Brussels Airlines in 2024

[Atlantis]

I totally agree with that. A220 will be necessary on a lot of destinations.
But..; the problem is still how SN is considered in STAR.
Coming back BKK-MUC yesterday A388 overbooked in any classes.
Try to book BRU-BKK on SN and Austrian Website.... two different prices
If SN give a price ..... (still running after 5 min and tried twice, it's always 10-15% cheaper on OS Web site....
Nothing new, no further comments needed....

I agree. But maybe not how SN is considered in Star but how they are considered in the LH group

[rwandan-flyer]

And we talk about Cityjet CRJ1000 jets.
Not A320.

The strategy is all A320.
CRJ May have been a feeling consideration and didn't worked out.
Or, they can earn in wetlease more being located in MUC - the 380 are back and need to be filled.

From a group prospective it may be the better economical decision.

So no inconsistency, but prioritisation in a year with constraints in the fleet due to BEO engine issues.

Really the worst strategy. You need much smaller aircraft to feed your hub. The A220 would be a perfect plane for that.

If only A320, even they are economical, you will not make profit when the LF will be less then half on certain routes. Certain of the current dropped destinations were feeder flights. For even extra frequencies during the day the A320 will be too big.

Look at KLM, AF, etc who has a Subfleet of smaller aircraft to feed their hub.

As said, this is the worst strategy. 2 types of aircraft in the fleet, dropping feeder flights, on this way the marketshare of SN will be never high.

Also each one or two years another CEO is not helping them bcs the long term vision is missing. Each new CEO has a different opinion.
Stability, trust and long term vision is needed

If you want to operate smaller aircraft you have to do like KLM, Finnair, Aer Lingus, Air France, British Airways, Iberia and TAP Air Portugal. To get your own regional brand affiliated to your parent company.

KLM has KLM City Hopper, Air France has Air France HOP, Aer Lingus has Aer Lingus Regional, Finnair has Nordic Regional Airlines, Iberia has Air Nostrum, TAP Air Portugal has TAP Express,....

But you have to look their network.

Either they have a big domestic network (from the capital or either between 2 cities in the country) and some destinations can't be served only with Airbus (Finnair, Iberia).

Either, they serve lots of destinations in some country (main and secondaries cities) from their main hubs (KLM and Air France) because the demand is bigger from ANS and CDG (big competitors for Brussels Aiport). KLM serves almost 20 in UK, AF serves 9 dest in GER,....

Either in some parts of their network altough the demand is not sufficient to use an Airbus, the plane remains the fastest means of transport. Most of Aer Lingus Regional flights are operated between UK and Ireland and North Ireland from Belfast City, Dublin and Cork. T

But one thing most of these regional brand were former independent airlines which were then acquired by major airlines Here are some examples:

Aer Lingus Regional was launched after Aer Lingus has acquired Aer Aran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aer_Lingus_Regional
HOP was previously Airlinair, Brit Air and Regional Airlines. These 3 airlines have started as independent airlines before to join Air France Group in 1990s.
Air Nostrum created in 1994 started to work with Iberia from 1997 http://www.airnostrum.es/page.asp?ruta= ... lo=History
TAP Express former name is Portugalia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portug%C3%A1lia_Airlines

Probably someone will talk about Swiss which operates A220. But many Swiss Airlines regional flights are also operated by Helvetic Embraer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helvetic_Airways


All these airlines have also bigger long haul network than SN, in terms of destinations and frequencies. And even if Aer Lingus serves only North America, the demand is bigger than to Africa (if we want to compare with SN long haul network). So they operarte many flights to feed their flights.

All situation can't be the same, depending the market demand. I m not saying that regional flights with SN couldn't work, but all latest attemtps have failed (FlyBe, Cityjet). It seems that it very hard to break even. From Charleroi, You have also Ryanair which serves many secondaries and small cities in Europe which is probably enough for the point to point demand. Outside Africa, Brussels Airlines has not many things to offer to passengers for its long haul network.

Note that The A220 at Air France replaces the A318 and A319 not the regional fleet. Currently AF has not regional aircraft in order. And B Smith has reduced capacities of Air France HOP (all CRJs left the airline). About KLM, the E2 replaces mainly the B737-700.

[Miqvell]

Looks like they've made their summer network official and yes, only 2 'new' destinations:




Source : FlightLevel

[oldblueeyes]

And we talk about Cityjet CRJ1000 jets.
Not A320.

The strategy is all A320.
CRJ May have been a feeling consideration and didn't worked out.
Or, they can earn in wetlease more being located in MUC - the 380 are back and need to be filled.

From a group prospective it may be the better economical decision.

So no inconsistency, but prioritisation in a year with constraints in the fleet due to BEO engine issues.

Really the worst strategy. You need much smaller aircraft to feed your hub. The A220 would be a perfect plane for that.

