Brussels Airlines in 2024

[lumumba]

Not really. That's what lots of people who don't know what they are talking about think, but it's mostly incorrect.
There is a reason why turboprops are disappearing, in Europe at least.

There are not disappearing but it's a niche market!
And so you are saying that there are not cheaper to use on short flights?

Niche market yes, but they are also disappearing.
Lots of airlines got rid of their turboprops in the past few years. And others are busy in the process...

The ATR is not even worth talking about, and the Q400 is terribly unreliable (-> very often AOG). Sure a low fuel burn, but huge maintenance costs come with it as well.

I don't know if there are unreliable but in the structure of the bigger airlines they don't fit because they have big slots problems and can't use them but the strength of Brussels Airport here is that there are no problem with slots and still a variety of transfer destinations and like sn26567 said in a comfortable airport.

[Atlantis]

There are not disappearing but it's a niche market!
And so you are saying that there are not cheaper to use on short flights?

Niche market yes, but they are also disappearing.
Lots of airlines got rid of their turboprops in the past few years. And others are busy in the process...

The ATR is not even worth talking about, and the Q400 is terribly unreliable (-> very often AOG). Sure a low fuel burn, but huge maintenance costs come with it as well.

I don't know if there are unreliable but in the structure of the bigger airlines they don't fit because they have big slots problems and can't use them but the strength of Brussels Airport here is that there are no problem with slots and still a variety of transfer destinations and like sn26567 said in a comfortable airport.

There are a lot of restrictions and one of them are noise restrictions. Second, turboprop is getting out of the European market bcs of expensive, available spare parts and noise restrictions. On the market are now much better alternatives like the A220 and Embraer, all types according to your need.

Third is probability of those routes. BA, in the past Virgin Express, Brussels Airlines and maybe even Ryanair, and several other, in meantime bankrupt British carriers did it but they all stopped it.

You wrote also that the government should step in in BRU and SN. From which planet do you come? The current minister of mobility hate BRU, the own ombudsman has more critics towards BRU than that he should protect it. Governments are now under such pressure of pressure groups that it would political suicide for them and a disaster for the airport itself.

That's why I showed you the difference between the state owned Sabena and the private SN and the difference for the airport.

Don't get me wrong, there are many niche markets, but you need the sources to do it. And like I wrote yesterday, some will come back.

[lumumba]

Niche market yes, but they are also disappearing.
Lots of airlines got rid of their turboprops in the past few years. And others are busy in the process...

The ATR is not even worth talking about, and the Q400 is terribly unreliable (-> very often AOG). Sure a low fuel burn, but huge maintenance costs come with it as well.

I don't know if there are unreliable but in the structure of the bigger airlines they don't fit because they have big slots problems and can't use them but the strength of Brussels Airport here is that there are no problem with slots and still a variety of transfer destinations and like sn26567 said in a comfortable airport.

There are a lot of restrictions and one of them are noise restrictions. Second, turboprop is getting out of the European market bcs of expensive, available spare parts and noise restrictions. On the market are now much better alternatives like the A220 and Embraer, all types according to your need.

Third is probability of those routes. BA, in the past Virgin Express, Brussels Airlines and maybe even Ryanair, and several other, in meantime bankrupt British carriers did it but they all stopped it.

You wrote also that the government should step in in BRU and SN. From which planet do you come? The current minister of mobility hate BRU, the own ombudsman has more critics towards BRU than that he should protect it. Governments are now under such pressure of pressure groups that it would political suicide for them and a disaster for the airport itself.

That's why I showed you the difference between the state owned Sabena and the private SN and the difference for the airport.

Don't get me wrong, there are many niche markets, but you need the sources to do it. And like I wrote yesterday, some will come back.

Turboprops make very less noise than jets!!!!
And no they need to use turboprops for those routes in my opinion because they are much less expensive and also carry less passengers these are good options for those tiny routes.

[Atlantis]

I don't know if there are unreliable but in the structure of the bigger airlines they don't fit because they have big slots problems and can't use them but the strength of Brussels Airport here is that there are no problem with slots and still a variety of transfer destinations and like sn26567 said in a comfortable airport.

There are a lot of restrictions and one of them are noise restrictions. Second, turboprop is getting out of the European market bcs of expensive, available spare parts and noise restrictions. On the market are now much better alternatives like the A220 and Embraer, all types according to your need.

Third is probability of those routes. BA, in the past Virgin Express, Brussels Airlines and maybe even Ryanair, and several other, in meantime bankrupt British carriers did it but they all stopped it.

You wrote also that the government should step in in BRU and SN. From which planet do you come? The current minister of mobility hate BRU, the own ombudsman has more critics towards BRU than that he should protect it. Governments are now under such pressure of pressure groups that it would political suicide for them and a disaster for the airport itself.

