5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

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NCB

Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by NCB »

134, do read my post before you comment.
I can not reply to you because you are commenting on things that I didn't write but that you assumed that I wrote.
As an example, you are stating that SN need to put the same J seats as on the A330's and not J seats like Virgin America. That proves that you have not read the post in full because that's exactly what I wrote... :roll:

Further you lie, because I did react to Tulip's last comment that was itself the same comment he made 10 days ago and to which I responded with the same reply... no wonder that you are assuming that I'm turning in circles but actually he is.

I can not respond to such comments all the time, so I have to cherry-pick only interesting arguments.

You have commented on A319 luggage volume. That's interesting, let's see:

The A319 can carry 4 LD3-46 containers with 3.5 cubic meter each, or a total of 14 cubic meter.
Let's consider that only 80% of that volume can be used due to solid shape of luggage and resulting empty spaces. That makes 11 cubic meter usable.
Standard luggage 0.8 meter x 0.6 meter x 0.2 meter = 0.096 cubic meter or 114 luggage for 11 cu.meter.
That is 1 luggage per pax + 2 luggage per pax in J for a 108 Pax configuration.

BUT: on top of the 4 x LD3-46, the A319 can carry 7.22 cubic meter of bulk cargo.
Therefore there is enough room for people who need to carry a second luggage because not all will carry 2 luggage and flights do not consistently operate at 100% load factors.
Luggage that does not fit into that volume can be sent with the next flight but it will only be in rare circumstances and it does not at all justify not starting such an operation.
For the example you gave of 19 bags for 5 passengers, it only means that there is 9 bags over the allowed amount, so you only have to hope that the flight is not full or that sufficient pax have only checked one or no bags at all.

Either way, this is an exception because not everyone has 4 arms and 4 legs to carry 4 luggage each, that maybe brought up a few hundred euro of additional revenues.

So what is your point?
The fact that these few hundred euros of additional revenues, or the mere fact that on less than 5% of such flights, less than 5% of the pax ( which brings us down to 5% of 5% or less than 0.25%) may have to come back to the airport at a later date to claim their luggage, is more important than actually serving routes that are not being served today?

Similarily, you mention cargo here and cargo there.
Carrying cargo is so important that starting 25 NEW ROUTES to Africa (particularily routes not operated by A330 because SN can not add enough of them) with A319 and capacity to Africa by more than 150% does not make sense...
Some electrical impulses are jumping 2 or 3 unconnected neurons, I believe.

READ IT WELL BEFORE REPLYING in order to keep this thread at a good level.
Totally agree. But then, wouldn't it be normal, justified, logic and honnest to wait with conclusions like "SN is a cash-stripped airline
Cash-stripped and cash-strapped have totally different meanings, maybe that's why you are feeling offensed.

Cash stripped can refer to the fact that it's been stripped of its money and has none left, but cash-strapped which is a common term, usually refers to the fact that someone is living on a tight budget and needs to be very careful with investments... which is the case of SN.
I have basic knowledge of accounting and investments, you don't need to be a doctor in finances to analyse balance sheets, equity and revenue.

SN was established for the reasons you mention. Good, that was 7 years ago, and frankly that isn't a good reason to justify SN's passive expansion to Africa.

SN needs a strong masterplan for 2010-2020.
Fortunately the crisis kept U2 (Easyjet) out of BRU (hence delays in LCC terminal??), but once traffic goes up again, SN will have to fight this rather strong threat as well as rising competition in Africa.
Being cash-strapped is one thing, but the last thing to do is to remain passive and to wait for the sky to fall on your head. Star Alliance will help, but not enough to keep these threats from eating SN away.

134flyer
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Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by 134flyer »

NCB wrote:134, do read my post before you comment.
I do read your posts, but they are so full of contradictions that it's hard to keep track... As such, it is impossible to correctly reply to your posts, as the replier will always 'be wrong' in your eyes and making it very convenient for you to jump all over him and once again, IGNORING ALL THE OTHER ARGUMENTS!!
NCB wrote:Further you lie, because I did react to Tulip's last comment that was itself the same comment he made 10 days ago and to which I responded with the same reply... no wonder that you are assuming that I'm turning in circles but actually he is.
:roll: You only reply to the technical aspects, NOT the operational aspects!!!!
NCB wrote:I can not respond to such comments all the time, so I have to cherry-pick only interesting arguments.
First, who do you think you are, some God or so? Second, and once again, it's very convenient that you don't pick the arguments which totally trash your Grandiose Plan :roll:

NCB wrote: READ IT WELL BEFORE REPLYING in order to keep this thread at a good level.
:lol: That's a good one coming from you :lol:

