B744 with 5 engines

Propwash · Post by **Propwash** » 23 Dec 2009, 19:04

BTW It's for maintenance

NCB · Post by **NCB** » 23 Dec 2009, 19:19

That's how they ferry engines sometimes.

Post by **sdbelgium** » 23 Dec 2009, 19:21

NCB wrote:That's how they ferry engines sometimes.

Was also the case this time. The aircraft had an engine failure on departure out of SIN on Dec 17, and returned to SIN. After that, an engine change was made and the failed engine was taken back to SYD on the "5th pod".

Propwash · Post by **Propwash** » 23 Dec 2009, 19:46

There's another reason .... 5th engine

If it's transported as normal cargo you'll need to pay import taxes & duties and that's a hell of a lot of money on a multi-million dollar engine.

Flying the part 'underneath' in, (installed on another aircraft as equipment) it's part of the plane and not cargo.

You can then swap it for another like part on another one of your own planes without import taxes & duties.

Established02 · Post by **Established02** » 23 Dec 2009, 22:33

Propwash wrote:There's another reason .... 5th engine
If it's transported as normal cargo you'll need to pay import taxes & duties

Really? Then why don't they put this 5th engine more often, if it would be that much cheaper?
At BRU I have often seen big engines being offloaded as cargo.
However I have never seen a 747 coming in at BRU with a 5th engine.

Conti764 · Post by **Conti764** » 23 Dec 2009, 23:09

How do they attach it? Do all Boeing 747's have this as standard or did Qantas add it?

Post by **sdbelgium** » 23 Dec 2009, 23:12

I think all 744s have this modification on one wing (or maybe even both?) which enables them to carry along another engine.

sn_rj85 · Post by **sn_rj85** » 23 Dec 2009, 23:47

Established02 wrote:Then why don't they put this 5th engine more often, if it would be that much cheaper?

Don't forget that such a non-operational engine creates a lot of drag on one side of the plane. The other four operational engines need to burn more fuel to compensate that!
The problem when transporting a defective engine on a pax - 747 is that the cargo door simply isn't wide enough to put it in the cargo area! And sending a 74F just to pick up one engine is also costly.
I don't think you want a factory new engine just hanging there to save some money. The risk of damaging it is a bit to high IMO.

Normally a fifth engine suspension is available on all 747's.

NCB · Post by **NCB** » 23 Dec 2009, 23:56

Flying Tiger is right. Whoever told propwash about the customs didn't know what he was talking about.
No matter how you ferry the engine custom charges would not apply since the engine is taken back to the place where it came from, which is not an import nor an export.

Also, customs regulations apply equally to any part of the airplane if the intention was actually an import.

If QF ferries a new engine from the factory to its MX facilities in Australia, the engine will be subject to customs clearance.

Speaking of, doesn't Belgium have a special policy with regards to VAT/BTW/TVA exemption on imported aircarft parts? I remember reading something about that somewhere.

Propwash · Post by **Propwash** » 24 Dec 2009, 06:31

NCB wrote:Flying Tiger is right. Whoever told propwash about the customs didn't know what he was talking about.

No matter how you ferry the engine custom charges would not apply since the engine is taken back to the place where it came from, which is not an import nor an export.

If you transport the classic way, it's a lot of BS administration.

You must have all the documents that allows for the temporary import of goods without paying duty or taxes provided you export the item before the predetermined deadline.

This takes a lot of time to set up and involve a lot of tape and isn't very useful for fast delivery of aircraft parts in case of AOG (Aircraft On Ground).

andorra-airport · Post by **andorra-airport** » 24 Dec 2009, 06:40

Speaking of, doesn't Belgium have a special policy with regards to VAT/BTW/TVA exemption on imported aircarft parts? I remember reading something about that somewhere.

You are correct. You need a special T5 document (A legal copy that functions as a monitoring paper for special cases of goods transportation in the EU).

It is mostly used for aircraft parts, the importer may be exempt from duty and or vat when importing aircraft parts.

Nevihta · Post by **Nevihta** » 24 Dec 2009, 09:11

There's been a crash, I can't remember which, with a 747 with a 5th engine. They suspected the 5th engine, but finally it was not the cause. In the 80's

Propwash · Post by **Propwash** » 24 Dec 2009, 09:22

Nevihta wrote:There's been a crash, I can't remember which, with a 747 with a 5th engine. They suspected the 5th engine, but finally it was not the cause. In the 80's

Air India Boeing 747-237B FLT 182 (VT-EFO)?

Nevihta · Post by **Nevihta** » 24 Dec 2009, 10:07

Yep, and I think cruise speed was reduced due to 5th engine.

Desert Rat · Post by **Desert Rat** » 24 Dec 2009, 10:24

It was possible to do the same thing on the 707.
Is it allowed to operate revenue flight in such a configuration, it's another question mark.

chornedsnorkack · Post by **chornedsnorkack** » 24 Dec 2009, 10:56

The Air India 747 blown up by bomb had 5th engine on revenue flight.

Could A340 or A380 have 5th engine?

9vsmu · Post by **9vsmu** » 24 Dec 2009, 12:08

sdbelgium wrote:I think all 744s have this modification on one wing (or maybe even both?) which enables them to carry along another engine.

You're right. All 744 have these attachpoints on the left wing,......... but not all carriers (or a/c ??) are certified to fly with fifth pod.

If memory serves well, a 747 engine will fit on the maindeck of a 747 freighter, possible with external cowling removed.

andorra-airport · Post by **andorra-airport** » 25 Dec 2009, 06:16

And here a rare picture of a running(!!!) 5th engine.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/19 ... amily.html

flightlover · Post by **flightlover** » 25 Dec 2009, 08:17

9vsmu wrote:
sdbelgium wrote:I think all 744s have this modification on one wing (or maybe even both?) which enables them to carry along another engine.

You're right. All 744 have these attachpoints on the left wing,......... but not all carriers (or a/c ??) are certified to fly with fifth pod.

If memory serves well, a 747 engine will fit on the maindeck of a 747 freighter, possible with external cowling removed.

Indeed, the engine fits the maindeck of the 747 as does the engine of the A380. The only thing removed during transport are the body parts that hide the mechanics when they are on the plane. In normal cases they get transported on a cradle, a socket with a damped moving sled to protect the engine. Most of the time covered by a special bag to protect it against the elements.

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