EU bans all Indonesian and some other airlines

bxleu · Post by **bxleu** » 28 Jun 2007, 13:12

The new list includes all 51 carriers from Indonesia, Angolan carrier TAAG Angola Airlines, and Volare Aviation from Ukraine

Read more at http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6248490.stm

chunk · Post by **chunk** » 28 Jun 2007, 15:03

Wonder what the hell TAAG did wrong to get on this list!!! They have brand new 777's and 738's and get Beoing Gold Care amongst other things. There paperwork must be really screwed up.

Provided the Angola Government doesn;t take the serious huff with the EU TAP are going to clean up big style. They have many more flights a week than BA, SN or AF - which have one each and they are always full anyway. SAA should maybe delay binning the 747's....

I see a necessity for our ticket budget to Angola to get increased....

fokker_f27 · Post by **fokker_f27** » 28 Jun 2007, 16:58

Okay, this really is getting absurd. I can understand the Indonesian carriers but TAAG??!

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 28 Jun 2007, 17:25

off course quality and friendliness are no reference to safety, but:

http://www.airlinequality.com/Airlines/DT.htm

Robin_Bamps · Post by **Robin_Bamps** » 28 Jun 2007, 17:33

Looks like the EU blacklist is more and morning turning out in a list to protect the own European airlines against concurrence from abroad (as I heard TAAG is doing better on the Luanda-Lisbon route than TAP does)...

To ban TAAG completely even after their complete fleet renewal with brandnew aircraft is hard to understand.

Regards, Robin Bamps.

fokker_f27 · Post by **fokker_f27** » 28 Jun 2007, 17:37

Robin_Bamps wrote:Looks like the EU blacklist is more and morning turning out in a list to protect the own European airlines against concurrence from abroad (as I heard TAAG is doing better on the Luanda-Lisbon route than TAP does)...

To ban TAAG completely even after their complete fleet renewal with brandnew aircraft is hard to understand.

Regards, Robin Bamps.

That's exactly what I was thinking.

fcw · Post by **fcw** » 28 Jun 2007, 18:21

Robin, f27, I am afraid it looks like the EU has a crystal ball:
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L28886892.htm

Robin_Bamps · Post by **Robin_Bamps** » 28 Jun 2007, 18:26

That's indeed a sad coincidence !

But let's wait what the reason(s) of the crash were. In the past years also some European airliners crashed (I remember a Crossair Avro and Saab, an Air France A343 and Concorde, a Luxair FK50, a Helios B733, a Turkish Airlines Avro, etc... ; some of them even due to technical issues) and these airlines weren't banned either.

Regards, Robin Bamps.

Robin_Bamps · Post by **Robin_Bamps** » 28 Jun 2007, 20:36

Update: the crashed plane was a 732, not a 73G.

So still no reason IMO to ban the brandnew airplanes (73G and 772).

Regards, Robin Bamps.

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 28 Jun 2007, 20:39

first picture:

http://www.angolapress-angop.ao/noticia.asp?ID=541837

jan_olieslagers · Post by **jan_olieslagers** » 28 Jun 2007, 20:40

Robin_Bamps wrote:To ban TAAG completely even after their complete fleet renewal with brandnew aircraft is hard to understand.

It has often been argued and illustrated, on these pages and elsewhere, that airliner safety has little to do with the age of the plane but much more with the operator's maintenance and safety practice.

That being said, the economic value of the EU blacklist is certainly important, I fully agree with you there!

carlcat · Post by **carlcat** » 28 Jun 2007, 23:02

The airlines might be good or bad but if the aeronautic administration in the concerned countries are corrupt , incompetent , it can also be a base to ban all airlines of concerned countries .

regi · Post by **regi** » 29 Jun 2007, 00:48

To Chunk and Robin: I think that Carlcat is right here.
We have seen falcification of maintenance records also in western countries, such as the Alsaskan MD-80 crash.
But in some countries, it is just impossible to trust government bodies because they are utterly poisoned by corruption.
But it can go in the good direction as well: look what happened with Phuket Airlines. It had a bad record. And european legislation prevented a crash. In the long run, phuket airlines disappeared, because the local Thai authority was no longer helpful.

website-info · Post by **website-info** » 29 Jun 2007, 09:01

Guys,

hopefully the TAAG crash (IF atributed to bad maintenance and I say IF) has nothingf to do with it's last C-Check a few weeks ago as this was done in Romania ....................

