Sabena or not...

[b-west]

Ok, this might be beating a dead horse, but still. This subject has been touched upon in various threads thus far. But I don't think it has had a separate thread, which it, according to me, deserves. So, here goes:

Sabena... should the name be revived or not?

I'll open the discussion with a few points:

First and foremost: the name is still very well known around the world.

A few examples: I remember traveling to NY with AA, codeshared with SN Brussels Airlines. The airport monitors at JFK showed "flight in codeshare with Sabena". A few weeks ago a screenshot on this site showed that Bremen airport announced a new Brussels Airlines flight as operated by Sabena. At the airport, foreigners constantly come up to me asking where they can find the Sabena desks. Even last night, during the popular quiz "de slimste mens", one of the candidates replied "Sabena", when a SN Brussels Airlines plane was shown and he had to guess the company name. (he also said Swissair iso Swiss...)

So, in stead of spending massive sums of money on brand awareness, it might be a good idea to just bring back the old name.

2: company reputation... now here's a dodgy one. Throughout Sabena's extensive Africa network, the company was pretty well respected. But in Europe, the brand was somewhat less popular. Even though Sabena worked hard to improve its reputation during its last years of operations, they still suffered from the stigma they had being branded an incompetent government organisation. Still, I don't believe the negative stigma is that big as some would claim. Every airline has its enemies. You can try as hard as you want, some passengers will suffer from a bad experience and will not hesitate to publicise their discontent, while satisfied customers won't be so "vocal" in expressing their opinion. But at the core, I think that the Sabena brand is still a strong one, with lasting appeal.

3: legal complications: the brand name is, as far as I know, still owned by the defunct Sabena NV, so a financial agreement should be reached with the company's liquidators.

Ultimately, the decision now rests with Lufthansa. In the case of Swiss, they left everything as it was. But then, Swiss or Swissair, it doesn't really make much difference, and most people probably still use the old name. The change in livery was also very small.

[Bralo20]

Strangely I had the same discussion yesterday with someone. The Sabena brand is still allive today, 7 years after the company went bankrupt. A lot of people are still talking about Sabena or SN when they talk about Bru.Air...

Unfortunately the only thing that still reminds to SABENA is the IATA code for Brussels Airlines "SN"... Even the callsign "s-tail" has been changed to "bee-line" (beeeheeeeee liiiiine, it could be the callsign of a airline full of sheeps? )

I would love to see the SABENA brand with the lovely S-tail fly again through the skies and I think that a lot of people would like to see this happen again, however I doubt if this ever will happen again...

Maybe when the SABENA brand will go for sale within x number of years someone will buy the brand and start an airline with the famous brand? I doubt it will happen but we definately can dream about it

[HighInTheSky]

As you said, the name is still very alive. In outstations the crewbus drivers who bring us to the hotel regulary have signs with Sabena written on it. Also passengers quite often ask where to find the Sabena desk. Especially in Africa the name is still used.
An other example, the airport building 26, now called B-House, how many still say Sabenahouse? I know i do...

Now this said, i really would like to see the name Sabena to be used again, but i'm afraid it will never happen. I think they want to take distance from the old Sabena that was owned by the government and had enormous management problems.
If they would pay the price to use the name Sabena there would be no legal problem at all. Names can be used again after 5 years if i recall correctly.

Anyway, i didn't hear anything yet to suggest that they were thinking about changing the name again.

[Megaman]

I would love for the Sabena name to be used again and see those birds fly. Especially the Magritte birds on the wingtips!!! It would certainly be my preferred carrier.

[b720]

I agree with all of above.. would be lovely to see the brand used again.. It is definitely better than brussels airlines.. or SN or ..and true it is still a big name in Africa, and not surprisingly so as for many in Africa the sabena bird was the only one to fly to an airpoert next to them, and that for many decades.. for many it was the first airplane they ever saw.... and still is the case at some destinations.. where SN is still the only non african carrier linking that destination to the world.. as Africa is the bread an butter of the airline, and the basis for any further expansion, i guess that SABENA should be at least considered.. they can add in little italics "flying with lufthansa" this way the dubious government ownership connection could be minimized or erased..

