Air India or Jet Airways, who will join Star Alliance?

[134flyer]

The only question is, will Star continiou with AI and if yes are they going to aggree with 9W to join?

Dumping AI would be a foolish thing to do as it will harm Star (and certainly LH) in India. AI still has some political backing. Personally I think that the politicians in India will be very important in deciding what will happen with 9W in Star.

Well, AI is still struggling to join Star; entry (again) postponed until at least June 2011, if ever...

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ry/415725/

Perhaps 9W is indeed in advanced talks with SkyTeam, but is it ST who is trying to get 9W in, or does 9W want to join ST, as they think it is impossible to join Star. Or, is 9W just negotiating with ST to put some pressure on Star?! Afterall, e.g. CO took action to merge with UA when news broke that UA was negotiating with US. Apparently UA only did this to put pressure on CO to merge with them, and UA actually had no intention to merge with US...

Anyway, Star/LH should take some action if they would like to have an Indian member in the future at all: if things continue like this, in 2018 9W will already be a ST member for 7 years, while AI still won't be a Star member and is still trying to fix their IT problems'. India, the country where 'we' are outsourcing our IT to...

[Conti764]

The only question is, will Star continiou with AI and if yes are they going to aggree with 9W to join?

Dumping AI would be a foolish thing to do as it will harm Star (and certainly LH) in India. AI still has some political backing. Personally I think that the politicians in India will be very important in deciding what will happen with 9W in Star.

Aren't we overestimating India's willingnes to go far in avenging AI being kicked out of Star Alliance? I mean, sure they wouldn't be happy with the situation, but they cannot afford to just harras the biggest alliance in international aviation with some major players in India's foreign connections. It would hurt Star Alliance and its members, but it would hurt India as well.

Star Alliance can't afford to just keep losing time with that pathetic excuse for an airline Air India has become. Kingfisher (generally considered the 'best' Indian airline servicewise) has gone to Oneworld and Jet Airways (far better in service then Air India and India's largest private carrier) is looming towards Skyteam (or at least ST is doing its very best to get them into the alliance).

Soon both Skyteam and Oneworld will have their piece of the Indian pie and they can work into fully integrating 9W and Kingfisher into their respectitive alliances. And all that's left for Star Alliance is ugly duck Air India which seemingly can't get its act together.

I'd say to Star Alliance: take the loss, take the Indian government being mad at you, but cut Air India loose and do it fast! Negotiate 9W into the alliance and start 'diplomatic contacts' with the Indian government. Sure they will appear to be mad and will make harsh statements, but in the end they will accept the situation since they simply cannot afford to keep fighting the worlds biggest alliance and the country's biggest private airline.

It's not an ideal solution, but Air India is too much of a mess, 9W is eager to join an alliance and *A would be the best option and in todays aviation with an ever growing DL, AF/KLM and Skyteam as a whole, they cannot afford to loose to much time.

[Boeing767copilot]

Air India will become a full Star Alliance member in June or July 2011, a source close to the Star Alliance management told ATW at the recent ALTA meeting in Panama City.

source: ATW

[RoMax]

Air India will become a full Star Alliance member in June or July 2011, a source close to the Star Alliance management told ATW at the recent ALTA meeting in Panama City.

source: ATW

Normally they will, but... Air India recently (last week) said that they have still big dificulties to meet Star Alliance standards. Many of their facilities are outdated and not up to Star Alliance standards. LH is helping them with the integrating proces but even with the help of LH it seems to be difficult. Another thing, the financial side. The amount of pax are rising and their loss is decreasing, but they are still financial unstable.

Currently Air India is far from ready to join Star, I'm wondering if they will in June/July 2011...

[euroflyer]

India is a VERY important market for the LH group. Just look at the number of flights LH (plus LX and OS) do operate to India on their own metal. Do not think any European airline is even close to them here. And from what I have heard it is a very attractive and succesful market regarding profit for LH as well. In order to be able to continue this they need a positive attitude from the Indian government (traffic rights, allocation of slots, etcetera). I could imagine there is a kind of deal between LH, the Indian government and AI that LH helps AI to get into Star and to upgrade to the Star standards in exchange for the good access to the Indian market for LH. So I would expect it is very unlikely Star will stop the integration of AI or give 9W priority. I would assume for LH (and therefore for Star) it is mainly important to be able to fly to as many Indian airports as possible directly on their own metal from their European hubs, and therefore they need support from the Indian government (and therefore they have to please Air India) and NOT necessarily a very attractive Indian partner airline with a good inflight service ... But just my view

[tolipanebas]

Indeed, the LH group is the undisputed market leader on the EU to India market, topping even BA!