That's why I showed you the difference between the state owned Sabena and the private SN and the difference for the airport.

Don't get me wrong, there are many niche markets, but you need the sources to do it. And like I wrote yesterday, some will come back.

Turboprops make very less noise than jets!!!!
And no they need to use turboprops for those routes in my opinion because they are much less expensive and also carry less passengers these are good options for those tiny routes.

If you think so, fine by me. I will not argue bcs it will not bring anything

[EBKT]

A destination we don’t talk too much on this forum is perhaps Helsinki. What could be the reason SN is not flying to this European capital city? I know it’s not a star airport but traffic, yields and transfer possibilities are not high enough to fly Helsinki for SN? Sometimes hard to understand to me, this is not 2nd city like Billund, not highly competitive route like Bucharest or smaller capital city such as eg Sofia. Anyone can explain?

[luchtzak]

A destination we don’t talk too much on this forum is perhaps Helsinki. What could be the reason SN is not flying to this European capital city? I know it’s not a star airport but traffic, yields and transfer possibilities are not high enough to fly Helsinki for SN? Sometimes hard to understand to me, this is not 2nd city like Billund, not highly competitive route like Bucharest or smaller capital city such as eg Sofia. Anyone can explain?

- Direct competition with Finnair, which will carry a mix of transfer and A-B passengers.
- Transfer passengers will pay more as Finnair has a niche towards Asia.
- Longer flight, up/down, means you have to fly a reasonable amount of passenger load.
- I guess yields would be low/not sufficient to be profitable.

[Atlantis]

A destination we don’t talk too much on this forum is perhaps Helsinki. What could be the reason SN is not flying to this European capital city? I know it’s not a star airport but traffic, yields and transfer possibilities are not high enough to fly Helsinki for SN? Sometimes hard to understand to me, this is not 2nd city like Billund, not highly competitive route like Bucharest or smaller capital city such as eg Sofia. Anyone can explain?

SN lost this destination as a direct consequence after the take over by LH. Helsinki is now reachable via FRA if you want to fly via the Star group.

It was a pity to lose it as quite some travel agencies used those flights of SN via Helsinki to fly further to Asia. It was a very popular route. Now Finnair has the monopoly

[Airbus330lover]

A destination we don’t talk too much on this forum is perhaps Helsinki. What could be the reason SN is not flying to this European capital city? I know it’s not a star airport but traffic, yields and transfer possibilities are not high enough to fly Helsinki for SN? Sometimes hard to understand to me, this is not 2nd city like Billund, not highly competitive route like Bucharest or smaller capital city such as eg Sofia. Anyone can explain?

SN lost this destination as a direct consequence after the take over by LH. Helsinki is now reachable via FRA if you want to fly via the Star group.

It was a pity to lose it as quite some travel agencies used those flights of SN via Helsinki to fly further to Asia. It was a very popular route. Now Finnair has the monopoly

Monopoly and incredible high fares due to this

[Lux_avi]

Turboprops make very less noise than jets!!!!
And no they need to use turboprops for those routes in my opinion because they are much less expensive and also carry less passengers these are good options for those tiny routes.

That's also incorrect. Unless you compare a Q400 with a 747-200, you are wrong.
All noise data is available online on the EASA website.

The idea here is not to argue with you (it would be a waste of time) but rather to inform other forum members correctly.

[ZavCity]

I live around the airport and I can asure you that some turboprops are very noisy!

[lumumba]

Turboprops make very less noise than jets!!!!
And no they need to use turboprops for those routes in my opinion because they are much less expensive and also carry less passengers these are good options for those tiny routes.

That's also incorrect. Unless you compare a Q400 with a 747-200, you are wrong.
All noise data is available online on the EASA website.

The idea here is not to argue with you (it would be a waste of time) but rather to inform other forum members correctly.

I just had a look at the EASA and yes they are indeed quieter especially if you compare before the NEO for the jets(a320 737 etc) it's about 90 to 95 decibel and fot the NEO it's about 87 for the Dash 8 it's between 80 to 85 knowing that with 3 decibels you double the noise.


The idea here is not to argue with you (it would be a waste of time) but rather to inform other forum members correctly.

You can also have a look here:

https://skyaviationholdings.com/jet-vs- ... ve%20areas.

But that was not my point my point was that you can use them at Brussels Airport for the reasons I mentioned!

[longwings]

Does not explain why not take a bigger part of the market if it exist...
Barcelona is a good example why not fly more if there is the potential to do so!

Short answer, finite resources.
Planes = more frequencies to BCN means less frequencies elsewhere, what city would you downgrade, and why?
Staff = they have a hard time getting enough crew to staff their current program, sure they could offer better conditions, which would increase costs, which would result in higher fares, which would result in less demand...
Funds = they can't find enough Euros under the sofa to buy more planes!

