I stand to be corrected (I'm always hapy to learn) but I thought b.air was a private entreprise not a state owned airline.
I understand that civil aviation is difficult in Belgium because of politics (ministers forcing pilots to take off from or to land on runways against normal international safety procedures) but can Belgian politicians still have a say in how an airline is being run, since there is no more state owned airline ? As far as I know Philippe Van der Putten's appointment as b.air CEO was not a political appointment like some appointments made at the time of sabena. Or am I wrong on this one, too ? Tell me more.
Pilot shortage at Brussels Airlines ?
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Air Key West
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jan_olieslagers
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Air Key West
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I seem to remember the delocalization to Luxembourg did not go through at a time when sabena was still controlled by the state. Things have changed, at least a little more than you claim. I agree a lot more could be done, but I don't think the state (or politicians) still has a lot to say in the way airlines are run today. Maybe still a little bit, but far less than before. Let's not only be pessimistic 
In favor of quality air travel.
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jan_olieslagers
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Obviously you did NOT read earlier in this thread so I did for you, lazybums:
tolipanebas wrote: Both middle management and pilots in principle agree delocalisation would be an acceptable mean to quickly reduce the GROSS salaries, while at the same time increase the NET salaries : a win-win situation so to say, yet the share holders have blocked this idea as it is reportedly seen as unpatriotic by them.
Yep indeed! And don't forget: it's not because it says the shareholders agreed that there are no politics involved! Some of the shareholders (D'avignon, Lippens,...) have interest in maintaining there good political contacts for different of their projects. Consequently, politics certainly has an - be it indirect - influence.jan_olieslagers wrote:Obviously you did NOT read earlier in this thread so I did for you, lazybums:
tolipanebas wrote: Both middle management and pilots in principle agree delocalisation would be an acceptable mean to quickly reduce the GROSS salaries, while at the same time increase the NET salaries : a win-win situation so to say, yet the share holders have blocked this idea as it is reportedly seen as unpatriotic by them.
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Air Key West
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Air Key West
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There is an article in the Herald Tribune today which might interest some of you, called New Pilots Paying to Fly. Can be read online at www.iht.com
In favor of quality air travel.
New pilots paying to fly
By Nicola Clark Published: August 21, 2007
IHT
SCHIPHOL, Netherlands: When Austin Whitehead started his first job as a co-pilot with Ryanair this month, he had a little more than 250 hours of flight experience under his belt - and €92,000 in loans to repay for his training.
"I don't think it's right to have to pay so much to get to where you want to be," said Whitehead, a 20-year-old Londoner who recently capped 14 months of flight school with a flight simulator course here, near the main Amsterdam airport. Still, he conceded, "I've never seriously thought about doing anything else."
It might seem odd that eager young pilots have to go so deeply into debt - about $124,000 in Whitehead's case - when new airlines are popping up like weeds and many are scrambling to find qualified flight crews.
But he and other would-be flyboys are being squeezed by two recent trends. One is the downsizing of many national militaries, where most pilots used to get their training at government expense. The other is a new business model at airlines for cutting as many costs as possible through outsourcing - including pilot training.
In the mid-1990s, about three-quarters of the pilots flying for the world's major airlines were trained by the military, according to the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration. Today, however, that figure has fallen sharply, to about 40 percent. Not only are air forces getting smaller, but governments are requiring longer service commitments from the pilots they train.
"The military is not producing as many pilots, so that pocket has dwindled," said Jeff Roberts, chief executive of CAE, a provider of aviation training services and flight simulators for military and civilian aircraft, based in Montreal.
To fill their remaining pilot needs, commercial airlines have traditionally recruited from among charter and cargo pilots. Many of the larger carriers - including Lufthansa, British Airways and Qantas - have also operated their own flight training schools, with their own rigorous selection processes. Those include aptitude tests in math and physics, as well as psychological and physical fitness exams.
Thousands still apply each year for a few dozen slots and the training has, historically, been largely, if not entirely, financed by the airlines. But as global air traffic continues its rapid expansion, airlines are facing a growing shortage of qualified cockpit crews at a time when they have fewer financial resources available to train them.
For younger, start-up airlines in particular, the costs of building qualified flight crews is substantial: With each new aircraft an airline adds to its fleet, it needs, on average, about 10 new pilots, industry executives said.