If only A320, even they are economical, you will not make profit when the LF will be less then half on certain routes. Certain of the current dropped destinations were feeder flights. For even extra frequencies during the day the A320 will be too big.

Look at KLM, AF, etc who has a Subfleet of smaller aircraft to feed their hub.

As said, this is the worst strategy. 2 types of aircraft in the fleet, dropping feeder flights, on this way the marketshare of SN will be never high.

Also each one or two years another CEO is not helping them bcs the long term vision is missing. Each new CEO has a different opinion.
Stability, trust and long term vision is needed

We agree to disagree, because i see the group and you see only the tiny local part.

So let's see top down.

Brussels is a lower profile brand of the group. Not more, not less.
Together with Austrian, we speak about a 2nd tier hub brand, with a clear positioning:
- CEO's are talent starting in executive roles and preparing for more mature mandates
- fleet is simplyfied to lew aircraft families and optimized for home bases with strong LCC presence
- feeder role dedicated to own minor long haul fleet only - central European hub role is MUC, major premium hubs are ZRH and FRA additionally

So no, there is no need to fly across Europe with hub and spoke via BRU, that place is taken in the group by MUC where there will be a next upgauging to A220.

So the future is pretty clear : Brussels will fly whatever makes economically sense with A320, it will stay in it's niche for Africa and the overall product is targeted to be more budget vs LH and Swiss as major brands.

It is consistent, even if it does not match local aspirations and emotions. But them can be served brilliantly by letting Air Belgium try and fail.

[Atlantis]

The strategy is all A320.
CRJ May have been a feeling consideration and didn't worked out.
Or, they can earn in wetlease more being located in MUC - the 380 are back and need to be filled.

From a group prospective it may be the better economical decision.

So no inconsistency, but prioritisation in a year with constraints in the fleet due to BEO engine issues.

Really the worst strategy. You need much smaller aircraft to feed your hub. The A220 would be a perfect plane for that.

If only A320, even they are economical, you will not make profit when the LF will be less then half on certain routes. Certain of the current dropped destinations were feeder flights. For even extra frequencies during the day the A320 will be too big.

Look at KLM, AF, etc who has a Subfleet of smaller aircraft to feed their hub.

As said, this is the worst strategy. 2 types of aircraft in the fleet, dropping feeder flights, on this way the marketshare of SN will be never high.

Also each one or two years another CEO is not helping them bcs the long term vision is missing. Each new CEO has a different opinion.
Stability, trust and long term vision is needed

If you want to operate smaller aircraft you have to do like KLM, Finnair, Aer Lingus, Air France, British Airways, Iberia and TAP Air Portugal. To get your own regional brand affiliated to your parent company.

KLM has KLM City Hopper, Air France has Air France HOP, Aer Lingus has Aer Lingus Regional, Finnair has Nordic Regional Airlines, Iberia has Air Nostrum, TAP Air Portugal has TAP Express,....

But you have to look their network.

Either they have a big domestic network (from the capital or either between 2 cities in the country) and some destinations can't be served only with Airbus (Finnair, Iberia).

Either, they serve lots of destinations in some country (main and secondaries cities) from their main hubs (KLM and Air France) because the demand is bigger from ANS and CDG (big competitors for Brussels Aiport). KLM serves almost 20 in UK, AF serves 9 dest in GER,....

Either in some parts of their network altough the demand is not sufficient to use an Airbus, the plane remains the fastest means of transport. Most of Aer Lingus Regional flights are operated between UK and Ireland and North Ireland from Belfast City, Dublin and Cork. T

But one thing most of these regional brand were former independent airlines which were then acquired by major airlines Here are some examples:

Aer Lingus Regional was launched after Aer Lingus has acquired Aer Aran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aer_Lingus_Regional
HOP was previously Airlinair, Brit Air and Regional Airlines. These 3 airlines have started as independent airlines before to join Air France Group in 1990s.
Air Nostrum created in 1994 started to work with Iberia from 1997 http://www.airnostrum.es/page.asp?ruta= ... lo=History
TAP Express former name is Portugalia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portug%C3%A1lia_Airlines

Probably someone will talk about Swiss which operates A220. But many Swiss Airlines regional flights are also operated by Helvetic Embraer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helvetic_Airways


All these airlines have also bigger long haul network than SN, in terms of destinations and frequencies. And even if Aer Lingus serves only North America, the demand is bigger than to Africa (if we want to compare with SN long haul network). So they operarte many flights to feed their flights.

All situation can't be the same, depending the market demand. I m not saying that regional flights with SN couldn't work, but all latest attemtps have failed (FlyBe, Cityjet). It seems that it very hard to break even. From Charleroi, You have also Ryanair which serves many secondaries and small cities in Europe which is probably enough for the point to point demand. Outside Africa, Brussels Airlines has not many things to offer to passengers for its long haul network.