[longwings]

Lufthansa Group will invest a total of 2.5 billion euros between now and 2025 in improving the comfort of its most expensive classes. This involves not only replacing business-class seats on aircraft but also investing in lounges at home airports, notably the two business lounges at Brussels Airport.

Just so I am sure what the joke is, is Lufthansa finally planning to roll out its "new business class" first announced in 2017 that they have managed to install in exactly... 0 aircraft since? Or is this the announcement of the "new new business class" that will equip their brand-new A360s in 2032? Or is it 2033?

Lufthansa's business class has become a notorious joke, and this announcement does not help. Maybe consider having a business class lounge for intercontinental flights at BRU before remodeling the other two.

Seriously, it looks like the era of under-investment is finally over. Lufthansa has now one of the worst business-class products on the ground and in the air among the airlines it competes with in North America, Europe, and Asia. Their only saving grace is the service is top-notch still.

[lumumba]

Does not explain why not take a bigger part of the market if it exist...
Barcelona is a good example why not fly more if there is the potential to do so!

Short answer, finite resources.
Planes = more frequencies to BCN means less frequencies elsewhere, what city would you downgrade, and why?
Staff = they have a hard time getting enough crew to staff their current program, sure they could offer better conditions, which would increase costs, which would result in higher fares, which would result in less demand...
Funds = they can't find enough Euros under the sofa to buy more planes!

Again these are facts but I want answers why they are not investing more if there is a market,I will not go over my arguments again!

For the staff problem no need to offer better conditions you can find the people you need.

[Lux_avi]

problem no need to offer better conditions you can find the people you need.

[DannyVDB]

A destination we don’t talk too much on this forum is perhaps Helsinki. What could be the reason SN is not flying to this European capital city? I know it’s not a star airport but traffic, yields and transfer possibilities are not high enough to fly Helsinki for SN? Sometimes hard to understand to me, this is not 2nd city like Billund, not highly competitive route like Bucharest or smaller capital city such as eg Sofia. Anyone can explain?

And Dublin

[lumumba]

problem no need to offer better conditions you can find the people you need.

Don't take me wrong here if it's necessary they could for sure but this is another debate.

[fcw]

problem no need to offer better conditions you can find the people you need.

Don't take me wrong here if it's necessary they could for sure but this is another debate.

A friend was recently invited to a SN direct entry captain selection: out of the 5 candidates 3 made it to the second day, out of these three one said he’d only accept occasional contract work, the second one was awaiting a call to join Emirates and was there just in case that would go wrong, my friend got a job offer but will probably refuse because of a better offer elsewhere.

[HQ_BRU_Lover]

It's how the market works: these days companies don't have to choose much, it's a different story then 25 years ago.

[rwandan-flyer]

A destination we don’t talk too much on this forum is perhaps Helsinki. What could be the reason SN is not flying to this European capital city? I know it’s not a star airport but traffic, yields and transfer possibilities are not high enough to fly Helsinki for SN? Sometimes hard to understand to me, this is not 2nd city like Billund, not highly competitive route like Bucharest or smaller capital city such as eg Sofia. Anyone can explain?

SN lost this destination as a direct consequence after the take over by LH. Helsinki is now reachable via FRA if you want to fly via the Star group.

It was a pity to lose it as quite some travel agencies used those flights of SN via Helsinki to fly further to Asia. It was a very popular route. Now Finnair has the monopoly

Helsinki Hub has probably one of smallest network from Oneworld airlines with Amman, Casablanca and Colombo. Only Japan Airlines serve HEL and Vueling operates a seasonal service to Barcelona. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki_Airport

Iberia, Qatar Airways (replaced by Finnair) and British Airways ended to serve HEL during the covid. There is only one flight a day between Madrid and Helsinki. I can't see how SN can succeed.

Some airlines started to serve HEL since over 15 years. Most of them have closed flights (CSA, LOT, Austrian Airlines, Swiss, American Airlines and Qatar Airways)

AF resumed flights to HEL in 2021, 20 years after ended flights. But AF and Finnair have code share agreements since many years. Finnair serves CDG 4 times a day and AF serves HEL 2 times a day.

LH and KLM are the 2 others majors to serve HEL.

If we compare with others big airports in Nordics countries (Oslo, Copenhagen and Stockholm), Helsinki is a small market. That's the reason why, Finnair has started to operate a hub between Asia / N America and Europe, the point to point demand is probably too low to attract more airlines or enable to Finnair to have a huge network like KLM. Probably an increase of import demand during the winter to Laponia.

And from BRU you have Ryanair (ok from Charleroi) and Finnair which link Brussels and Helsinki, it's probably enough. Market between Africa and Finland is low, SN can't pick up huge trafic.