For a carrier like Ryanair, for example, a $200,000 investment in a single pilot could cost the equivalent of more than 3,000 seats on its European network, which sell for an average of $60, one way. That is equivalent to 17 fully booked Boeing 737s - before accounting for other operating expenses, like jet fuel, maintenance, cabin crew salaries and airport landing fees.
Hence the financial and logistical appeal to a growing number of airlines of using private flight training schools to recruit and train prospective pilots.
"As carriers are looking to have the lowest possible cost structure, they outsource many things," said Günther Matschnigg, senior vice president for safety, operations and infrastructure for the International Air Transport Association in Montreal. "It is part of the new business model."
Instead of investing in their own training centers, instructors and multi-million dollar flight simulators, more and more air carriers are signing agreements with pilot training companies to provide a pool of qualified candidates for potential hire. Under this system, the school gets paid a fee by the airline, the airline gets a trained pilot and the costs - as well as the financial risks - are borne by the applicant.
"The typical, in-house airline selection process is not happening anymore," Matschnigg said. "There are more training schools being established all over the world, all the time."
Whitehead got his job at Ryanair through just such a program, gaining his certification to fly Boeing 737 jets at a training center just outside Amsterdam run by Roberts's company, CAE. Over the past three years, the airline, based in Dublin, has recruited more than 350 pilots trained by CAE. In April, Ryanair signed a new four-year contract with the Canadian company, worth about $24 million, to provide 1,200 qualified pilot candidates.
CAE has similar deals with other carriers, including the low-cost Indian carrier IndiGo and AirAsia of Malaysia, and it trains more than 75,000 crew members every year at facilities in 19 countries, making it one of the world's largest pilot training companies.
"The challenge is to keep the quality of the training up to a high standard" at the flight schools, Matschnigg said. "It's important to keep the knowledge and skill profile of pilots the same, so that someone cannot become a pilot just because he has the money to pay for the training."
Whitehead said he began writing to airline recruiters at the age of 10, seeking advice on what subjects to study to improve his chances of getting into flight school. Thanks to an uncle, who is also a professional pilot, he was regularly invited to sit in the cockpit whenever his family flew on vacation, where he tried to familiarize himself with the bewildering array of dials and displays.
But his dreams of getting into an airline-sponsored school began to fizzle shortly after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.
"First, the airlines just stopped hiring," said Whitehead, who was only 14 at the time. "Then, when the jobs came back, suddenly everyone had to pay for their initial training themselves."
At current tuition rates, an investment in pilot training can be comparable to that for law school or for any number of professional degrees. But in recent years, the wage and benefit packages for pilots have diminished considerably, especially in North America and Europe, where the explosion in the number of low-cost airlines has transformed air travel from a luxury experience into a commodity. Industry executives say the effect has been to raise the barriers to entry into the profession dramatically.
"The money is not as big as it was in the past," said Matschnigg, himself a former Austrian Airlines pilot. He estimated that, globally, average pilot salaries were down between 10 percent and 20 percent from the levels of 10 to 15 years ago. The sharpest drops, he said, took place in the United States after Sept. 11, when a number of major carriers were forced into bankruptcy. In Europe, fierce competition on short-haul routes has forced even full-service airlines to keep a lid on staff salaries and other operating costs.
Given the level of competition, airlines are generally reluctant to discuss pilot salaries. On its Web site, Ryanair says that a first officer with 1,500 flight hours of experience can earn "up to" €80,000, or $108,000, a year while a flight captain can earn as much as €130,000. International safety regulations restrict pilot flying time to 900 hours a year. Ryanair has said it is possible to reach these salaries within three to five years of hire.
Ryanair's rival, EasyJet, based in Luton, England, advertises starting annual salaries for "senior" first officers based in Britain of between £33,000 and £45,000, or $66,000 and $90,000, and £62,000 to £74,000 for experienced captains. Loyalty bonuses are paid after the first two years of service, starting at 5 percent of annual salary and rising to 15 percent after 10 years.
At full-service carriers, the basic pay is comparable. Most pilots consider these employers more prestigious, but winning a promotion to captain, especially at a flag carrier, can take years because of seniority systems and collective bargaining agreements.