Note that The A220 at Air France replaces the A318 and A319 not the regional fleet. Currently AF has not regional aircraft in order. And B Smith has reduced capacities of Air France HOP (all CRJs left the airline). About KLM, the E2 replaces mainly the B737-700.

SN has indeed less long haul destinations....but the long haul planes are not full.
It means that something is not working properly.

BTW, leisure destinations are not only pure leisure, from certain of them there are quite a lot of transfer pax on.

Only 2 new destinations in the year where aviation will florisch again, is a missed opportunity.

SN is a great company with wonderfull employees but the management is making mistakes to make them more solid for the future.
The foreign companies are opening more destinations than the home carrier.

[Atlantis]

The strategy is all A320.
CRJ May have been a feeling consideration and didn't worked out.
Or, they can earn in wetlease more being located in MUC - the 380 are back and need to be filled.

From a group prospective it may be the better economical decision.

So no inconsistency, but prioritisation in a year with constraints in the fleet due to BEO engine issues.

Really the worst strategy. You need much smaller aircraft to feed your hub. The A220 would be a perfect plane for that.

If only A320, even they are economical, you will not make profit when the LF will be less then half on certain routes. Certain of the current dropped destinations were feeder flights. For even extra frequencies during the day the A320 will be too big.

Look at KLM, AF, etc who has a Subfleet of smaller aircraft to feed their hub.

As said, this is the worst strategy. 2 types of aircraft in the fleet, dropping feeder flights, on this way the marketshare of SN will be never high.

Also each one or two years another CEO is not helping them bcs the long term vision is missing. Each new CEO has a different opinion.
Stability, trust and long term vision is needed

We agree to disagree, because i see the group and you see only the tiny local part.

So let's see top down.

Brussels is a lower profile brand of the group. Not more, not less.
Together with Austrian, we speak about a 2nd tier hub brand, with a clear positioning:
- CEO's are talent starting in executive roles and preparing for more mature mandates
- fleet is simplyfied to lew aircraft families and optimized for home bases with strong LCC presence
- feeder role dedicated to own minor long haul fleet only - central European hub role is MUC, major premium hubs are ZRH and FRA additionally

So no, there is no need to fly across Europe with hub and spoke via BRU, that place is taken in the group by MUC where there will be a next upgauging to A220.

So the future is pretty clear : Brussels will fly whatever makes economically sense with A320, it will stay in it's niche for Africa and the overall product is targeted to be more budget vs LH and Swiss as major brands.

It is consistent, even if it does not match local aspirations and emotions. But them can be served brilliantly by letting Air Belgium try and fail.

We agree or disagree but that's why it is interesting to have this conversation.

At least we agree that SN is seen as the secondary in the group.
But in case of OS they are receiving new B787-9. OK, their current long haul fleet starts to be very old and was needed to be replaced. But netto, they will receive more LH than current.

[JOVAN2]

Probably within this year Dorothea will also be replaced by yet another CEO.
He or She will also make nice interviews (more growth, more destinations, more frequencies etc.. like Dorothea said in Luchtvaartnieuws interview).

Opposite will happen and foreign companies will continue to take more market share.

Sad to see that we have an airline (flag carrier ?)with no clear strategy.

How much is SN's market share now ? How much will it be over 2024 ?

[crew1990]

SN has indeed less long haul destinations....but the long haul planes are not full.

Fun fact: Swiss has 22 long haul destination this summer, Austrian has 13 long haul destination. Brussels Airlines 20, of course most of them are in triangular flight.

BTW, leisure destinations are not only pure leisure, from certain of them there are quite a lot of transfer pax on.

Indeed mainly north-south like connecting pax from sweeden, norway etc connecting to Canarys island, but not only.

[oldblueeyes]

Probably within this year Dorothea will also be replaced by yet another CEO.
He or She will also make nice interviews (more growth, more destinations, more frequencies etc.. like Dorothea said in Luchtvaartnieuws interview).

Opposite will happen and foreign companies will continue to take more market share.

Sad to see that we have an airline (flag carrier ?)with no clear strategy.

How much is SN's market share now ? How much will it be over 2024 ?

What if we stick to the facts?

2023
- 1 additional A319 vs 1 retired A319
- 3 A319 leases prolongued
- 2 additional A320CEO
- 2 new A320 NEO

2024
- 3 new A320 NEO vs 1 retired A319 and 2 retired A320 CEO
- 2 A333

This is net growth for the local brand.

And for the group growth does not necessarily needs to be in a certain market.

If more profitable, they will put more NEO's to Eurowings Europe, or more A320CEO's to Edelweiss and so on and so on.

There is a constant flow of new A320 NEO's delivered and as one can see as well, opening for spot businesses if they have a solid business case and fit such as the 789 for Austrian.