134flyer
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Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by 134flyer »

First I din't want to respond to the following, but it's too funny that it's hard not to:
NCB wrote:Carrying cargo is so important that starting 25 NEW ROUTES to Africa (particularily routes not operated by A330 because SN can not add enough of them) with A319 and capacity to Africa by more than 150% does not make sense...
Who'se electrical impulses are jumping 2 or 3 unconnected neurons here NCB?? :roll:

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tolipanebas
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Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by tolipanebas »

134flyer wrote:You only reply to the technical aspects, NOT the operational aspects!!!!
To discuss operational aspects, you first need real world experience, something which NCB is obviously not flushed with to say the least.... :roll: BTW, I wouldn't even say he has seriously tackled any of the technical aspects, other than by making a few purely theoretical calculations, based on what has since been shown as ridiculously overly optimistic performance data for both the A319 as well as the A330....

I'll limit myself to this single one operational issue this time, which is easy to understand for all and so I ask it again: I'd really love to see NCB's detailed solution to the stowage problem for catering when deploying A319s on long haul routes as previously explained. At SN, we had the 'pleasure' of being faced with this problem in real several times and allow me to say it was an operational mess! What's your magic solution? Because whatever you've obviously worked out to cope with it, you're planning on doing this on a daily basis remember, so it must obviously be easy to do (and thus also to explain). In full detail please, if you can? 8-)

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Vinnie-Winnie
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Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by Vinnie-Winnie »

tolipanebas wrote:
134flyer wrote:You only reply to the technical aspects, NOT the operational aspects!!!!
To discuss operational aspects, you first need real world experience, something which NCB is obviously not flushed with to say the least.... :roll: BTW, I wouldn't even say he has seriously tackled any of the technical aspects, other than by making a few purely theoretical calculations, based on what has since been shown as ridiculously overly optimistic performance data for both the A319 as well as the A330....

I'll limit myself to this single one operational issue this time, which is easy to understand for all and so I ask it again: I'd really love to see NCB's detailed solution to the stowage problem for catering when deploying A319s on long haul routes as previously explained. At SN, we had the 'pleasure' of being faced with this problem in real several times and allow me to say it was an operational mess! What's your magic solution? Because whatever you've obviously worked out to cope with it, you're planning on doing this on a daily basis remember, so it must obviously be easy to do (and thus also to explain). In full detail please, if you can? 8-)
No food ;)

134flyer
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Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by 134flyer »

tolipanebas wrote:
134flyer wrote:You only reply to the technical aspects, NOT the operational aspects!!!!
To discuss operational aspects, you first need real world experience, something which NCB is obviously not flushed with to say the least.... :roll: BTW, I wouldn't even say he has seriously tackled any of the technical aspects, other than by making a few purely theoretical calculations, based on what has since been shown as ridiculously overly optimistic performance data for both the A319 as well as the A330....

I'll limit myself to this single one operational issue this time, which is easy to understand for all and so I ask it again: I'd really love to see NCB's detailed solution to the stowage problem for catering when deploying A319s on long haul routes as previously explained. At SN, we had the 'pleasure' of being faced with this problem in real several times and allow me to say it was an operational mess! What's your magic solution? Because whatever you've obviously worked out to cope with it, you're planning on doing this on a daily basis remember, so it must obviously be easy to do (and thus also to explain). In full detail please, if you can? 8-)
Well, it's getting a bit tiresome to reply to NCB's posts/arguments, but with NCB only replying to technical aspects, I meant replies like this:
NCB wrote:You have commented on A319 luggage volume. That's interesting, let's see:

The A319 can carry 4 LD3-46 containers with 3.5 cubic meter each, or a total of 14 cubic meter.
Let's consider that only 80% of that volume can be used due to solid shape of luggage and resulting empty spaces. That makes 11 cubic meter usable.
Standard luggage 0.8 meter x 0.6 meter x 0.2 meter = 0.096 cubic meter or 114 luggage for 11 cu.meter.
That is 1 luggage per pax + 2 luggage per pax in J for a 108 Pax configuration.

BUT: on top of the 4 x LD3-46, the A319 can carry 7.22 cubic meter of bulk cargo.
Therefore there is enough room for people who need to carry a second luggage because not all will carry 2 luggage and flights do not consistently operate at 100% load factors.
Luggage that does not fit into that volume can be sent with the next flight but it will only be in rare circumstances and it does not at all justify not starting such an operation.
For the example you gave of 19 bags for 5 passengers, it only means that there is 9 bags over the allowed amount, so you only have to hope that the flight is not full or that sufficient pax have only checked one or no bags at all.


