Brussels Airlines in 2024

[Atlantis]

But that's not an argument if there is a market they need to rent more planes...obviously!!!!

So obvious, I really wonder why SN never thought about that

Me too

I understand but the argument of Atlantis is not enough that's what I mean and I want to understand why Brussel Airlines is not taking a bigger part of the cake?

And why it is not enough? Bcs you and Jovan says so? The conditions were very clear from the beginning in the LH group, you have to make profit. It is discussable of course bcs with not enough sources its difficult to make big profit.

SN starts to do it good and they received 5 factory new A320neo's. This year still 2 extra A330.

But as said before, even we all would like, 60 or 70 aircraft we will not see today.

Your wish list is not this one of SN, luckily. They are growing and much more in the near future. Don't worry

[lumumba]

So obvious, I really wonder why SN never thought about that

Me too

I understand but the argument of Atlantis is not enough that's what I mean and I want to understand why Brussel Airlines is not taking a bigger part of the cake?

And why it is not enough? Bcs you and Jovan says so? The conditions were very clear from the beginning in the LH group, you have to make profit. It is discussable of course bcs with not enough sources its difficult to make big profit.

SN starts to do it good and they received 5 factory new A320neo's. This year still 2 extra A330.

But as said before, even we all would like, 60 or 70 aircraft we will not see today.

Your wish list is not this one of SN, luckily. They are growing and much more in the near future. Don't worry

Does not explain why not take a bigger part of the market if it exist...
Barcelona is a good example why not fly more if there is the potential to do so!
But it's the same for Faro,Lisbon etc...if there is profit to make no reason not to go for it for the same reason they only have a small market share at Brussels Airport.
Do you lose income and market share is going down know it's very difficult to win it back.
I want to understand that's all.

[rwandan-flyer]

I quite often suprised to see so many critics about Brussels Airlines. I don't think that there are so many critics in Finland about Finnair, in Ireland about Aer Lingus or in Portugal about TAP Air Portugal.


In 2000s, Finnair, Aer Lingus and TAP Air Portugal struggled and closed many routes. They have started to focus on niche markets :

USA for Aer Lingus, Asia for Finnair, Africa and USA for TAP Air Portugal. Aer Lingus has event left Oneworld. Like SN is doing with Africa and point to point market in Europe.

Finnair, Aer Lingus and TAP Air Portugal are now making profits despite covid and Russian overfly bans for Finnair.


Finland, Portugal, Ireland are not big countries, the size of the hub is the same that Brussels Airport. Dublin, Lisbon or Helsinki don't have a huge network from non European Airlines.

None US airline serve Helsinki. Lisbon is only served by LAM since few months and TAAG Angola from Sub-Saharan Africa. Egytpair is the only African airline to serve Dublin. None MEB3 (Emirates, Qatar and Etihad) serve Helsinki, and the flights from Far East are very limited from Dublin and Lisbon.

As so many people have already said, Brussels has a strong competition from Frankfurt (even if Brussels Airlines and LH are in the same alliance), Amsterdam, Paris CDG and London Heathrow. They are 4 biggest airport in Europe (excluding Istanbul) where are based the biggest airlines in Europe (excluding LCC) !!!)

People complain because Brussels Airlines doens't have a huhe network in USA or Phillipines Airlines (which has suspended all its routes to Europe) has not yet announced a route to Brussels.

Brussels is at its right place. They can't do better, they can only hope to have here or there a new route in Far East (SIN) or Middle East (FlyNas), in North American (Toronto) or Africa with Nairobi.

[lumumba]

I quite often suprised to see so many critics about Brussels Airlines. I don't think that there are so many critics in Finland about Finnair, in Ireland about Aer Lingus or in Portugal about TAP Air Portugal.


In 2000s, Finnair, Aer Lingus and TAP Air Portugal struggled and closed many routes. They have started to focus on niche markets :

USA for Aer Lingus, Asia for Finnair, Africa and USA for TAP Air Portugal. Aer Lingus has event left Oneworld. Like SN is doing with Africa and point to point market in Europe.

Finnair, Aer Lingus and TAP Air Portugal are now making profits despite covid and Russian overfly bans for Finnair.


Finland, Portugal, Ireland are not big countries, the size of the hub is the same that Brussels Airport. Dublin, Lisbon or Helsinki don't have a huge network from non European Airlines.

None US airline serve Helsinki. Lisbon is only served by LAM since few months and TAAG Angola from Sub-Saharan Africa. Egytpair is the only African airline to serve Dublin. None MEB3 (Emirates, Qatar and Etihad) serve Helsinki, and the flights from Far East are very limited from Dublin and Lisbon.

As so many people have already said, Brussels has a strong competition from Frankfurt (even if Brussels Airlines and LH are in the same alliance), Amsterdam, Paris CDG and London Heathrow. They are 4 biggest airport in Europe (excluding Istanbul) where are based the biggest airlines in Europe (excluding LCC) !!!)

People complain because Brussels Airlines doens't have a huhe network in USA or Phillipines Airlines (which has suspended all its routes to Europe) has not yet announced a route to Brussels.

Brussels is at its right place. They can't do better, they can only hope to have here or there a new route in Far East (SIN) or Middle East (FlyNas), in North American (Toronto) or Africa with Nairobi.

