortable. Good thing it's fast (yes, something positive as well), so the ordeal doesn't last as long...

they are essentially ERJ's with turboprops

Not even close! Yes, the basic fuselage design is the same, and the 1+2 seat arrangement is the same, but that is where the similarities end. The ERJ is a complete redesign, and a much better plane.

Well how many of those are left in the European skies? I can almost count them on one hand. You'll find far more E120's.

That is completely irrelevant, you're missing my point, or probably don't want to see it. Still, I dare to bet you on it.

You often see one from Swift Air at BRU by the way.

That is allready a while ago my friend...

Mind you, parts for the 328 and Dash's are much harder to come by for obvious reasons.

Obvious reasons...??? Yes, for the 328, but I did allready agree that that wasn't an ideal candidate. The DHC8-100/200, and the -300 for that matter, no problems what so ever! But the whole 30 seater idea is a waste of time anyway if you ask me.

The E120 is still in production by the way, so I don't see why you would have an issue finding parts.

Strange... If that is the case, lets say you're right, then why are they taking allready 11 years to build the next one?

Irrelevant because VG can't afford these.

I can't judge that, and I think no one on this forum, including you, can.




Oh, by the way, I hold a B1 and C maintenance license on the Emb120, DHC8-100/200/300/400, ATR 42/72 and F50, among others, with extensive experience in both line and base maintenance on these types as on the ERJ. Maybe I know what I am talking about...

[Flanker]

Oh, by the way, I hold a B1 and C maintenance license on the Emb120, DHC8-100/200/300/400, ATR 42/72 and F50, among others, with extensive experience in both line and base maintenance on these types as on the ERJ. Maybe I know what I am talking about...

I've seen guys with much more credentials than you sell me more cr*p than that.
In fact, to judge whether an aircraft is a maintenanc hog, you need to be a maintenance planner and an accountant at the same time. As a mechanic and base mx supervisor it's very hard to judge that.
For the A320 for instance you have many more maintenance cards for similar checks than for something like an Avro, but the tasks are easier to carry out and take much less time.

Take the Avro for instance. They have 10000 issues that need constant monitoring.
Some major, such as the engines, flap screwjacks, FQIS and structural.They have key fuselage area's prone to corrosion and every C-check is a finger-crossing event.

Whether an aircraft maintenance hog is decided by the importance of the issues, how often they occur, the manpower required (influenced by accessiblity and dimensional or know-how), whether the issues occur during regular checks or result in unplanned maintenance, how much parts cost and so on.

[Flanker]

Irrelevant because VG can't afford these.

I can't judge that, and I think no one on this forum, including you, can.

Like I said, I'm very well connected.
When I say something like that, you can be sure that I'm not sucking it off my thumb.

I also know a thing or two about the maintenance standards at VG...

This confirms my subjectivity. I don't defend anyone, be it SN, AF/KL, FR, U2 or BA/IB.
I think that all these airlines have abominable management methods and none offers an attractive business model. When I hear stories of AF's licensed B1/B2's putting their basic English understanding skills to interpret complex maintenance manual language, I become tempted to look out for falling aircraft even while simply walking down the street.
If there is an airline in the world that I like and respect, it's SQ. They have it all. (Well, I don't believe in the success of their new subsidiary, Scoot.)
My distant second is NH, which is also a great airline. Together with JL, they invest more in maintenance than any airline in the world, but they are too much behind on e-marketing. Their Skyweb is a mess.

There is only one airline in Europe that I accept to fly voluntarily and that's FR.
The reason is not the price (although that's also a nice advantage) but their overall safety culture and the way they invested in simplifying their processes. This not only cut costs, but also reduced risk.
This is the big problem at SN: their processes are not designed for a large operation. This results in the need for increased resources (not only human), which increases their costs significantly but also in loss of revenue:
If you hear the story of how Gustin nickle and dimed about moral compensation of a passenger who received hydraulic oil on his clothes during that leak incident a few years back.
I would have given all those customers unlimited standby flying privileges during one year, which would have been a huge media stunt and resulted in millions of additional revenues from the free publicity. Instead it resulted in a saving of 0 euro's as standby tickets are empty seats by definition, and losing some customers who will now talk other customers out of flying SN.

There are however things that I hate about FR: their cabin crew's carelessness, loud announcements and noisy co-passengers (the solution for both are a set of good earplugs) the obnoxious interior colors, the often dirty floors, some very hard landings that made me wonder whether my spinal chord was still in one piece....

[Yuri166]

I've seen guys with much more credentials than you sell me more cr*p than that.

Well I guess that says it all then...
You are that guy that responds to the radio announcement that there is somebody driving on the wrong side of the highway (spookrijder) with the prolific words: "Only one? I can see hundreds..."

End of discussion as far as I am concearned.

[regi]

Sorry Yuri, but you are the wrong person.

Because you ignored my warning in another post: don't react on "IT"
"It" has succeeded again to hijack a subject by upsetting a member. And you stepped straight in "it's" trap.

Very simple: ignore "it".

[Flanker]

The biased moderators aren't doing anything about this post from regi, although I have reported it.

As is obvious, regi is insulting me of "animal".
What do you think of this double standard of the moderators?
Are they still objective enough to be playing that role?