A lot of technical blabla which theoretically might be correct, but only focusing on one part of a technical aspect: luggage and (compared to the A330) limited cargo and not looking at the whole picture; e.g. what about, like you rightly point out tolipanebas, catering stowage? Not to speak about how this all fits-in in the total operational situation...

NCB

Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by NCB »

At SN, we had the 'pleasure' of being faced with this problem in real several times and allow me to say it was an operational mess! What's your magic solution? Because whatever you've obviously worked out to cope with it, you're planning on doing this on a daily basis remember, so it must obviously be easy to do (and thus also to explain). In full detail please, if you can?
Is that what's going to stop you from operating Africa with A319?
The problem of catering in Africa is no harder to tackle for a narrowbody with 108 seats than for a widebody with 260 seats. If airlines had to be afraid of such small problems all the time, there would be none flying.
Airlines carry catering in the cargo hold when it doesn't fit in the galleys.

But if SN sets up a large A319 operation in Western Africa, there is alot easier and better. You build a small catering facility in a central position and you deliver catering to the flights using 2 small turboprops like Bae Jetstreams or Saab 340's, flying to different directions and deliver catering by doing several stops each. It's worth doing it for 1500 meals per day (+30% for meal choice) or over half a million meals per year.
Even better would be the fact that they would be able to disserve some of the A333's as well and sell catering to other airlines including local-based airlines, partially covering for the cost of such an operation. Lower labour cost resulting in lower catering cost and added payload capacity for flights to/from Europe would further cover the cost of the operation.
Cost of setting-up such a catering operation? 3 or 4 million euro's by my estimate, peanuts for an airline.
Since LH is building a base in Abuja, including LH Technik facilities, why not also a LSG Skychef division?
BA has a small facility in LOS.
But even better would be Bamako in Mali or somewhere in that area due to its central position for A319 operations.

For the rest, on 6.5-7 hours flights you don't need to serve 2 full meals. A meal and a snack is sufficient.

As a sidenote, I discovered that LSG Sky Chefs has 3 operations in South Africa including JNB...

As for your personal attacks, be ashamed of yourself.

ballisticz
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Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by ballisticz »

Hi,

was rather thinking to stop commenting on the A319 topic ... but simply cannot to be frank.
NCB, sorry again but we go once more in full and plain theory whereas flights to/from AFI do rather put you in front of reality.

1. SN A319's are not fitted with ULD's anymore (whereas it was the case for Sabena)
I know you did not say there were AKH-equipped but merely want to inform you since you partly take data pertaining to LD3's. It is all bulk load by now.

2.Truly, if you're not or have not been involved in the airline business as such, good job coz at least you know lots of things but all very theoretically yet again. You speak about the volume in bulk.
The data you provide is correct BUT have you ever seen a bulk on an A319 ??? Dude, you bearly load 10 bags in there next to the material already present and seen the physical shape - under the tail - of the bulk.
Trust me I've seen it plenty of time.

3. To give you an accurate idea of the bags load, you can expect around 110 bags for 50 pax in low season.
Whereas you can load roughly 50 bags in the forward hold and 60 in the back taking into account the African volumes. So you'd better keep your bulk fully free of anything for the handbags you will likely collect at the gate. ALL THIS WITH A 50 PAX LOAD. 5-0 pax I repeat just in case.

4. Beside leaving a few dozens of bags behind (next flight right ?) you obviously still dont carry 100 grams of cargo. Not needed you will tell me I know ;)

Yesterday I already provided you with some basic loadsheet calculations and as you've seen next to volume -today- there was also a real issue in terms of weight, fuel tanks capacity and MTOW. Ok, new A319's have higher MTOW and can also have higher fuel tanks. But still trust me that might only work ops-wise and profitability wise on A319 ER e.g in full c-class config on SUPER high yield destinations with a network beyond your hub that perfectly fits the expectations of your high yield pax on board. SN has none of destinations, nor will have soon (mostly oil markets which are a LH priority). But oEVEN without this there are so many other issues you might not even have thought about. It's not about being mean to you ... that's plain truth.

The way you retrieved data was pretty nice if you do not belong to an airline as staff member.
It made sense ... but sadly it wa only for a brief moment and on paper.
In case you would work for an airline, I hope you do not belong to the network, ground ops or commercial department or then under strict supervision only lol 8-)
No hard feelings dude.


Good nite

ballisticz
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Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by ballisticz »

NCB,

now just tell us the truth :

a. you're on hard drugs
b. you want to become the new Ben Stiller amongst the aviation's fans community.