A special relationship with the Indian government is thus key to preserve this market share, especially in the light of the ever growing competition from Gulf carriers like EK for instance and for this it is highly important to successfully bring Air India in STAR, even if it means loosing Jet Airways.

[134flyer]

India is a VERY important market for the LH group. Just look at the number of flights LH (plus LX and OS) do operate to India on their own metal. Do not think any European airline is even close to them here. And from what I have heard it is a very attractive and succesful market regarding profit for LH as well. In order to be able to continue this they need a positive attitude from the Indian government (traffic rights, allocation of slots, etcetera). I could imagine there is a kind of deal between LH, the Indian government and AI that LH helps AI to get into Star and to upgrade to the Star standards in exchange for the good access to the Indian market for LH. So I would expect it is very unlikely Star will stop the integration of AI or give 9W priority. I would assume for LH (and therefore for Star) it is mainly important to be able to fly to as many Indian airports as possible directly on their own metal from their European hubs, and therefore they need support from the Indian government (and therefore they have to please Air India) and NOT necessarily a very attractive Indian partner airline with a good inflight service ... But just my view

Yes, indeed: if Star/LH would dump AI, then as a consequence it is very likely that LH will loose those extra traffic rights they got in return for AI's entry in Star as well... I am sure however that LH/Star are not standing on the sideline and that they are in close contact with the Indian gvmt about this.

I guess some time ago LH/Star would have thought that AI would be a Star member by now, after which 9W potentially could join Star as well (LH stated in the past that Star could handle 2 Indian members). However, as AI still hasn't joined, 9W is starting to run out of time and now ST are after them as well.

Having said that, at first AI would have a (delayed) entry of March 2011, then June 2011, now it's June or July 2011, so another month added again...

[Conti764]

Indeed, the LH group is the undisputed market leader on the EU to India market, topping even BA!

A special relationship with the Indian government is thus key to preserve this market share, especially in the light of the ever growing competition from Gulf carriers like EK for instance and for this it is highly important to successfully bring Air India in STAR, even if it means loosing Jet Airways.

I guess by the end of the year Kingfisher is in Oneworld and Jet Airways in Skyteam. Maybe by then AI stopped screwing things up, got its act together and finally officialy became a full member of the alliance they were invited to join 4 years earlier (!).

It's a shame for SN and BRU to loose 9W as a partner and airline respectively, but I cannot believe Skyteam will allow Star Alliance to have 2 Indian airlines in its group, it would put ST at a major disadvantage.

Does anyone know what loosing 9W would mean for BRU in terms of annual pax and for SN as feeding airline?

And to be honest, I believe SN is in the wrong alliance... They could have played a far bigger role in Oneworld.

[fretn]

Anyway, it will be painfull for jet airways to leave brussels.
Now that they have some brand recognition they would have to move, quite sad.

I do see them keeping a daily flight to brussels from mumbai/delhi.

[RoMax]

I guess by the end of the year Kingfisher is in Oneworld and Jet Airways in Skyteam. Maybe by then AI stopped screwing things up, got its act together and finally officialy became a full member of the alliance they were invited to join 4 years earlier (!).

It's a shame for SN and BRU to loose 9W as a partner and airline respectively, but I cannot believe Skyteam will allow Star Alliance to have 2 Indian airlines in its group, it would put ST at a major disadvantage.

It's logicall ST wants 9W, but 9W only sees ST as their back up plan (that's also why they are already going to start a codeshare with Alitalia from MXP to some EU destinations). 9W actually wants Star Alliance because their most important partners (AC, SN, UA) are in it and their international hub is a Star Alliance hub. They build out a pretty important hub in BRU and their codeshares with SN delivers them "a lot of pax" out of BRU and AC and UA delivers them a lot of pax in LHR (wich makes them stronger in the tough competition with BA/IT). They don't want to give this up, but if they can't join Star fast enough they have to (and will) leave BRU, SN, UA... and go to Skyteam.

Skyteam can offer 9W whatever they want, if Star Alliance/AI aggrees with 9W joining them 9W will go to Star without doubt. But the question remains if AI will aggree with 9W. Star will not dump AI because they are too important (reasons already explained by others), but Star said some time ago that they are talking with AI and the Indian aviation ministry about the posibility of 9W to join. The only thing that has to happen is that AI has to aggree. Maybe we'll know more over a few weeks, in New Zealand there is the annual board meeting of Star Alliance from 12 to 14 December. There they will vote on new members, probably 9W will be discussed also...

