Air France Announces $7 Billion Aircraft Order

TallDutch · Post by **TallDutch** » 24 May 2007, 10:59

Air France announced a $7 billion aircraft order on Thursday, split between Airbus.

The deals include an order for two more A380 superjumbos, the world's largest airliner whose two-year production delays have left manufacturer Airbus facing penalties to airlines.

Air France said it had also placed orders for 30 A320-family single-aisle aircraft from Airbus and 18 wide-body 777 long-haul aircraft from Boeing.

The Boeing 777 order is designed to help phase out Boeing 747s in the Air France network and includes 5 cargo aircraft.

Air France merged with Dutch national airline KLM in 2004 but the two operate separate fleets and networks.

Air France had already placed orders for 10 double-decker A380s with options for another 4. The airline exercised half of these options, bringing its firm order for the model to 12 and leaving it with margin to buy another two later.

Air France officials said the new order for two more A380s was part of a compensation agreement with Airbus to cover the initial delivery delays, but that the same agreement would also include unspecified cash penalties.

URL: http://www.cnbc.com/id/18836000/

chunk · Post by **chunk** » 24 May 2007, 12:51

Well not really surprised that they should update some of the older A320's they have flying about. Nor is it a surprise that they get more T7's especially as they seem to like the 300ER a lot. As a passenger I don't but then I still end up on the bloody things so AF are doing something right....

As for the 380's. Interesting that more and more of those existing customers are picking up options....the testing figures must look really good. I expect more to come from elsewhere soon....

smokejumper · Post by **smokejumper** » 24 May 2007, 14:35

Is this part of the large order (30+ planes) that has been rumored about for the past week, or is it separate and another airline order for 787's is in the wings?

beaucaire · Post by **beaucaire** » 24 May 2007, 14:38

About the A380's -Qantas have announced to be introducing a major enhancement in Y-Class seating comfort on their A380's -so I assume all those carriers flying the Whale on high-density routes will have a considerable advantage over 787 flights...
AF have not been ordering the 787-most likely considered as too small for their purpose.AF runs a tight Paris - HUB operation with no secondary airports operating Long Distance-so the 787 simply does not fit their requirements.The 777 seems from a bean-counters perspective a great aircraft ,personally I prefer the 747 or would most defenitely love the A380 due to the silent cabin envirenment.

RC20 · Post by **RC20** » 24 May 2007, 20:52

Some time back I did a rant on what the customer wants is a yadi yadi PR thing. It what the airlines thing works that counts (whether it does or not is irrelevant, they own it and get to do it).

The comments on the 777 seem to bear that out. Not that its bad, but not as preferred as other airplanes, but it’s the economics of it that drive the purchase, not all the wonderful things it does for the victims (I mean customers).

It also does not mean its all bad. Point to point is a way for lower cost airlines to get into the market, so they will buy those aircraft that allow them to do so.

As I am never going to be one of those up front in a seat that’s as big as our car, that’s not something I care about (what an amazing thing to have that kind of money to waste).
I like to think I wouldn’t if I could, but probably not entirely true either.

fcw · Post by **fcw** » 24 May 2007, 21:44

chunk wrote: As for the 380's. Interesting that more and more of those existing customers are picking up options....the testing figures must look really good. I expect more to come from elsewhere soon....

I think it has more to do with Airbus almost giving the A380 for free as compensation for late delivery. If test results would be that much better than expected Airbus would be making a lot of publicity about it. Personally, I still don't believe the short wires being the only reason for the delays...

smokejumper · Post by **smokejumper** » 24 May 2007, 23:13

RC20 wrote:Some time back I did a rant on what the customer wants is a yadi yadi PR thing. It what the airlines thing works that counts (whether it does or not is irrelevant, they own it and get to do it).

The comments on the 777 seem to bear that out. Not that its bad, but not as preferred as other airplanes, but it’s the economics of it that drive the purchase, not all the wonderful things it does for the victims (I mean customers).

It also does not mean its all bad. Point to point is a way for lower cost airlines to get into the market, so they will buy those aircraft that allow them to do so.

As I am never going to be one of those up front in a seat that’s as big as our car, that’s not something I care about (what an amazing thing to have that kind of money to waste).
I like to think I wouldn’t if I could, but probably not entirely true either.

I do not feel that the 777 (from passenger point-of-view) is any worse than ay other plane. I too, do not regularly travel in the big seats up front when I travel on my dime. When I was a consultant and traveled at my client's expense, I generally flew business class for 5+ hour flights; this is much more comfortable, but when I'm paying the fare, I generally select coach.

My experiences are that the 747, 767, 777, A-330/340 all offer about the same comfort in comparable class accomodations. Sure, I like more room, but I'll save the money and sit for 7 hours in less space.

cageyjames · Post by **cageyjames** » 25 May 2007, 00:50

767 at 2-3-2 is far superior to the 3-3-3 or 3-4-3 that you see on those other widebody.