Sorry for becoming a bit nasty but sky is indeed the limit for you ...
Building a catering facility (small investment of 3/4.000.000 EUR) and flying the catering by Saab or Bae.
Yo ... you never get some rest you ...
Do you realize what you wrote ?
In how many years do you plan to recover from such an investment ?
Pilots costs, a/c operating costs and maintenance (easy to maintain a Saab / Bae in AFI) ...
How many trolleys are you going to load vertically in a Saab/Bae cabin or holds ?
What when your aircrafts go u/s or suffer delays ...
I don't go further it just become ridiculous now ...

Cheers to all,

Balisticz

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sn26567
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Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by sn26567 »

Gentlemen, please, could you please refrain from personal attacks?

This thread has for long been a discussion (an interesting one, I must say) between civilised persons. Let's keep it that way. Else I will be compelled to archive this thread.

Thanks to all.
André
ex Sabena #26567

Duke
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Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by Duke »

I suggest the moderator to close this topic, and to start two new topics :
- one with real news about the search for a fifth A330 for Brussels Airlines,
- one with the discussion going on about the sense of deploying A319's on the African network.

I'm not interested in the second one, and certainly not in the way the conversations develop...
I'm all the more interested in the first one however, and I'd like to get real info when I see a new posting in the thread...

Regards,

Duke

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Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by kiwiandrew »

Duke wrote:I suggest the moderator to close this topic, and to start two new topics :
- one with real news about the search for a fifth A330 for Brussels Airlines,
- one with the discussion going on about the sense of deploying A319's on the African network.

I'm not interested in the second one, and certainly not in the way the conversations develop...
I'm all the more interested in the first one however, and I'd like to get real info when I see a new posting in the thread...

Regards,

Duke

I would like to second that suggestion - this thread seems to be going in two completely different directions . I am interested in following the serious part of the thread and getting rather bored with the hijacking of the topic by somebody who wants to discuss something else . A separate thread on that other topic seems an ideal solution .

LX-LGX
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Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by LX-LGX »

kiwiandrew wrote: I would like to second that suggestion - this thread seems to be going in two completely different directions . I am interested in following the serious part of the thread and getting rather bored with the hijacking of the topic by somebody who wants to discuss something else . A separate thread on that other topic seems an ideal solution .
kiwiandrew, I disagree.

1. There is no breaking news about a new A333 nowadays

2. Some posts are actually quite funny, and humour is very important in life, specially because it's not going that well in avation, travel and tourism lately. So let's laugh a bit. With the content of the posts, not with the poster of course.

3. The replies are always excellent, lots of useful information.

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Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by teddybAIR »

LX-LGX...lot's of usefull information indeed, but unfortunately 80% is off-topic. Now, to get things back on track: where would one find out which A330's become available for leasing within a year? After all, the press release of brussels airlines mentionned that they are looking for an A330, right?

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tolipanebas
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Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by tolipanebas »