[fcw]

If you want to operate smaller aircraft you have to do like KLM, Finnair, Aer Lingus, Air France, British Airways, Iberia and TAP Air Portugal. To get your own regional brand affiliated to your parent company.

KLM has KLM City Hopper, Air France has Air France HOP, Aer Lingus has Aer Lingus Regional, Finnair has Nordic Regional Airlines, Iberia has Air Nostrum, TAP Air Portugal has TAP Express,....

The main/only reason to have a regional brand is to reduce labour cost. SN staff is already working for regional salaries, so creating a new brand is useless.

[sn26567]

If Lufthansa is getting 5 CRJ1000s on wet-lease from CityJet and is building a City Airlines A220 fleet based in Munich, it shows that, in the LH Group, small planes can be introduced where there is demand. There is also demand in Brussels for flights to secondary cities whose list was mentioned in a previous post. Why doesn't SN get a similar treatment as LH?

[DeltaWiskey]

The main reason of the CityJet wetleases going feom SN to LH is the grounding of many A320 neo with PW engines.
Originally it was indeed the plan to also have cityet wetleases for SN in S24 (they make profits), but it was reshuffled to LH because they will have over 20 a320 grounded due to the engine issues this summer.
Globally, and also most certainly in Europe, there is a shortage of availibility in narrowbody aircraft due to this PW issue. This also affects the wet lease market, it is completely ‘sold out’ for S24. As an airline group you also have to decide where to put uour reessources to make the highest profts.

[fcw]

The main reason of the CityJet wetleases going feom SN to LH is the grounding of many A320 neo with PW engines.
Originally it was indeed the plan to also have cityet wetleases for SN in S24 (they make profits), but it was reshuffled to LH because they will have over 20 a320 grounded due to the engine issues this summer.
Globally, and also most certainly in Europe, there is a shortage of availibility in narrowbody aircraft due to this PW issue. This also affects the wet lease market, it is completely ‘sold out’ for S24. As an airline group you also have to decide where to put uour reessources to make the highest profts.

There are, indeed, significant delivery delays for PW powered A320s, but that is nothing new, it has been like that for the last 5 years!

[brabel]

Looks like they've made their summer network official and yes, only 2 'new' destinations:




Source : FlightLevel

Birmingham still on that map...

[JOVAN2]

Gouverner (&manager) c'est prévoir.

[Lux_avi]

Why doesn't SN get a similar treatment as LH?

What treatment are you talking about?

LH is there to make money, it's all about business, not about treatments.
They're smart enough to know what's good or bad for SN.

Lumumba with his turbuprops, JOVAN2 with his network to all over Asia & the US, you with a small subfleet to secondary cities, don't you think LH has a bigger picture of what they need to do with SN than (very sorry to say, with all my respect...) amateur ideas?

Unlike other European countries, Belgium still has some sort of a home carrier and should be proud to see what SN is nowadays in the current context/market, which not many people seem to understand here.

Switzerland, Germany, and Austria cannot be compared with Belgium. That's perhaps the first step towards accepting the fact that SN is not similar to the other airlines of the group...

[rwandan-flyer]

Agree with Lux Avi. I think that if SN was with IAG or AF KLM the situation would be probably the same that with Lufthansa : the market demand

They are not even great synergies between SN and Turkish Airlines / Egytpair / Ethiopian Airlines to and from Africa while they are in the same alliance (i don't think it's a Lufthansa fault). We are far away from what Air France KLM / Kenya Airways or Royal Air Maroc / Qatar Airways / British Airways are doing in Africa.

While you can do easly CDG AMS KGL NBO AMS CDG (AF KLM Kenya Airways) it's probaly harder to make BRU CDG IST KGL BRU (TK & SN)

I m focusing there on trip between Europe and Africa (North America not included)

[JOVAN2]

I am sure Kl, AF, FR find this good Belgian joke.
How to drain Hundreds of Thousands.of PAX from/to BRU .
Actually its a Getman joke.
LH is doing their very best to chase customers away. Instead of using the BRU hub to steal customers from NL and France.

Yeah, good German joke.

[oldblueeyes]

Bullshit at its best.

All French cities are connected to the major hubs - some of them just seasonal, as real demand from French provinces is not as big as you may assume.
Furthermore LH has a JV with United.. so they share profits and cost, even pax are starting in AMS.

Sabena went bankrupt because they were thinking to big vs reality. Same syndrom is your assumption.

Brussels needs to earn money - which they are not so good currently in the the whole LH universe. That's what matters. And this money needs to be earned with the local pax. Hub and spoke in the group is for others - this is the brutal reality of being just a piece of the puzzle.

[JOVAN2]

Wizzair 5 flights a week from BRU in summer season.
700 to 800 PAX a week, each direction offered.

Or will they fly via Hellhole FRA ?