United Airlines orders 25 A350s & 25 787s

[MD-11forever]

UA announced today that it has split its long-expected order between Airbus and Boeing. It ordered 25 A350-900s and 25 787-8s, with future purchase rights for 50 of each aircraft. Good news for both Boeing and Airbus I guess.

Press release from United:
http://www.united.com/press/detail/0,7056,61384,00.html

[NCB]

Is Boeing mad?
How can they book 25 new B788 orders for 2016-2019 when they're not sure they can deliver the existing ones up until 2020. Considering that the 787 EIS'es early 2011ish, production rate will never achieve 10 per month until at least 2014... which means that opening up new slots is total madness.

Or wait...
Maybe they are anticipating some big cancellations (QR?, QF?), which means that there may be further delays to EIS, first flight? In that case it would make perfect sense to pull in UA.

Crossing my fingers for FF next week!

On another line, they ordered A359's, but no A350-1000's...
That is rather surprising and may mean that they're heading into a B748I/A388 contest to cover their B744 replacement.

[RoMax]

No NCB United said they will reduce the" big aircraft capacity". So they don't want new big airplanes, not imediatly maybe later.
Boeing said they will open more production lines so they can deliver more planes BEFORE 2020 than planned.

[teach]

Is Boeing mad?
How can they book 25 new B788 orders for 2016-2019 when they're not sure they can deliver the existing ones up until 2020. Considering that the 787 EIS'es early 2011ish, production rate will never achieve 10 per month until at least 2014... which means that opening up new slots is total madness.

It's six years down the road. I'd have been utterly shocked if Boeing, even with the revised schedule, hadn't kept a number of slots open on the production line for strategic customers. Manufacturers always do.

[NCB]

They still have 865 orders to deliver in 10 years.
This is best case scenario for deliveries:
2011: 20
2012: 40
2013: 60
2014: 100
2015: 120
2016: 120
2017: 120
2018: 120
2019: 120
Total between EIS and 2020: 820 -> 45 overbookings even in best case scenario

Best case scenario because the subcontractors won't be able to produce at full rate until 2013-2014 and that's also when the second final assembly line will be operational. Also personally, I do not believe that flight testing will be just a walk in the park and I bet that EIS will be delayed to late 2011 or early 2012.
Boeing will not open a 3rd assembly line. That would be excellent to meet demand but it will not happen due to limited subcontractor production capabilities/intentions.

I don't think that it's a matter of "important" customer, UA and Gulf Air are the last in the actual list to start getting any birds and most other orders come from other pretty important Boeing customers.

There simply are no slots. Don't forget that Boeing has also booked over 300 options that can be exercised for deliveries before 2020. You can't approve options unless you can produce them (even if not 100% of them)
There must be a lack of communication somewhere between departments, earlier in the program they were saying that the flight test campaign would only last 6 months... they realised that that was wrong but they maintained a crazy ramp-up schedule that they will never make. They would never have made it with only one assembly line, but even with 2 it's going to be very tough to achieve one every 3 days, simply because the suppliers have built their facilities to achieve that number and repeatedly expressed to have no interest to go beyond those numbers.

If Boeing is so happy to pay for delivery delays, it's ok with me

[RoMax]

Do you really think Boeing is that stuppid!!

[fretn]

Do you really think Boeing is that stuppid!!

yes they are, they have made critical errors in the past two years and lost custommers.

[RoMax]

Yes they made terrible mistakes BUT they don't going to sign contracts for deliveries before 2020 if they can't deliver a big part of them.

[teach]

They still have 865 orders to deliver in 10 years.

What makes you think every order currently on the books is planned to be delivered before 2020?

UA and Gulf Air are the last in the actual list to start getting any birds

Says who?

[RoMax]

The 787's of Biman Bangladesh are planned for delivery later than UA and Gulf Air altough they ordered befor UA and Gulf Air, why? Because Boeing has some free slots for big/important clients like UA and Gulf Air.

