Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines
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Re: Lufthansa to decide on 27 April whether to take over all of Brussels Airlines
Which airplanes is everybody talking about? All the 'new' planes SN is receiving are subject to SN making deals with leasing companies... LH has nothing to do with it...
Re: Lufthansa to decide on 27 April whether to take over all of Brussels Airlines
Which is basically the same as bye bye SN (and many many backoffice jobs that can easily be done from Eurowings headquarters.)Inquirer wrote:
They might just as well confirm this is their plan now; to me, they have basically given it away already.
I think it's great news economically if indeed this is their long term plan (huge growth potential), but as you can already notice here, it's emotionally difficult to sell to many people.
Re: Lufthansa to decide on 27 April whether to take over all of Brussels Airlines
Yes, but who cares,
if BRU and B.air becomes say the BCN/LGW and the vueling/Norwegian of the LH group?
Suppose they'd grow them into an airlines twice or trice their current size quite rapidly, serving tens of additional (intercontinental) destinations: the Belgian economy, BRU and the thousands of extra jobs created through it would make it all worth it. Who cares about a couple of office jobs and a name on the fuselage, in that case?
if BRU and B.air becomes say the BCN/LGW and the vueling/Norwegian of the LH group?
Suppose they'd grow them into an airlines twice or trice their current size quite rapidly, serving tens of additional (intercontinental) destinations: the Belgian economy, BRU and the thousands of extra jobs created through it would make it all worth it. Who cares about a couple of office jobs and a name on the fuselage, in that case?
Re: Lufthansa to decide on 27 April whether to take over all of Brussels Airlines
hahaha, you have no idea what you are talking about. Just to compare ... FR runs its whole Belgian OPS with exactly 2 office jobs. Unless SN will get 200 additional aircraft, there will be a HUGE loss to the Belgian economy
Re: Lufthansa to decide on 27 April whether to take over all of Brussels Airlines
Inquirer,Inquirer wrote:Yes, but who cares,
if BRU and B.air becomes say the BCN/LGW and the vueling/Norwegian of the LH group?
Suppose they'd grow them into an airlines twice or trice their current size quite rapidly, serving tens of additional (intercontinental) destinations: the Belgian economy, BRU and the thousands of extra jobs created through it would make it all worth it. Who cares about a couple of office jobs and a name on the fuselage, in that case?
Why would they need to buy SN if that was their plan? They have 10 A340s sitting idle in FRA today; too costly for regular service but maybe OK for priming the pump and start the grand scheme you're describing. As for the name, the Germans may act rational rather than emotional, but if a good and profitable business is partially based on emotional considerations, they won't mind.
Anyway, we're all speculating here...A few more days to wait for... a possible non-event?!
Re: Lufthansa to decide on 27 April whether to take over all of Brussels Airlines
I dont know that yet.sean1982 wrote:hahaha, you have no idea what you are talking about. Just to compare ... FR runs its whole Belgian OPS with exactly 2 office jobs. Unless SN will get 200 additional aircraft, there will be a HUGE loss to the Belgian economy
How many office jobs are there at Bru. Air?
Not ground jobs, office jobs. 100? 200?
Their annual account puts it somewhere in between.
That's about the needs to crew 1 A330s on a daily basis.
now suppose they double their fleet indeed!
Just saying.
but indeed, it's all just speculation: there's no news, no urgency, and probably no change indeed.
Come again next year.
Re: Lufthansa to decide on 27 April whether to take over all of Brussels Airlines
What? Bru.Air employs more than 800 people on the ground. (office or ground doesn't matter. Everything can and will be contracted out. It's waaaaaay cheaper in an model like Eurowings)
how many crew for 1 A330? 100? Please
how many crew for 1 A330? 100? Please
Re: Lufthansa to decide on 27 April whether to take over all of Brussels Airlines
Who cares?? Those loosing their job, no...?
The empatic level on this forum is quite low.
The empatic level on this forum is quite low.
Re: Lufthansa to decide on 27 April whether to take over all of Brussels Airlines
Careful Sean,
OFFICE staff can be relocated (and their jobs lost), GROUND staff (often) can't and will always be needed in BRU: don't mix everything up, just to back up a wrong point.
But inform us, just how many crew does one need to have an A330 fly day in day out, 7 days per week?