NCB wrote: Is that what's going to stop you from operating Africa with A319?
It is merely the most easily to understand of the many weak spots in your 'plan', so I've singled it out for everybody to understand how crazy your idea is...
NCB wrote: The problem of catering in Africa is no harder to tackle for a narrowbody with 108 seats than for a widebody with 260 seats.
Yes it is, because on a widebody, you actually have dedicated galleys reserved to stow multiple food and beverage services, whereas on narrowbodies, you don't!
To make it easy to understand for all: on a narrow body, roughly you have room for one to two trays per pax, on a widebody you have room for at least 6 trays....
Believe me: if you're going to places where you can not get any catering uplift for your return flight, you'll have no choice but to take your catering with you.
NCB wrote:If airlines had to be afraid of such small problems all the time, there would be none flying.
Airlines carry catering in the cargo hold when it doesn't fit in the galleys.
Small problems? These are called OPERATIONAL problems, and they are the most important game stopper most of the times. Besides, what airlines stow their catering bellow deck in the bulk holds on a regular basis, I'd like to know? Charter airlines, serving just sandwiches and coke, I bet?
I'd love to see just how you are going to store a full long haul meal service for 100+ pax in the belley of an A319 and how you think to get it loaded upstairs during the turn around. Remember: no catering facilities actually also means no trucks to move it upstairs. I suppose you're just going to offload everything on the tarmac and then carry it one by one via the stairs straight from there? ROTFL...
Turn around of 3 hours, anybody? :roll:
Not to mention the superb hygienic conditions of it all, under the tropical and moist conditions of Africa!
Oh, and how much hold volume do you loose by carrying the catering downstairs, you think? Any guesses? (or is'nt google helping you out with that?) Any idea how much of your volume you'll still have left for luggage?
Or are only the business pax going to be allowed to check in a single suitcase, with the rest having to revert to DHL or FedEx to get their luggage to their destination? After a few weeks, you'll be flying empty planes to your destinations, in which case you're obviously not going to have troubles making it there non-stop! :mrgreen:
What about combining food with some sorts of luggage? Do you think it is allowed to store catering in the same hold as a pet? Sadly not. Which is it you're going to leave behind? Whatever it is, it's going to be another discomfort to your pax, but hey, who cares right...
Oh, and what about tax free goods? You probably won't believe it, but SN sells for several tens of thousands of euro worth of tax free goods on each long flight (yep, African pax are big spenders), so you better have a good load of tax free goods stowed downstairs for the flight back... And another 10 or so porters to carry it upstairs... and another hour or so to let them do... only to find out half the watches and perfumes will have disappeared somewhere between the tarmac and the aircraft....
Oh, and correction to the previous then: to allow for the lucrative tax free goods to be taken onboard, even the business pax won't be allowed to check in any bags... But hey, FR is trying to convince their European pax to travel without luggage, soSN could do the same with their African pax?
Good show!
NCB wrote: But if SN sets up a large A319 operation in Western Africa, there is alot easier and better. You build a small catering facility in a central position and you deliver catering to the flights using 2 small turboprops like Bae Jetstreams or Saab 340's, flying to different directions and deliver catering by doing several stops each. It's worth doing it for 1500 meals per day (+30% for meal choice) or over half a million meals per year.
Sure...
With a bell on the nose, so they can sound it when nearing the airport... SOUP... SOUP... SOUP...
ROTFL
NCB wrote: Cost of setting-up such a catering operation? 3 or 4 million euro's by my estimate, peanuts for an airline.
Since LH is building a base in Abuja, including LH Technik facilities, why not also a LSG Skychef division?
BA has a small facility in LOS.
But even better would be Bamako in Mali or somewhere in that area due to its central position for A319 operations.
FWIW, SN actually has self-handling facilities as well, namely at FIH and I can assure you they cost a lot more to built and operate than what you guessed.
Besides, I thought your idea about deploying some A319s was about having a cheaper and swift alternative to leasing A330s? Spending several millions on building and hundreds of thousand of euro annually on running self-handling facilities isn't exactly my idea of something like that....
NCB wrote: For the rest, on 6.5-7 hours flights you don't need to serve 2 full meals. A meal and a snack is sufficient.
If you say so.
If I remember correctly, only some replies ago, you were bitching about SN not being competitive due to their lack of PTVs in economy (which is rather unimportant BTW, as demonstrated by LH which has started installing them in their Y class only recently... not on Africa, but on North America and Asia!), yet now you'd tell me pax leaving BRU around noon they will only have one meal? for a whole day?? Even in business?? :roll:
You really ARe thinking of copying FR, are you?
NCB wrote: As a sidenote, I discovered that LSG Sky Chefs has 3 operations in South Africa including JNB...
Wow, google is really great, isn't it? ;-)

Sadly, those jetstreams of yours don't have enough range to make if from JNB to FNA, I fear.... or do they according to your own calculations? :mrgreen:

teddybAIR
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Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by teddybAIR »

That's it...may I kindly and friendly as ever suggest to continue the discussion on whether or not the A319 is an appropriat plane for long haul operations in the following thread?

No offense!
bAIR

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sn26567
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Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by sn26567 »

Duke wrote:I suggest the moderator to close this topic, and to start two new topics :
- one with real news about the search for a fifth A330 for Brussels Airlines,
- one with the discussion going on about the sense of deploying A319's on the African network.
Well, it's difficult to implement. I would like this thread to continue on the 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines and to start a new thread about the possibility to operate A319s and other narrow bodies to Africa.

It is difficult to split the existing thread because often the two subjecys are mingled.

Therefore let's do like this: this thread goes on, exclusively with A330 news. A new thread created by teddybAIR will discuss the narrow bodies to Africa. OK?
André
ex Sabena #26567

Duke
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Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by Duke »

sn26567 wrote:
Therefore let's do like this: this thread goes on, exclusively with A330 news. A new thread created by teddybAIR will discuss the narrow bodies. OK?
OK for me!!

HighInTheSky
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Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by HighInTheSky »

It surprises me that everyone is only talking about the African airline, but nobody said anything about the now confirmed 5th A330-300 :)

This is news that SN is willing to share... Not quite the same story with the other 'hot topic' ;)

As I said in a previous topic, a/c will come from Asian carrier...

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RoMax
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Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by RoMax »

Indeed in their "fresh" press release you can find that they approved their 5 A330. Later information about routes will follow. I suppose they wait for the routes because of AF, when AF don't know where they will fly they can't defend theirself at time.

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