[regi]

Dear Mr Boeing, with full respect to the concerned people, but if you really believe that Biman will ever receive new airplanes from Boeing, you must believe in miracles.
Yes, they made a deal with Boeing.
It is the only airline company whose "purchase" was announced as "making a deal". The deal is covered by the Exim bank. But what if Bangladesh will not fulfill its commitments? As they have never done by the way.

10 years ago, at the beginning of internet messages about Biman, it was announced already that they would get new airplanes, or at least modern. Reality is that they still fly the DC-10.

At a certain moment you could even fill in the tender for airplanes, announced on their website.
Suddenly it was announced that Biman would get (!) B777. But when Boeing came up with its modern 787, well, Biman decided that they would go for the 787.
The problem is that they have nothing to decide about. "Money no have"

Euro Atlantic would lease them a B777 to be supplied in this month. Well...where is it? Lost in the Ganghes-Triangle ?
The only thing they can get are some very old B747 from Orient Thai to perform Hadj flights.

The sad thing is that the very large expat Bengali customers are the victims. A decent connection between the UK and Dhaka should be profitable. But the interference by high ranking Bengali people is so masochistic that it just won't work. On the positive side is that the last years Bangladesh has improved its status from the most corrupt state to a bit less corrupt ( they are ranked 139th on 180 states, including many non-states such as Somalia, Afghanistan, some Congo's and the central African Republic. ) http://www.transparency.org/policy_rese ... 2009_table

Let us be serious: if we see which efforts SNBA has to do to stay alive, how on earth would it be possible that Biman would change in 1 day from a Stone Age airline to a modern company? First see, than believe.

[regi]

If you want a laugh read this:
http://www.airlinequality.com/Forum/biman.htm

[NCB]

Nice link Regi.

Yes they made terrible mistakes BUT they don't going to sign contracts for deliveries before 2020 if they can't deliver a big part of them.

Actually, the hilarious thing is that over 5 years into the program, the next 3 weeks may decide the fate of the B787 program and that of Boeing Commercial.
Any further delay or failure to fly by year-end and QF, QR, VS, etc... and even NH will seek compensation AND cancellation, resulting in the loss of half the backlog.
If half the backlog goes before flight testing begins, Boeing may get so tight on the finances that it could put Boeing Commercial's future in doubt.

Boeing can't afford another delay!

[teach]

Euro Atlantic would lease them a B777 to be supplied in this month. Well...where is it? Lost in the Ganghes-Triangle ?

Already retired by Singapore Airlines (9V-SRA), painted white awaiting delivery to Biman, which is expected before Christmas. Two more due to arrive, all this winter.

But whether or not Biman is a reliable airline is not the issue here, the issue is that Boeing most certainly keeps slots open on the production line for some time to lure strategic customers. Airbus does the same.

[RoMax]

And where are the flights to JFK via BRU of Biman?

[PYX]

Boeing will deliver more than twenty 787s during the first year. So far they have built two static test frames and six aircraft to be used for the certification program and final assembly has already began on number 14, which will be the 6th one to be delivered. At the current rate they will have at least 20 sitting on the tarmac waiting to be delivered by the time the aircraft is certified (not counting the 6 aircraft used for certification).

[smokejumper]

Maybe you've seen this but here it is again - You Tube Video: United Breaks Guitars".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YGc4zOqozo

[regi]

Thank you for the Youtube clip. One of the very few I watched till the end.

Just change some words into

• Alitalia
  Delsey suitcases
  Rome to Brussels

and the same song can be applied to the old Alitalia as well about my own experiences with Alitalia.

By the way:
reading the remarks about this youtube movie, one is from such a ground crew creature. He really thinks he is right. Unbelievable. The FBI / Home Land Security / FEMA should launch a nation wide search for him because he is a tread to (inter)national security and a supporter of terrorism. ( which includes actively mishandling passengers luggage )