I'd estimate it at 10 crew per flight, so 20 per day, times 5 to take into account their rest at the destination, their rest upon return in Belgium, their holidays etc. Give or take 10, it'll be close to a hundred, depending the exact destination and the number of frequencies to it.
FWIW, they are hiring 240 people this year: are they indeed adding hundreds of planes then?
Not working in the industry indeed, but you sir are posting some really strange comments as of lately, which are a bit too obviously wrong to go unnoticed even to an outsider.
OFFICE staff can be relocated (and their jobs lost), GROUND staff (often) can't and will always be needed in BRU: don't mix everything up, just to back up a wrong point.
But inform us, just how many crew does one need to have an A330 fly day in day out, 7 days per week?
I'd estimate it at 10 crew per flight, so 20 per day, times 5 to take into account their rest at the destination, their rest upon return in Belgium, their holidays etc. Give or take 10, it'll be close to a hundred, depending the exact destination and the number of frequencies to it.
FWIW, they are hiring 240 people this year: are they indeed adding hundreds of planes then?
Not working in the industry indeed, but you sir are posting some really strange comments as of lately, which are a bit too obviously wrong to go unnoticed even to an outsider.
Last edited by Inquirer on 22 Apr 2016, 12:54, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Lufthansa to decide on 27 April whether to take over all of Brussels Airlines
You are not far. It's 80.sean1982 wrote:What? Bru.Air employs more than 800 people on the ground. (office or ground doesn't matter. Everything can and will be contracted out. It's waaaaaay cheaper in an model like Eurowings)
how many crew for 1 A330? 100? Please
But let's all wait a few more days to see what LH is exactly planning.
It's maybe best for SN to focus on a complete return of operations and getting people flying back to BRU. Instead of using their energy in negotiating a full take over by LH...
So let's wait with the Apocalypse Now stories for the moment
And indeed like Inquirer stated, SN is (still) hiring over 200 people this year.
Re: Lufthansa to decide on 27 April whether to take over all of Brussels Airlines
Thank you ITR.
so one needs to hire 80 people for each A330 then, right?
Makes my point that if they'd become fully Eurowings and every single office job moves to wherever in Germany (something which isn't likely in full), by their own annual statement, just 2 additional A330s would already make good for the direct job loss, not to mention the thousands of indirect jobs created (you know, the famous figure often quoted by airlines failing to create local employment themselves).
You really can't have 2 different opinions to the matter depending the airline, Sean... or yes, YOU can.
so one needs to hire 80 people for each A330 then, right?
Makes my point that if they'd become fully Eurowings and every single office job moves to wherever in Germany (something which isn't likely in full), by their own annual statement, just 2 additional A330s would already make good for the direct job loss, not to mention the thousands of indirect jobs created (you know, the famous figure often quoted by airlines failing to create local employment themselves).
You really can't have 2 different opinions to the matter depending the airline, Sean... or yes, YOU can.
Re: Lufthansa to decide on 27 April whether to take over all of Brussels Airlines
I dont ... Have I ever stated that FR is creating as many jobs in Belgium as SN? No, not by far, but only because of the office jobs that SN has (and the additional support needed for new routes). If they get absorbed into EW, SN (which will not be called that way anymore) will be nothing more or less than a german FR, with the exact same job creation as FR per new route. I'm not the one who switches opinions every time the weather changes inquirer, as I have pointed out to you in several posts.Inquirer wrote:Thank you ITR.
so one needs to hire 80 people for each A330 then, right?
Makes my point that if they'd become fully Eurowings and every single office job moves to wherever in Germany (something which isn't likely in full), by their own annual statement, just 2 additional A330s would already make good for the direct job loss, not to mention the thousands of indirect jobs created (you know, the famous figure often quoted by airlines failing to create local employment themselves).
You really can't have 2 different opinions to the matter depending the airline, Sean... or yes, YOU can.
We the exact same discussion a few months ago btw, where I said exactly the same
Sure, thats why BA hired me as a managerInquirer wrote: Not working in the industry indeed, but you sir are posting some really strange comments as of lately, which are a bit too obviously wrong to go unnoticed even to an outsider.
Not being personally attacked for once because I dont agree with your opinion would be nice!Re: Lufthansa to decide on 27 April whether to take over all of Brussels Airlines
As ITR just mentioned, it's not just the office jobs which create employment, it's even more so the intercontinental routes and the big planes used on them.