Whitehead declined to disclose his own salary, citing a confidentiality agreement with Ryanair. But indicative salaries posted on widely read Internet pilot message boards like www.pilotjobsnetwork.com or www.pprune.org suggest that a new "cadet" pilot on a Boeing 737 or Airbus A320-type jet in Europe could expect to earn little more than €35,000.
At those wages, a young pilot like Whitehead can expect to spend the next 10 to 15 years paying off his flight school loans.
Yet despite the financial risks, Whitehead's investment is likely to pay off in a long career. The International Air Transport Association estimates the world's airlines will have to invest in 19,000 new aircraft between now and 2025, meaning they will need to hire an additional 218,500 pilots, or roughly 12,000 a year.
Of the 13 cadets in Whitehead's initial flight training class, 12 have found jobs with airlines.
By Nicola Clark Published: August 21, 2007
IHT
SCHIPHOL, Netherlands: When Austin Whitehead started his first job as a co-pilot with Ryanair this month, he had a little more than 250 hours of flight experience under his belt - and €92,000 in loans to repay for his training.
"I don't think it's right to have to pay so much to get to where you want to be," said Whitehead, a 20-year-old Londoner who recently capped 14 months of flight school with a flight simulator course here, near the main Amsterdam airport. Still, he conceded, "I've never seriously thought about doing anything else."
It might seem odd that eager young pilots have to go so deeply into debt - about $124,000 in Whitehead's case - when new airlines are popping up like weeds and many are scrambling to find qualified flight crews.
But he and other would-be flyboys are being squeezed by two recent trends. One is the downsizing of many national militaries, where most pilots used to get their training at government expense. The other is a new business model at airlines for cutting as many costs as possible through outsourcing - including pilot training.
In the mid-1990s, about three-quarters of the pilots flying for the world's major airlines were trained by the military, according to the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration. Today, however, that figure has fallen sharply, to about 40 percent. Not only are air forces getting smaller, but governments are requiring longer service commitments from the pilots they train.
"The military is not producing as many pilots, so that pocket has dwindled," said Jeff Roberts, chief executive of CAE, a provider of aviation training services and flight simulators for military and civilian aircraft, based in Montreal.
To fill their remaining pilot needs, commercial airlines have traditionally recruited from among charter and cargo pilots. Many of the larger carriers - including Lufthansa, British Airways and Qantas - have also operated their own flight training schools, with their own rigorous selection processes. Those include aptitude tests in math and physics, as well as psychological and physical fitness exams.
Thousands still apply each year for a few dozen slots and the training has, historically, been largely, if not entirely, financed by the airlines. But as global air traffic continues its rapid expansion, airlines are facing a growing shortage of qualified cockpit crews at a time when they have fewer financial resources available to train them.
For younger, start-up airlines in particular, the costs of building qualified flight crews is substantial: With each new aircraft an airline adds to its fleet, it needs, on average, about 10 new pilots, industry executives said.
For a carrier like Ryanair, for example, a $200,000 investment in a single pilot could cost the equivalent of more than 3,000 seats on its European network, which sell for an average of $60, one way. That is equivalent to 17 fully booked Boeing 737s - before accounting for other operating expenses, like jet fuel, maintenance, cabin crew salaries and airport landing fees.
Hence the financial and logistical appeal to a growing number of airlines of using private flight training schools to recruit and train prospective pilots.
"As carriers are looking to have the lowest possible cost structure, they outsource many things," said Günther Matschnigg, senior vice president for safety, operations and infrastructure for the International Air Transport Association in Montreal. "It is part of the new business model."
Instead of investing in their own training centers, instructors and multi-million dollar flight simulators, more and more air carriers are signing agreements with pilot training companies to provide a pool of qualified candidates for potential hire. Under this system, the school gets paid a fee by the airline, the airline gets a trained pilot and the costs - as well as the financial risks - are borne by the applicant.
"The typical, in-house airline selection process is not happening anymore," Matschnigg said. "There are more training schools being established all over the world, all the time."
Whitehead got his job at Ryanair through just such a program, gaining his certification to fly Boeing 737 jets at a training center just outside Amsterdam run by Roberts's company, CAE. Over the past three years, the airline, based in Dublin, has recruited more than 350 pilots trained by CAE. In April, Ryanair signed a new four-year contract with the Canadian company, worth about $24 million, to provide 1,200 qualified pilot candidates.