T

LeFreak · Post by **LeFreak** » 29 Jun 2007, 09:39

you can have the youngest fleet in the world, if your pilots aren't trained to high standards, accidents are waiting to happen .. i'm not claiming this is the case at TAAG, i just bring this forward as one of the possible explanations of the ban .. a pilot is only as good as his training, and maybe the EU blacklist takes this into account as well ..

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 30 Jun 2007, 11:05

In "Lateline" from 7th March 2007, a televison program from ABC (Australia), there was a three minute coverage on Indonesian aviation safety. Australia is very close to Indonesia, so they are quite well interested.

text:
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/ ... 865924.htm

program, Windows Media:
http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200703/r130110_429510.asx

program, Real Player:
http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200703/r130110_429508.ram

chunk · Post by **chunk** » 30 Jun 2007, 14:14

regi wrote:To Chunk and Robin: I think that Carlcat is right here.
We have seen falcification of maintenance records also in western countries, such as the Alsaskan MD-80 crash.
But in some countries, it is just impossible to trust government bodies because they are utterly poisoned by corruption.
But it can go in the good direction as well: look what happened with Phuket Airlines. It had a bad record. And european legislation prevented a crash. In the long run, phuket airlines disappeared, because the local Thai authority was no longer helpful.

Completely agree that if they are unsafe they should be banned from the EU. Just surprised that's all given the big hoo hah they makedown in Luanda about the new Boeings they got. That said, they have of course gone and blown it by the looks of things. BA flights to LAD cancelled as they had landing rights pulled. Not a surprise to be honest. Instead of getting their safety procedures right they retaliate....that is what it is like working down there too. The offend very easily - especially in government!

Robin - I doubt TAAG were doing better than TAP on the Lisbon run. They may have slightly higher load figures but they are a lot cheaper - especially when buying the ticket in Luanda!

chunk · Post by **chunk** » 04 Jul 2007, 11:32

I am in Luanda now and it seems the Angolans are deadly serious about this ban. Starts Friday if Portugal and France (and I assume, Belgium) do what the UK CAA did last week and inform Angola of the ban. Air France was here yesterday and left as are TAP flights until Friday only because their relevant aviation authorities are waiting until the report is officially released - then they are bound by it.

It is going to be carnage. There are thousands of offshore workers on rotation that will not be able to work because they have spent too long offshore and replacements that cant get here. It is only when it starts hitting the bottom line that the Angolans will realise what they are doing is idiotic and damaging to their reputation.

They need to fix TAAG - so fix it and get the ban lifted - the EU has shown that it lifts bans pretty quickly when the problems are resolved. On a related issue, I heard that the TAAG crash last week was due to the plane touching down before the runway. Thats what they are saying here anyway.....so maintenance unlikely the problem. Proves the EU was probably right though....

bxleu · Post by **bxleu** » 04 Jul 2007, 12:54

Today the European Commission adopted the new measures against unsafe carriers
see http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAct ... anguage=en

SN30952 · Post by **SN30952** » 04 Jul 2007, 13:26

chunk wrote:Completely agree that if they are unsafe they should be banned from the EU...... BA flights to LAD cancelled as they had landing rights pulled. Not a surprise to be honest. Instead of getting their safety procedures right they retaliate....that is what it is like working down there too. The offend very easily - especially in government!

I can't but agree, there should be no concessions on safety.
And that about retaliations, sounds familiar to me.

Revenge or vengeance consists of retaliation against a person or group in response to perceived wrongdoing. Also an action taken in return for an injury or offense.
The EU ban, the infamous blacklisting of airlines by the EU, is indeed perceived as a wrongdoing and even as an offense by some countries. Their - corrupted? - systems see their way of handling as a standard procedure, resulting in a shock of .... cultures.
And that's also how terrorism was born.
Here it is western (aviation) technology used outside the West, which is rated not up to western standards... a contradiction based on principles of ICAO, IATA... IMF, EU, ETC...
Should the West not be more selective with its partners to which it provides its technology? Or as a Flemish politician said: "Europa schiet met kanon op mug die geen kant op kan", "Europe is shooting its big gun on a mosquito that has no chance to escape".
There are other ways, indeed. But should Europe pay, again? Is there an alternative to the ban?