BRU reacts on the subsidising of regional airports

[fretn]

(I haven't seen this posted yet)

http://standaard.be/artikel/detail.aspx ... 111201_161 (in Dutch only)

Brussels Airport haalt uit naar subsidies aan regionale luchthavens

De subsidiepolitiek ten voordele van regionale luchthavens creëert jobs op die luchthavens, maar gaat ten koste van méér jobs elders in België. Dat zegt Brussels Airport in een reactie op uitspraken van Waals minister André Antoine (CDH) afgelopen weekend in de krant L'Echo.
Antoine vindt dat luchtvaartmaatschappij Brussels Airlines ook vluchten kan uitvoeren vanuit Charleroi, verwijzend naar de lagere luchthaventaksen en heffingen daar.

Brussels Airport wijst erop dat de luchthaven van Charleroi elk jaar tientallen miljoenen euro's regionale subsidies ontvangt, en dat ze geen bijdrage betaalt aan Belgocontrol voor de werkingskosten van de luchtverkeersleiding. Dat is goed voor een bijdrage van ongeveer 15 euro per vertrekkende passagier in Charleroi, zo berekende de nationale luchthaven.

De Ierse maatschappij Ryanair is volgens Brussels Airport de belangrijkste begunstigde van dat systeem. De luchthaven merkt op dat voor het vervoeren van een gelijk aantal passagiers een Belgische maatschappij zoals Brussels Airlines in ons land vier keer zoveel jobs genereert als een buitenlandse maatschappij.

De subsidiepolitiek leidt voor het totaal van onze nationale werkgelegenheid en sociale zekerheid tot een negatief jobsaldo, zo besluit Brussels Airport.

De luchthaven stelt daarom voor om een dialoog te openen met de regionale en federale overheden en alle betrokken spelers om een nationale luchtvaartpolitiek uit te werken die een gezonde toekomst kan verzekeren voor de Belgische luchtvaartsector.

BRU in the attack?

[Acid-drop]

this is ridiculous for 3 reasons :
1. BRU is fighting a whole system, the ryanair system, in place pretty much everywhere in Europe.
2. That system is profitable to the economy of the country. Yes some jobs maybe have been moved from one place to another (still to proove), but there is also a lot of new jobs that were created. They call for a belgian rule, count also for belgian job count.
3. A national rule would only make us loose all, against other european airport very close, Lille, Eindhoven, Maastricht, Cologne, Dusseldorf are less than 1h away from many belgians.

Trap a cat in a corner, and he'll fight stupid.

[OO-JFP]

Acid-drop,

always your same bla bla bla but never facts or figures (except for freight tonnage in LGG and even they seem to smell now).

What can be against the fact that airlines have to pay for services they use? ATC is an important one, can you prove that Ryanair doesn't have to pay for similar services in the Netherlands, France or Germany? No.
It's only in Belgium that "someone else" pays for them. And why? It would hurt the prestige projects of the Walloon government in CRL and LGG.
The Ryanair system: in the CRL topic we can read that they will reduce flights to Riga because of higher security taxes to be paid. Are they going to reduce flights or axe destinations if they have to pay ATC fees in Belgium? Very likely. If there is a Ryanair system, it's there because of the subsidies (and it's mainly profitable for Ryanair itself). I assume you're also surprised that Belgium is one of their favorite countries. I'm not.
In the offer made by Mr Antoine it seems that the operating cost of CRL is more than 10 times lower than the cost in BRU, is the CRL personnel that much underpaid?
What I mean is: CRL can stay but competition has to be fair. Yes, it has created jobs and still creates but why do we never see the cost associated to that? Money never seems to be an issue for Wallonia except during negotiations for a new government. You probably already forgot that 60 positions have to go with Brussels Airlines too (in which Wallonia has a stake too I think).

Brussels Airlines' reaction is a valid reaction, your comment on it is ridiculous.
Your friend,
OO-JFP

[Acid-drop]

ATC is the only sensible message. It should be paid like anywhere else.
The rest stays pure non sense.
Some people are really trying hard to sabotage any good business of Wallonia and it is shamefull.
Don't be surprised they are money transfers then !

Yes, it has created jobs and still creates but why do we never see the cost associated to that?

Subsidies come from the walloon pocket and the job created pay taxes to the federal pocket and take less from the federal unemployment pocket. This should make you happy. This is also creating less money transfer and happier people, healthy people who wake up in the morning instead of spending the day counting their fingers. I see only benefits. There is no prestige at trying to give a job to all.