Lufthansa is said to have very big plans with Eurowings, also on the intercontinental front.
One of their biggest problems with it however is that they just don't have a really suitable home for it where they can benefit from both ample feed (a must for these kind of long flights) while staying away from FRA or MUC. In this context, BRU is a gift for them as it has all the facilities, the spare capacity and the feed (also from partners) and I am sure also the ambition to host an ambitious growth project like that of Eurowings. Think about Eurowings as a Norwegian competitor and I could easily see BRU become their LGW. now, THAT would really be good news, for most people not having any personal interest in a particular alternative airline nearby.
Lufthansa is said to have very big plans with Eurowings, also on the intercontinental front.
One of their biggest problems with it however is that they just don't have a really suitable home for it where they can benefit from both ample feed (a must for these kind of long flights) while staying away from FRA or MUC. In this context, BRU is a gift for them as it has all the facilities, the spare capacity and the feed (also from partners) and I am sure also the ambition to host an ambitious growth project like that of Eurowings. Think about Eurowings as a Norwegian competitor and I could easily see BRU become their LGW. now, THAT would really be good news, for most people not having any personal interest in a particular alternative airline nearby.
Re: Lufthansa to decide on 27 April whether to take over all of Brussels Airlines
That would be really good, but is faaaaaar away. Without any major orders for long haul aircraft for the EW group I dont see this happening in the next 5 years at least. As Norwegian has stated multiple times their model is only sustainable with new super efficient airplanes like the B787 or the A350, both of which are not readily available. Going into direct competition with them with older A330's is commiting suicide.Inquirer wrote:Think about Eurowings as a Norwegian competitor and I could easily see BRU become their LGW. now, THAT would really be good news, for most people not having any personal interest in a particular alternative airline nearby.
Re: Lufthansa to decide on 27 April whether to take over all of Brussels Airlines
There's room for a good clone, sitting just a little bit to the right of them on the product placement scale, often serving different places too, you know?
Just as there's a huge difference between a ryanair at the low end and a Swiss at the high end on Europe, there's a world of a difference between a Norwegian and a Lufthansa on intercontinental routes too.
On the European market, that world of a difference is successfully filled in by several airlines like easyjet, vueling, even Brussels airlines (all with their unique products setting them apart from each other), but on the intercontinental front, such isn't the case yet: they all look pretty much the same to most standard economy passengers, but one (Norwegian).
There's no reason it has to remain that way, forever, you know?
The idea there can only be one successful type of non-traditional economy product is wrong on Europe, even ryanair themselves now admit; it's equally wrong on intercontinental routes too, IMHO.
Just as there's a huge difference between a ryanair at the low end and a Swiss at the high end on Europe, there's a world of a difference between a Norwegian and a Lufthansa on intercontinental routes too.
On the European market, that world of a difference is successfully filled in by several airlines like easyjet, vueling, even Brussels airlines (all with their unique products setting them apart from each other), but on the intercontinental front, such isn't the case yet: they all look pretty much the same to most standard economy passengers, but one (Norwegian).
There's no reason it has to remain that way, forever, you know?
The idea there can only be one successful type of non-traditional economy product is wrong on Europe, even ryanair themselves now admit; it's equally wrong on intercontinental routes too, IMHO.
Re: Lufthansa to decide on 27 April whether to take over all of Brussels Airlines
I didnt say that there was no space for a clone, I said there are no aircraft available to do it with
Norwegian is the first LCC that targets O&D traffic on long haul travel and is of great concern to the big three as they are stealing the traffic that usually fill up the empty holes on the long haul. They cannot be challenged in similar set-ups without the correct aircraft. If you're going to compete A330/B767 to A350/B787 you will be pushed out of the market on cost in no time!
Norwegian is the first LCC that targets O&D traffic on long haul travel and is of great concern to the big three as they are stealing the traffic that usually fill up the empty holes on the long haul. They cannot be challenged in similar set-ups without the correct aircraft. If you're going to compete A330/B767 to A350/B787 you will be pushed out of the market on cost in no time!
Re: Lufthansa to decide on 27 April whether to take over all of Brussels Airlines
Pfff...