CAE has similar deals with other carriers, including the low-cost Indian carrier IndiGo and AirAsia of Malaysia, and it trains more than 75,000 crew members every year at facilities in 19 countries, making it one of the world's largest pilot training companies.
"The challenge is to keep the quality of the training up to a high standard" at the flight schools, Matschnigg said. "It's important to keep the knowledge and skill profile of pilots the same, so that someone cannot become a pilot just because he has the money to pay for the training."
Whitehead said he began writing to airline recruiters at the age of 10, seeking advice on what subjects to study to improve his chances of getting into flight school. Thanks to an uncle, who is also a professional pilot, he was regularly invited to sit in the cockpit whenever his family flew on vacation, where he tried to familiarize himself with the bewildering array of dials and displays.
But his dreams of getting into an airline-sponsored school began to fizzle shortly after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.
"First, the airlines just stopped hiring," said Whitehead, who was only 14 at the time. "Then, when the jobs came back, suddenly everyone had to pay for their initial training themselves."
At current tuition rates, an investment in pilot training can be comparable to that for law school or for any number of professional degrees. But in recent years, the wage and benefit packages for pilots have diminished considerably, especially in North America and Europe, where the explosion in the number of low-cost airlines has transformed air travel from a luxury experience into a commodity. Industry executives say the effect has been to raise the barriers to entry into the profession dramatically.
"The money is not as big as it was in the past," said Matschnigg, himself a former Austrian Airlines pilot. He estimated that, globally, average pilot salaries were down between 10 percent and 20 percent from the levels of 10 to 15 years ago. The sharpest drops, he said, took place in the United States after Sept. 11, when a number of major carriers were forced into bankruptcy. In Europe, fierce competition on short-haul routes has forced even full-service airlines to keep a lid on staff salaries and other operating costs.
Given the level of competition, airlines are generally reluctant to discuss pilot salaries. On its Web site, Ryanair says that a first officer with 1,500 flight hours of experience can earn "up to" €80,000, or $108,000, a year while a flight captain can earn as much as €130,000. International safety regulations restrict pilot flying time to 900 hours a year. Ryanair has said it is possible to reach these salaries within three to five years of hire.
Ryanair's rival, EasyJet, based in Luton, England, advertises starting annual salaries for "senior" first officers based in Britain of between £33,000 and £45,000, or $66,000 and $90,000, and £62,000 to £74,000 for experienced captains. Loyalty bonuses are paid after the first two years of service, starting at 5 percent of annual salary and rising to 15 percent after 10 years.
At full-service carriers, the basic pay is comparable. Most pilots consider these employers more prestigious, but winning a promotion to captain, especially at a flag carrier, can take years because of seniority systems and collective bargaining agreements.
Whitehead declined to disclose his own salary, citing a confidentiality agreement with Ryanair. But indicative salaries posted on widely read Internet pilot message boards like www.pilotjobsnetwork.com or www.pprune.org suggest that a new "cadet" pilot on a Boeing 737 or Airbus A320-type jet in Europe could expect to earn little more than €35,000.
At those wages, a young pilot like Whitehead can expect to spend the next 10 to 15 years paying off his flight school loans.
Yet despite the financial risks, Whitehead's investment is likely to pay off in a long career. The International Air Transport Association estimates the world's airlines will have to invest in 19,000 new aircraft between now and 2025, meaning they will need to hire an additional 218,500 pilots, or roughly 12,000 a year.
Of the 13 cadets in Whitehead's initial flight training class, 12 have found jobs with airlines.
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FLY4HOURS.BE
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Yeah, a lot of people don't realize how much the training costs, and are not aware of the risks of such a way of living. You can loose everything day after day...
It is of course much easier to say, behind his own PC, that pilots only think about money etc etc... Easy, indeed, easy and disgusting in a way.
It is of course much easier to say, behind his own PC, that pilots only think about money etc etc... Easy, indeed, easy and disgusting in a way.
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Air Key West
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I cannot remember anyone saying here that pilots only think of money. I remember saying myself, as a pax, that you cannot talk of a decent salary for a commercial airline pilot if it's only 3,500 net (with a total cost for the airline over 10,000). There is nothing wrong with asking for a salary which is proportionate with one's qualifications and responsibilities (= definitely more than 3,500 net for a pilot).