From a customer POV of course.

Post by **sn26567** » 25 May 2007, 14:37

cageyjames wrote:767 at 2-3-2 is far superior to the 3-3-3 or 3-4-3 that you see on those other widebody.

Yes, but often the B767 has a 2-4-2 configuration, which is much worse than the 2-4-2 on the wider A330!

smokejumper · Post by **smokejumper** » 25 May 2007, 15:06

Seating widths and layouts are the airline's call. They will put in as many seats as the plane allows to maximize revenues. If a manufacturer makes an Xtra-Wide Body that allows an extra seat, they'll stuff it with a seat. As the new A350 is 10 inches (25.4 cm) wider "than the 787 competition), perhaps the airlines might stuff a 10 inch-wide seat in the extra space, offer it for infant travel and, charge an extra fare, discounted appropriately for the smaller passenger!

It is not the manufacturer who decides the seat configuration, the airline selects the seats, the width and the pitch.

TexasGuy · Post by **TexasGuy** » 25 May 2007, 17:49

sn26567 wrote:Yes, but often the B767 has a 2-4-2 configuration, which is much worse than the 2-4-2 on the wider A330!

Stay off of those charter carriers

achace · Post by **achace** » 26 May 2007, 06:42

At 2-3-2, the 767 has always been my preference, but 2-4-2 Ouch!

There are laws protecting animals from that sort of cruelty.

Cheers
Achace

chunk · Post by **chunk** » 26 May 2007, 13:40

Well in my view nothing surpasses the A330 / 340 for passenger comfort in either business or economy. I go on both depending on the job but in business you generally get 2-2-2 - as opposed to 2-3-3 on many airlines 777's these days. You shouldn't get a middle seat in business...

As for Economy the 2-4-2 is by far the most comfortable in my opinion. Compared to 3 -3 -3 or even 3-4-3 and add the fact they are the quietist cabins then it is all good.

I look forward to the 380 immensly....please someone fly it to LAD or JNB!!!

Like has already been seen though, passenger comfort takes a back seat over profits almost always...

PYX · Post by **PYX** » 28 May 2007, 01:56

chunk wrote:Well in my view nothing surpasses the A330 / 340 for passenger comfort in either business or economy.....

Well, in my view that is just not true.

It is the airlines that decide how many seats and where to place them and based on my own personal experience I have found the A330/340 to be inferior to both the B747 and B777 in passenger comfort in either business or economy.

David747 · Post by **David747** » 28 May 2007, 06:38

PYX wrote:
chunk wrote:Well in my view nothing surpasses the A330 / 340 for passenger comfort in either business or economy.....
Well, in my view that is just not true.
It is the airlines that decide how many seats and where to place them and based on my own personal experience I have found the A330/340 to be inferior to both the B747 and B777 in passenger comfort in either business or economy.

This debate is laughable, you would find anything Airbus does to be inferior in the end.

PYX · Post by **PYX** » 28 May 2007, 09:28

That was the whole point of my response. His opinon is just that, his opinion, and totally subjective.
As I pointed out, the airlines, not the manufacturer, decide how many seats, what kind of seats, how wide they are, and how far apart they will be placed, both side to side and front to back (pitch). Hardly a debate.

achace · Post by **achace** » 28 May 2007, 11:27

Obviouly PYX has not had to stand in the front toilet of a 737 and pee!

After 5000 attempts, Boeing still have not caught onto the need for a toilet seat to pass 90 degrees to avoid gravities impact.

Then again according to PYX they have never done anything wrong.

Perhaps he sits down to do this mundane chore, or it is the fault of all the far east carriers.

Please PYX give a bit of credit or latitude when it is due

Cheers
Achace

chunk · Post by **chunk** » 28 May 2007, 12:21

PYX wrote:That was the whole point of my response. His opinon is just that, his opinion, and totally subjective.
As I pointed out, the airlines, not the manufacturer, decide how many seats, what kind of seats, how wide they are, and how far apart they will be placed, both side to side and front to back (pitch). Hardly a debate.

Well yes - that is why I wrote 'In my opinion'. If i didnt write that then some wise ass will have come back with 'well that is in your opinion and you cant speak for everyone' so obviously with some people you can't win.

And yes - seating plans are to a point up to the airline. Not only the airline though. The fact is you cannot go ten across on an A330 / 340 and the layout is dictated to by width. I note that the fact that the 330 and 340's are quieter was ignored. I guess that is down to the airline as well right?

PYX · Post by **PYX** » 28 May 2007, 12:22

Has anyone else noticed that those who lack the intellect to engage in knowledgeable and intelligent discussions on a subject, resort to personal attacks on individuals in an effort to draw attention away from the subject at hand.
achace you really need to go back and read your own postings as objectivity as possible, if that is possible, before you start throwing stones.

Post by **sn26567** » 28 May 2007, 12:25

Hey, guys, be reasonable. Stop this feud, else I close the topic.