[Air Key West]

Well, renaming b.air Sabena by adding "flying with Lufhtansa" reminds me of what happened when SR took over SN : Sabena added on its livery "flying together with Swissair". The SN/SR partnership does not recall fond memories. However, I also think sabena is still a much better brand than brussels airlines and in another thread here I suggested that LH, when they take full control of SN, and in spite of present commitments not to change the name, they should seriously consider rebranding brussels airlines into "sabena by lufthansa". But this idea was not welcomed with enthusiasm in the other thread. But if LH wants to develop SN in Africa, sabena, there, is still today a much stronger brand.

[Conti764]

I would change the name to Sabena again, if that's legally possible. No matter how you look at this, it still is a stronger brand globally then Brussels Airlines. Sure, most people will still remind Sabena has gone defunct, and in Europe the company didn't have an all to good reputation, but given some time and an ongoing decent service, people will slightly forget this reputation.

And in Africa, Sabena is still a very strong brand of world class and Africa is still the main market for SN. In my opinion, the Brussels Airlines livery, more specific the 'dotted B' looks like a low cost livery, while the SN eurowhite with the S-tail livery was classy.

This livery also matches Lufthansa's quite well. Some people don't like this kind of scheme, but I personally find the eurowhite livery (Lufthansa, Air France,...) amongst the best looking and classy liveries around.

[brussels airlines]

Why loosing so much money again on advertising, brand positioning, etc. ?

First of all, the current Brussels Airlines and even SN Brussels Airlines are totaly different airlines with different strategies then Sabena.

For over 6 years now, people are working to cut the band with Sabena and to positionate the new name.

Sabena is indeed a big name in Belgium and in Africa. But when you ask a Belgian what they think or know about Sabena, they say: banckrupt, strikes, lost my bags, inconvenience,... There are not many people who still think about the great old time with our big national flag carrier, except aviation lovers of course.

Also it would be a strange sign to the ex-employees of Sabena. The ex-Sabeniens who are now working at Brussels Airlines, all agree: it will never be the same as in the time of Sabena. Brussels Airlines is totally fifferent working, internal and external.
And all the ex-Sabeniens who aren't working anymore in aviation would be angry, I think.

Brussels Airlines is maybe not the most creative or the most beautiful name, it's a good name. The new logo is getting more and more known in Belgium and aviation in general. It would be stupid to restart all over again.

[flightlover]

Just to say, the zoo on brussels airport (live animal center) is still being called sabena although it is situated at the flightcare wharehouse.

Its just a way of thinking, and rebranding brussels airlines into Sabena will not cost that much as the name is well known. And maybe at the same time they could get rid of the B-flex, -economy setting.

They could start over again as a brand new airline with an already well known name.

[brussels airlines]

Doesn't cost much ?

You know how much it costed to:
-create a new logo
-new uniforms for more then 2000 employees
-new paintsheme
-all the new things at Brussels Airport (ticket desk, sunrise lounge, check-in, etc.)
-new website, papers,
-change again everything at the airports in other countries

We're talking about some millions. With the current high oil prices and economic crise, we even don't repaint the entire fleet in the complete new livery, but hust the tailsection.

If we wanted Sabena back, we should have done it 2 years ago. A study cleary marked that Sabena wasn't the good name for a 'brand new airline'. We even studied to keep the name 'Virgin'. Just forget about Sabena, it will never return.

[an-148]

. Just forget about Sabena, it will never return.

not soooooooo sure .......

just remember Lufhansa wants the airline to focuse more and more on Africa: what brand is the only one really known in Africa (and, as I can read hereabove: in the US, or in Bremen, or.........)

and as far as now, we've seen that Lufthansa made almost always the good choices......... so, I wouldn't be surprised at all of that move to rebrand the company with the only name that is known everywhere when it comes to name the Belgian flagcarrier !