My guess is that negociations were ongoing, and probably going well between LH and SN to go for the complete take-over. It's not like LH can just say, ok, now we want the rest, here is the money, give us all you've got... That may have been possible when SN was losing €80m, but no more. SN is in power to negociate the best deal possible. Both to their stakeholders, as to their employees. They will want guarantees on a lot of issues, and right so. I mean, it is not because LH has the sole rights to buy at the moment, they have to sell. Not at any price anyway. So negociations were ongoing, and then... 22/3 happened. Needless to say priority shifted instantly. Especially for SN. Rebuilding the network, maintaining customer relations, stop the bleeding, and stuff like that are still every day issues at SN, and will be for the time to come. So to me it is quite obvious that the resumption of the negociations just haven't been possible yet, or at least not on the level to come to an agreement in time. So in everybody's best interest, take the extra year, and come to a good basis again. Drawbacks and benefits on both sides, but between trusted partners the best thing to do I think.
As for the possible rebranding...
I am curious what that will be... On Europe that might not be that big of a deal. Though I still suspect SN will remain a seperate entity. With own aircraft, staf and (belgian) AOC. So SN code will remain I think.
For Africa, rebranding is a risky move... SN has for years lived on the reputation of Sabena. And now they have finally esteblished their own name in the continent thanks to the continued ops through the ebola crisis and a lot of other projects. Do you want to throw that name out now? And don't you want a clear connection between the SN brand, and the connecting european flights...? I know that is all a matter of marketing, but I am curious what it will be. Needless to say I would like to see the Brussels Airlines brand live on in its entirity...
My guess is that negociations were ongoing, and probably going well between LH and SN to go for the complete take-over. It's not like LH can just say, ok, now we want the rest, here is the money, give us all you've got... That may have been possible when SN was losing €80m, but no more. SN is in power to negociate the best deal possible. Both to their stakeholders, as to their employees. They will want guarantees on a lot of issues, and right so. I mean, it is not because LH has the sole rights to buy at the moment, they have to sell. Not at any price anyway. So negociations were ongoing, and then... 22/3 happened. Needless to say priority shifted instantly. Especially for SN. Rebuilding the network, maintaining customer relations, stop the bleeding, and stuff like that are still every day issues at SN, and will be for the time to come. So to me it is quite obvious that the resumption of the negociations just haven't been possible yet, or at least not on the level to come to an agreement in time. So in everybody's best interest, take the extra year, and come to a good basis again. Drawbacks and benefits on both sides, but between trusted partners the best thing to do I think.
As for the possible rebranding...
I am curious what that will be... On Europe that might not be that big of a deal. Though I still suspect SN will remain a seperate entity. With own aircraft, staf and (belgian) AOC. So SN code will remain I think.
For Africa, rebranding is a risky move... SN has for years lived on the reputation of Sabena. And now they have finally esteblished their own name in the continent thanks to the continued ops through the ebola crisis and a lot of other projects. Do you want to throw that name out now? And don't you want a clear connection between the SN brand, and the connecting european flights...? I know that is all a matter of marketing, but I am curious what it will be. Needless to say I would like to see the Brussels Airlines brand live on in its entirity...
Re: Lufthansa to decide on 27 April whether to take over all of Brussels Airlines
I hope it never goes through, this acquisition. SN has no added value to the LH group, but the Germans absolutely wanted no OW hub in their backyard, hence taking over SN and thus prevent BRU from turning into a OW hub, at only a few hundred km's of FRA...
Re: Lufthansa to decide on 27 April whether to take over all of Brussels Airlines
They dont really have a choice do they? Unless they can find a partner who wants to buy them out of their financial commitments to the LH group.Conti764 wrote:I hope it never goes through, this acquisition. SN has no added value to the LH group, but the Germans absolutely wanted no OW hub in their backyard, hence taking over SN and thus prevent BRU from turning into a OW hub, at only a few hundred km's of FRA...
Re: Lufthansa to decide on 27 April whether to take over all of Brussels Airlines
I don't think so. LH holds the option to buy, SN can't refuse nor negotiate.RTM wrote:Pfff...
My guess is that negociations were ongoing, and probably going well between LH and SN to go for the complete take-over. It's not like LH can just say, ok, now we want the rest, here is the money, give us all you've got... That may have been possible when SN was losing €80m, but no more. SN is in power to negociate the best deal possible. Both to their stakeholders, as to their employees. They will want guarantees on a lot of issues, and right so. I mean, it is not because LH has the sole rights to buy at the moment, they have to sell. Not at any price anyway.
As far as I remember there is a formula in the agreement to determine the price of the remaining 55%.