[cnc]

and the job created pay taxes to the federal pocket and take less from the federal unemployment pocket.

sounds like sabena doesn't it?

[liege-bierset]

Trop de taxes pour être compétitif à Zaventem ?

Mis en ligne le 22/11/2011

Compétitivité D’après les dirigeants et administrateurs de Brussels Airlines, la législation belge ne leur fait "pas de cadeau". Selon eux, l’indexation des salaires, la nouvelle taxe sur les émissions C02 (édictée par l’Europe, mais dont la somme revient à l’Etat belge) et les "menaces" d’une nouvelle taxe sur l’aviation évoquée par les négociateurs coûteront plusieurs dizaines de millions d’euros à la société en 2012. "Cela nuit clairement à notre compétitivité internationale" , explique Bernard Gustin qui dénonce aussi les "faveurs" faites aux compagnies low-cost et à l’aéroport de Charleroi. R.Me.
(La Libre Belgique)

Mr Antoine is just stupid, Brussels Airlines should and will never accept to move some flights to CLR. We all known that Antoine is a stirrer, not to say troublemaker. Local elections should take place in a few months from now, he is already trying to attract attention with such a speech, nothing to worry about.
Having said that, today we see an airline company having accumulated loses reaching 131M Eur , of which 80M only for this current fiscal year (excusez du peu !)
They try to explain us how much they suffer from unfair competition of Walloon Airports. This justification is simply pathetic, pitiful and hilarious.
All airlines are having though time and are talking about high fuel cost. Here Bru airlines and BRU airport are complaining about unfair regional, small airports.
Let's hope LH finally decides to take full control and turns-around in order to make it profitable and not repeat the BMI story.
Our best friends over the fence should know that here in Wallonie we are sick-to-death of always hearing and reading the same garbage from them and Flemish press.

[fretn]

There's this ugly trend lately of getting politics involved into luchtzak. I thought this was about aviation?

[OO-JFP]

Let's hope LH finally decides to take full control and turns-around in order to make it profitable and not repeat the BMI story.

Worst case scenario would be if LH pulls-out of the project (perhaps the Brussels Airlines reaction was suggested by LH???). It wouldn't take too long before we see a Ryanair B738 sporting "Bye bye Brussels Airlines" titles.

My last reaction on this topic:

Our best friends over the fence should know that here in Wallonie we are sick-to-death of always hearing and reading the same garbage from them and Flemish press.

As long as part of my tax money is used to sponsor Wallonia, I have the right to tell what I want.

Best regards,
OO-JFP

[flightlover]

ATC is the only sensible message. It should be paid like anywhere else.
The rest stays pure non sense.
Some people are really trying hard to sabotage any good business of Wallonia and it is shamefull.
Don't be surprised they are money transfers then !

Yes, it has created jobs and still creates but why do we never see the cost associated to that?

Subsidies come from the walloon pocket and the job created pay taxes to the federal pocket and take less from the federal unemployment pocket. This should make you happy. This is also creating less money transfer and happier people, healthy people who wake up in the morning instead of spending the day counting their fingers. I see only benefits. There is no prestige at trying to give a job to all.

Off topic indeed, but who fills that walloon pocket? Wright, the transfers. And what do they do with that? Try to lure jobs from flanders to them. This is no national solution in any way. certainly if they do compeed with un-equal weapons (no ATC cost). And even less if you see that most jobs are taken by non belgian workers (the ryanair staf)

Or is the whole goal of the excercise to be a better bride for france?

And yess, as you can expect I'm an affected worker who is able, by even more taxes, to be f***** ones more by the solidarity with a region that slept for way to long.

Sorry to be so off topic (or not)

[sn26567]

Last Warning !

Stop politics in this thread, else I start deleting posts !!!

Back to the topic please !

[Acid-drop]

oh common. You are ridiculous.
There is nothing to say anymore. M. Antoine suggested a win-win. SN doesn't like the idea, so be it.
They have deep financial problems, but it's still a free company, they do whatever they like.

[airazurxtror]

Exactly.
An interesting price is offered to airlines by BSCA.
Ryanair, Jetairfly and a few others have accepted the deal.
Brussels Airlines don't find it interesting and refuse (it's of course their right).
End of story !
Further political comments by a half-CEO of Brussels Airlines are off topic, in my view.