[RoMax]

Flanker, read your own reaction again, if you don't see that there is 'something' not right in the tone of that comment than, maybe, regi is right to refere to you as "it"...

Yuri is simply giving his own expertise and you break him down for no reason (as I have the idea you have no clue about the things he says, but of course you are the master in aviation management, maintenance, de-icing, technology,...)

[Flanker]

Flanker, read your own reaction again, if you don't see that there is 'something' not right in the tone of that comment than, maybe, regi is right to refere to you as "it"...

Yuri is simply giving his own expertise and you break him down for no reason (as I have the idea you have no clue about the things he says, but of course you are the master in aviation management, maintenance, de-icing, technology,...)

He started with

Very, very funny reply...

Then went on with:

Ever considered a career change to a cliniclown maybe?

Then tried to sell me how his maintenance licenses made him a qualified person to compare maintenance cost of different aircraft. This while he doesn't know that the E120 is still in production and that the supply chain is active. So the fact that the E120 parts are expensive was a pure guess.

He went on with how there aren't many E120's left in Europe, to which I responded that the alternatively aircraft he offered, ie the Dashe's and the Do328 weren't neither in production neither to be found in huge numbers in Europe. Which basically means that his argument was invalid.

I find it harsh for someone to make fun of someone else, before selling a load of inaccuracies.
I've done a E120 operating cost comparison as part of a running procurement tender for old and new turboprops in this category and this is using real-life data from several operators.
Do I have to mention these things each and everytime?

Shall I add that most mechanics of the older pre-EASA generations have no understanding of basic aerodynamics? Only few would know what the coffin corner is and most seem to think that flaps are used to slow down aircraft. Mechanics never come in contact with the cost side of maintenance, they only sometimes hear that that part costs that much and this much and that this job takes this or that much time.
They have no idea of how that all translates into maintenance efficiency calculated at an hourly operating cost basis.

Tell me, am I wrong Yuri?

I think that you should view this as a learning opportunity.
Yes there are people out there who come in contact with all of these things by having helped build business cases for start-ups and post a whole library for free on this forum. You should consider yourself lucky that you have access to all this information for free.

Never have I claimed that I'm never wrong but when I post something, I make sure that it's accurate. As for analysis, it's speculation based on awareness and information available.
When I say that VG can't afford brand new ATR42's, I just know that it's like that, without the need to give up who told me that.


So tell me where was I not polite, considering that I've been insulted from the start?

[RoMax]

You know what's my idea about the 'insulting comments' you get, even become you really become rude. You've a reputation, a reputation that turns against you.

[regi]

Maybe the VLM owners made the wrong decision when they sold the company to Air France, which decided to merge it into Cityjet.

Do you mean they should have kept a minority stake with first purchasing right?

[Air Key West]

Selling VLM was perhaps not the best option for VLM itself and for its employees, but it was probably the best option from a financial point of view for the owners.

[Yuri166]

Ok, one final time, because you asker me so friendly.

Tell me, am I wrong Yuri?

Yes Flanker, you are wrong. In fact it is clear and utter BS.

Two little points to take out of your proza:

1st:
The remaining 120's in europe are 20. Most of them in spain and or former soviet countries. The remaining 328's are 23, and that is just the props. Remaining DHC8-100/200 is 38. Those are active aircraft on EU registers at this moment.

Those are easy verifiable numbers on several online databases. Just do your homework, and don't pretend to know.

2nd:
And with this one, I am calling your bluf. Let us put something at stake. If I am wrong, I appologise to you, and dissapear from this forum. If you're wrong, you appologise to the whole forum, and dissapear from it.

Proof to me that Emb120, msn 120359, which was build and delivered to the Angolan Air force in 2001 as T-500, and crashed last year killing 17 of 23 on board, was not the last production Emb120, and that production continues to this date. And let it be understood that if somebody orders enough aircraft that restart of the production is viable, actually means and confirms that the production is stopped, and certainly does not run today.

Deal?

In any case, this is the last response you are getting out of me. The ignore function is back on.

[regi]

I don't agree with the prize of the bet: excuse and leaving this forum ( that is too easy).
May I suggest the following: the loser of the bet pays a ticket Dhaka - Sylhet go/return with Biman. ( = 122 $) Travel to and from Dhaka is of course at the discretion of the winner. The money of this marvelous prize will be transfered if the winner has written a full travel report, including pictures of airports, airplanes, 3M duct tape, toilets, insuline syringes and other typical paraphernalia of Biman travellers.
O, Yuri, I consider you as the loser beforehand because the manufacturing line for that Brasilia thing is theoretically still open. So your opponent will claim victory. But don't feel humiliated by this, please read further...
Please, excuse yourself to "it" and grant him the prize of that ticket ( to be flown in the monsoon season ) I am sure that most of Luchtzak-habitués will gladly contribute to this ticket. And than starts the long wait until the report arrives full of excuses such as:

• the airplane skipped the runway ( 50% chance) http://www.thedailystar.net/2004/10/10/d4101001022.htm
  I had no internet http://www.tripadvisor.nl/Hotel_Review- ... ylhet.html
  my booking had disappeared from their system.
  no flight because of the monsoon
  I had to wait for 3 days in the departure hall.
  My luggage + laptop disappeared/was stolen.
  I got a mental breakdown/aka heart attack ( 100% chance )

scratch scratch, wonder what this has to do wihh Cityjet