[Conti764]

Brussels Airlines is maybe not the most creative or the most beautiful name, it's a good name. The new logo is getting more and more known in Belgium and aviation in general. It would be stupid to restart all over again.

Really? Brussels Airlines, but definitely the B-tail makes me think of a low cost carrier, actually. Not an airline with the grandeur Sabena once had.

And as I said before. Maybe Sabena doesn't have a good reputation with everybody, but people will forget the mess of the last SN years once the name would be up in the air again and the company would give them a high service.

In the US there are plenty of examples of companies who went bankrupt and got up again with the same name. Continental went bankrupt twice and once was known as one of the worst US airlines, now it's a solid company which is one of the best US airlines to fly with.

Maybe you are right about one thing, the price of a massive rebranding. But if Lufthansa sees it the same way money wouldn't be an item anymore.

[brussels airlines]

Well they are partly lowcost, you know. My personal opinion is that the logo looks modern, fresh and young, exatly what the company wants. But hey, that's my opinion ofcourse.

Now, the agreement between SN Airholding and Lufthansa clearly stated that the name and brand of Brussels Airlines will not dissapear. Ofcourse, if everything goes smooth, in 2011 Lufthansa gets 100% of Brussels Airlines. Then, they can do what they want with Brussels Airlines. But in 2011, we are using the name (SN) Brussels Airlines for almost 10 years. Would it be strategic to change the name again after 10 years when everybody tries to cut the link with it's bankrupt ancestor ?

[itami]

I agree with the majority of postings in this topic : 'SABENA' should come back, and as soon as possible.
Now that SN is preparing for the *A membership it might be the last good chance to get rid of the ‘Virgin low cost profile’ on all levels, including the actual ‘pizza boy livery’ of its aircraft.
No livery can match the ‘high class’ one from Sabena (Conti764 posted a nice example in this topic). Most people underestimate the uniqueness of the ‘female’ and ‘sunny’ sounding name 'SABENA' : with its nicely spread 3 vowels and due lack of 'R' and 'L' the (now 85 years old !) name can be easily pronounced and remembered in almost any language !

[Air Key West]

To b-west : you knew your new thread would create a heated debate, wouldn't you ? Good, this forum needed it.
To "brussels airlines" : liveries are to some extent a question of taste. As we say in French : "des goûts et des couleurs..." or different people have different tastes. You are entitled to think the new b.air livery is modern, fresh and young, just as I am entitled to think the new logo/livery looks as young and fresh as b.air's aircraft do.
You mention the cost of :
- creating a new logo/livery : there is no need to create a new logo or livery, but the rights to use the sabena ones come indeed with a price tag (btw, my favorite sabena livery is the one from the '60ies ; opting for that one would mean going totally "retro" - Lufthansa and a number of airlines have painted one of their aircraft in retro style - I know this won't happen, ok ?)
- new uniforms : uniforms don't last forever, you have to buy new ones at a given time ; just take over the LH uniforms with a sabena pin on it if you want to save money ;
- new paintscheme : yes, indeed, or only when the new aircraft come in (there will be a fleet renewal at some point, no ?)
- all the things done at BRU Airport: well, b.air will have to join the Star Alliance "crowd" at BRU, or ???
- new web site : well, hasn't the web site just been changed (it's a disaster), so there was money for a stupid make over of the web site....
Brand positioning : imho, b.air has failed to impose its brand.
You also mention that for many people sabena means lost luggage, strikes etc... I can tell you nearly ALL airlines have lost my luggage (AF-KL have been very good at it), and practically all airlines have been faced with strikes. So, that's not typically sabena...
Then you go on saying all of this is too expensive namely because of the high price of oil. Have you read a newspaper lately ? A barrel of oil today costs about 38 dollars (down from 147 last summer). 38 DOLLARS not euros.
And the study done a couple of years ago (probably by expensive consultants who were not considered too expensive) apparently indicated sabena was a bad choice. It also came up with the magic b.flex/b.light formula which was supposed (according to the same study probably) to make European flights profitable. This study was wrong on all points. European operations still aren't profitable and it looks like a joke when you think that four aircraft are keeping 47 other aircraft flying.
I don't think anybody here is asking to bring back daddy's or grand-daddy's sabena. What we are saying is that sabena is still a stronger brand than brussels airlines whether you like it or not.
My suggestion "sabena by lufthansa" has not sparked a lot of enthusiasm, but I'll explain it : you opt for the brand "sabena" because it's still well known (and even very well known in Africa, SN's most important market), you add "by lufthansa" to get the message through that it's not daddy's sabena, but a new sabena run by an efficient, no nonsense and reliable airline.