In favor of quality air travel.
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Vinnie-Winnie
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A train driver has as many responsabilities or even more if you take into account how many passengers trains carry, and they get paid less.Air Key West wrote:I cannot remember anyone saying here that pilots only think of money. I remember saying myself, as a pax, that you cannot talk of a decent salary for a commercial airline pilot if it's only 3,500 net (with a total cost for the airline over 10,000). There is nothing wrong with asking for a salary which is proportionate with one's qualifications and responsibilities (= definitely more than 3,500 net for a pilot).
ATC has even more responsabilities, get paid less...
Fireman, police officer, can't think of any others cause I'm dead knackered, but yeah don't find that a good enough argument to huge pay for pilots!
If there is too much supply of pilots, wages will go down! it is as simple as that! The question is really about company strategy!
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Air Key West
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Air Key West
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Vinnie-Winnie
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you can be a pilot straight after school I believe! What do Nurses school teachers have to say about their pay? seriously mate dunno if u are a pilot or what but your comments are laughable!Air Key West wrote:Train drivers, fire fighters and police officers don't need the same qualifications as airline pilots.
And it is also a question of offer and demand.
Bus drivers in the UK used to make a very nice earning before deregulation! Now they get paid less well tough so is life! Same in the US and to some extend in Europe after dereg of the airline industry! Tough
With all due respects to pilots being a pilot is starting to be like any kind of driver job! Just need to learn a bit more...
So let me get something straight: You find it perfectly normal that those who are planning and managing the network should be paid less like they probably are at the moment right?
But the same people actually provide pilots a living!
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octaviuslem
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But in case of problem, the pilots can't just say "OK I will stop here in the middle of the sky and call the maintenance".Vinnie-Winnie wrote: With all due respects to pilots being a pilot is starting to be like any kind of driver job! Just need to learn a bit more...
But it's right, in the mind of some person, a pilot is just a bus driver.
Some people tend to forget something:
Pilots do not only just fly planes, they also have to pass recurrent training every six months with always the risk of loosing their licence to fly. Pilots also have to pay for their training unlike people in planning (often around 80-100 000 euros) before they can start earning something. Pilots also sacrifice a lot of their social life. Night stops, weekends away from home, often only known a short time in advance. The responsabilities are slightly different being a pilot than being a bus driver as well. It is about time that some people start realising this instead of making comments.
Furthermore, if pilots can have twice the earnings for the same lifestyle, it is obvious that they leave the company. There is really not much more to say about that.
GRTZ
Pilots do not only just fly planes, they also have to pass recurrent training every six months with always the risk of loosing their licence to fly. Pilots also have to pay for their training unlike people in planning (often around 80-100 000 euros) before they can start earning something. Pilots also sacrifice a lot of their social life. Night stops, weekends away from home, often only known a short time in advance. The responsabilities are slightly different being a pilot than being a bus driver as well. It is about time that some people start realising this instead of making comments.
Furthermore, if pilots can have twice the earnings for the same lifestyle, it is obvious that they leave the company. There is really not much more to say about that.
GRTZ
You are the winner of the "I don't know nothing about flying but I say it right" trophee, my friendVinnie-Winnie wrote: With all due respects to pilots being a pilot is starting to be like any kind of driver job! Just need to learn a bit more...
With such comments, you might have to hide yourself a little bit sometimes...
You also have no idea about what the training involves.
In this discussion, you can clearly see who is involved and who would like to have his word to say about a completely unknown topic.
This makes the forum quite heavy to read sometimes... I agree that everybody can give his own opinion, but please, don't be too ridiculous
With all due respects to pilots being a pilot is starting to be like any kind of driver job! Just need to learn a bit more...
So let me get something straight: You find it perfectly normal that those who are planning and managing the network should be paid less like they probably are at the moment right?
Dear Vinnie
The difference is that if the train driver dies the train stops, if both pilots die they take all passengers with them.
So let me get something straight: You find it perfectly normal that those who are planning and managing the network should be paid less like they probably are at the moment right?
Dear Vinnie
The difference is that if the train driver dies the train stops, if both pilots die they take all passengers with them.