[Yuri166]

I suggest you guys just go to the AF website, and book a flight to CDG with a connecting flight from ORY. I am just curious if you find this a good idea, and if it works well. Would it draw a lot of customers you think? I think I know the answer to that. So the only way for SN to profit from the subsadies of CRL is to move all business there over night. Very realistic right? And then the airport will be promoted from regional to national, and all subsidies will be gone anyway... So where is the win-win?
So it is a fair question to ask if it is wise for Belgian authorities to undermine the position of the Belgian national carrier by creating unfair competition for foreign carriers whose only loyalty is to their bankaccount.
Not that that is a bad thing, and competition is good, but lets keep it fair. And for the authorities, what are we investing in anyway? What is the need for a second major airport in the Brussels area? London, Paris ok, but Brussels? Note that ANR is also pretty close, are they subsadising Cityjet in the same way?

[airazurxtror]

So it is a fair question to ask if it is wise for Belgian authorities to undermine the position of the Belgian national carrier by creating unfair competition for foreign carriers whose only loyalty is to their bankaccount.

I beg humbly to submit that we are all together in the European Union, and that the notion of "national" carrier is a bit anachronistic.
Ryanair, Jetairfly, Brussels Airlines : all are national carriers for us - in the sense that they are all European carriers.
Aviation is in the lead as regards European integration : for instance all flights originating and ending in the EU are considered as domestic flights. Another example : there is one black list of airlines, valid for the whole EU.
Moreover, as we host in our country the capital of the EU, we should perhaps be amongst the first to think European !

[sean1982]

And even less if you see that most jobs are taken by non belgian workers (the ryanair staf)

And what are you sources Flightlover? The rate of Belgian Pilots is very high in CRL and also a good amount waiting in bases abroad ready to come back. Don't talk about things you don't know anything about

[Passenger]

Last Warning !

Stop politics in this thread, else I start deleting posts !!!

Back to the topic please !

Moderator, with all respect : it's hard to discuss about a political interference in aviation without talking about politics. A distinction indeed has to be made between politics and party politics.

After all, it wasn't aliens who have changed the name of Charleroi into Brussels South - just like aliens are not responsible for the name Ostend into Ostend/Bruges. Politicians did these stupid changes.

[Acid-drop]

I suggest you guys just go to the AF website, and book a flight to CDG with a connecting flight from ORY. I am just curious if you find this a good idea, and if it works well. Would it draw a lot of customers you think? I think I know the answer to that. So the only way for SN to profit from the subsadies of CRL is to move all business there over night. Very realistic right?

I like the comparison, but it's not quite showing the proposition with 10% of trafic.
The people who do BRU-MAD for holidays don't care if it's a part of the flights or not, an airport or another, they want it cheap. Just like the flights OST to Agadir.

And even less if you see that most jobs are taken by non belgian workers (the ryanair staf)

Dunno about the ryanair staff, but there are also plenty of jobs on the ground for local people. And that's what's missing in wallonia : low qualifications jobs. Engineers don't have problems.

Moderator, with all respect : it's hard to discuss about a political interference in aviation without talking about politics. A distinction indeed has to be made between politics and party politics.

I tend to agree. It's hard to me to not answer some of the msgs. If someone hates politics, just ignore this topic, there are plenty of other interesting topics to read on this forum.

[tolipanebas]

The rate of Belgian Pilots is very high in CRL and also a good amount waiting in bases abroad ready to come back. Don't talk about things you don't know anything about

Just for the record here: all those Belgian pilots working at CRL, thus in Belgium... where are they paying their income taxes, pension fees and social security again?

Mind be interesting to know for those Belgian readers of this forum, who will be all asked by the new Belgian government to pay their fair portion of extra Belgian taxes....

[regi]

Mind be interesting to know for those Belgian readers of this forum, who will be all asked by the new Belgian government to pay their fair portion of extra Belgian taxes....

This is another subject we discussed already.
Brussels airlines can do the same , just as the Belgian shipping companies outflagged most ships to Luxembourg (which has no coastline )
I found this article from 1995 concerning outflagging...Sabena to Luxembourg.
http://www.tijd.be/algemeen/algemeen/Sa ... 13-534.art

[Squelsh]

Godfroid.. Guess once which politians (not going to mention names) made a whole media-rage out of that idea.. No precedents allowed back then