[Prevangor]

Just to give you one more example for the Sabena brand recognition. Today the "Neue Osnabrücker Zeitung" wrote: "Nachdem der Lufthansa die Übernahme der früheren Sabena sowie der Austrian Airlines gelungen ist...". They do not even mention the B-name, because it is relatively unknown. They just call the company "former Sabena" - so everybody knows what they mean.


Go Sabena, go!

[zteven]

Sabena was something special. Brussels Airlines isn't, in my eyes.
Looks like a lowcost carrier with that paint scheme, in my eyes.

I would love to see Sabena return!

Greetz



Steven

[HighInTheSky]

Well they are partly lowcost, you know.

That is a part of Brussels Airlines that will have to go then, a lowcost or partly lowcost company doesn't fit in the 'premium segment' of Lufthansa and Star Alliance.

[galaxy]

SABENA stand for :

Such A Bad Experience Never Again

[brussels airlines]

Indeed Sabena was something special, but if you are realistic, you know that the Sabena we know, will never return.
The Sabena you people love, can never be the Sabena that could return, even not with Lufthansa. Why not?
Because Sabena was everything:
-ground handling
-technics
-catering
-academy
Now all these different parts are all part of someone else:
-ground handling -> Flightcare (FCC Spanish investment group)
-technics -> same name but part of TAT (French)
-catering -> LSG Skychefs (Lufthansa)

There never can be a Sabena anymore like we know.
Air Key West

Old aircraft -> you're right. Better an old 737 then a new A320 that crashes for some reason.

Uniforms -> Just put a pin on it? Wow and you are blaming SN of being cheap. If SN did this, you probably say: what a lowcost airline wich even can't buy some decent new ones.

The website is still under development and has indeed some errors at this moment.

The Oil prices -> yes they are going down, for now. But if you've read some newspapers these day's, you should know that these prices will rise again. Another remark is that the value of the Dollar to the Euro is increasing. This is bad because we pay our Oil in Dollars. And last but not least, the current economic problems will lead to a decrease of passengers.

b.flex economy + / b.light economy : This study was made in a time that lowcostcarriers were starting to dominate the market. It would lead to the following situation: an airport has 1 big carrier (like AF-BA-LH) and a bunch of lowcostcarriers. The focus wasn't on the price of a seat, but on how many pax you get in one plane.
Today, it is a totally different situation. Lowcostcarriers are going bankrupt. The small airlines are being bought by big carriers. So this will lead to the following situation: at an airport you have 1 big alliance (like Star) and maybe 1 or 2 lowcostcarriers. The focus is now not on how many pax, but on how much a passenger pays.
The strategy from two years ago, has been modified. Wich will probably result in a break-even result at the end of the year.

And you know what the big difference is about 'your' great Sabena and 'mine' incompetent Brussels Airlines ? Brussels Airlines is making profits, Sabena never did. That are the simple facts.

And yeah sure, I see those African people already say: were flying today with Sabena by Lufthansa. Why not Sabena by Swissair, that would be great, just like old times!