And to be honest, I believe SN is in the wrong alliance... They could have played a far bigger role in Oneworld.

Could be, but the LH group is a much more powerfull partner. BA was also candidate to take over SN, but I suppose LH offered SN (and especially SN's shareholders) much more than BA.

[cnc]

i still don't get why most people here are so narrow minded in terms of alliances
9W joining skyteam doesn't mean they will move their hub nor does it mean they have cancel or lose codeshare agreements with airlines from other alliances. sure it might end on some routes if the airlines have options from withing the alliance

[RoMax]

i still don't get why most people here are so narrow minded in terms of alliances
9W joining skyteam doesn't mean they will move their hub nor does it mean they have cancel or lose codeshare agreements with airlines from other alliances. sure it might end on some routes if the airlines have options from withing the alliance

9W said that they stop their coorperation with SN (and probably other Star members) and quite BRU as hub if they join Skyteam.

[cnc]

source?
i don't say i don't believe you but it seems rather absurd

[sn26567]

The fact that Garuda Indonesia will join SkyTeam might give a better chance of 9W to join Star Alliance.

[Atlantis]

It's a shame for SN and BRU to loose 9W as a partner and airline respectively, but I cannot believe Skyteam will allow Star Alliance to have 2 Indian airlines in its group, it would put ST at a major disadvantage.

Does anyone know what loosing 9W would mean for BRU in terms of annual pax and for SN as feeding airline?

And to be honest, I believe SN is in the wrong alliance... They could have played a far bigger role in Oneworld.

Like I said earlier, it is a shame for BRU and SN to loose a partner like 9W but it is not their fault if 9W will chose an other alliance. And saying, not you Conti764 , but an other member, "bring Air India in Star, even if it means loosing Jet Airways. Sorry but that is narrow thinking and even marginal. They forgot perhaps how many pax of 9W travelling via BRU to reach other parts in Europe and further.

Does anyone know what loosing 9W would mean for BRU in terms of annual pax and for SN as feeding airline?

9W brings 800.000 to 870.000 pax a year via BRU. Transit and transfer pax are also very high the last couple of years since 9W is flying to BRU. Don't forget that 9W is the biggest long haul operator at BRU.

But there is a plan B.

[RoMax]

source?
i don't say i don't believe you but it seems rather absurd

I think they said it in "De tijd". They said they want to join Star Alliance, but if they can't they will join Skyteam. The result of that would be the end of the big cooperation with SN and the end of their hub in BRU. Wich doesn't mean they will stop all routes, like fretn said some post earlier, a daily Mumbai (or/and Delhi) should still be possible. But 9W joining Skyteam means the end of their hub in BRU.

I aggree with you that joining ST doesn't mean they have to stop/replace ALL codeshares with Star/OW members, but a hub in a Star Alliance hub while you are in ST...no, ST will not aggree with that.

[cnc]

but a hub in a Star Alliance hub while you are in ST...no, ST will not aggree with that.

why wouldn't they? there are tons of airports that serve as a hub for more then one alliance.

[RoMax]

but a hub in a Star Alliance hub while you are in ST...no, ST will not aggree with that.

why wouldn't they? there are tons of airports that serve as a hub for more then one alliance.

Yes but why keeping a hub in BRU without codeshares with SN (ST will certainly not aggree with a big codeshare with a Star member while there a alternatives). MXP/Alitalia could replace this if they join ST, they will not keep their hub in BRU if they don't join Star.

[Atlantis]

but a hub in a Star Alliance hub while you are in ST...no, ST will not aggree with that.

why wouldn't they? there are tons of airports that serve as a hub for more then one alliance.

Correct, BRU is one of those. Star is the biggest alliance at BRU, but Oneworld is growing very fast at BRU, so you can say that there are almost two "hubs" at BRU.

[Megaman]

I think Jet could be tempted to join another alliance.

But If star wants AI to join and if AI wants to reduce competition, they should want Jet to be on their side.

I'm sure AI is for a duopoly (they can't have the monopole then might as well secure what can be secured). That way they control prices and kill competition together.

Besides, I doubt the indian gvt would allow healthy competition between gvt owned AI and private held jet.

Is india a liberal or a protectionate state?

So Jet (if they don't want to have a blocked future) may have no other choice to join star. And it might even be in their interest too.