I really try to understand there is no critics here for my part I don't expect to receive any answers anyway the people at the helm of the airline who make the decisions will surely not read my post.

[rwandan-flyer]

I don't blame all critics, some are goods. I blame critics about the fact Brussels Airlines should be a big airline with a huge network around the world (North America, South America and Asia), like AF, KLM or Bitish Airways.

The reality is the market (buisness, Visiting friends and relatives and leisure). No demand, no route. Maybe in 5 years, demand to North America will be bigger and more routes will open. Same thing for Asia. Brussels Airlines will have be able to open more routes. But right now step by step. More A330s and brand new A320Neo's.

You can grow quickly in aviation, but the downfall can be also very hard. People with the harshest criticism will be the first to blame again SN management if the airline decides to grow too fast and then collapse.

[Atlantis]

Let me give you some facts between the old Sabena and Brussels Airlines. Just to make you clear how a very small Brussels airlines is doing much better than the much bigger former state owned Sabena.

Sabena had a fleet of around 100 planes
Brussels airlines has a fleet of 44 planes

Sabena was flying to 33 destinations in Europe, 17 in Africa, 6 in The States and 4 in Asia
The small Brussels airlines is flying to 45 destinations in Europe, 18 destinations in Africa and 2 destinations in The States

Sabena carried at it's peak year 9 million pax
Brussels airlines carried at it's peak year 10,2 million pax

Figures are facts. Even Sabena was much bigger than Brussels Airlines, it doesn't mean that they are better or serving more. We can see that not. It shows that SN is on the good track, that there is structure and that they think what they are doing.
Sabena was only one year profitable. We can see that Brussels Airlines is able to make more time profit.

They use the planes were they can earn money on it. That's why we can see that WAW is receiving 5 extra flights a week and also Cracow will be served 4 times a week.
Barcelona with a lot of competition on it will not make SN earning more money on it. It only means that fee are under pressure there and seeing more leisure pax. WAW on the other hand has a lot of business traffic and a huge amount of transfer pax. This is where SN is earning money.
If SN will see an other opportunity they will use a plane somewhere else and downgrade an other one. This is a daily, weekly, monthly exercise.

I hope that the figures between Sabena and Brussels Airlines and the current situation will make it more clear to you.

[lumumba]

Let me give you some facts between the old Sabena and Brussels Airlines. Just to make you clear how a very small Brussels airlines is doing much better than the much bigger former state owned Sabena.

Sabena had a fleet of around 100 planes
Brussels airlines has a fleet of 44 planes

Sabena was flying to 33 destinations in Europe, 17 in Africa, 6 in The States and 4 in Asia
The small Brussels airlines is flying to 45 destinations in Europe, 18 destinations in Africa and 2 destinations in The States

Sabena carried at it's peak year 9 million pax
Brussels airlines carried at it's peak year 10,2 million pax

Figures are facts. Even Sabena was much bigger than Brussels Airlines, it doesn't mean that they are better or serving more. We can see that not. It shows that SN is on the good track, that there is structure and that they think what they are doing.
Sabena was only one year profitable. We can see that Brussels Airlines is able to make more time profit.

They use the planes were they can earn money on it. That's why we can see that WAW is receiving 5 extra flights a week and also Cracow will be served 4 times a week.
Barcelona with a lot of competition on it will not make SN earning more money on it. It only means that fee are under pressure there and seeing more leisure pax. WAW on the other hand has a lot of business traffic and a huge amount of transfer pax. This is where SN is earning money.
If SN will see an other opportunity they will use a plane somewhere else and downgrade an other one. This is a daily, weekly, monthly exercise.

I hope that the figures between Sabena and Brussels Airlines and the current situation will make it more clear to you.

I never wanted to compare Sabena with Brussels Airlines it's not the same period anyway .
I don't understand why Brussels Airlines is not taking more market in Brussel like othe airlines are doing in there home airports.
If they grab more market it will be good for the hub also etc...

[Atlantis]

Let me give you some facts between the old Sabena and Brussels Airlines. Just to make you clear how a very small Brussels airlines is doing much better than the much bigger former state owned Sabena.

Sabena had a fleet of around 100 planes
Brussels airlines has a fleet of 44 planes

Sabena was flying to 33 destinations in Europe, 17 in Africa, 6 in The States and 4 in Asia
The small Brussels airlines is flying to 45 destinations in Europe, 18 destinations in Africa and 2 destinations in The States

Sabena carried at it's peak year 9 million pax
Brussels airlines carried at it's peak year 10,2 million pax

Figures are facts. Even Sabena was much bigger than Brussels Airlines, it doesn't mean that they are better or serving more. We can see that not. It shows that SN is on the good track, that there is structure and that they think what they are doing.
Sabena was only one year profitable. We can see that Brussels Airlines is able to make more time profit.

They use the planes were they can earn money on it. That's why we can see that WAW is receiving 5 extra flights a week and also Cracow will be served 4 times a week.
Barcelona with a lot of competition on it will not make SN earning more money on it. It only means that fee are under pressure there and seeing more leisure pax. WAW on the other hand has a lot of business traffic and a huge amount of transfer pax. This is where SN is earning money.
If SN will see an other opportunity they will use a plane somewhere else and downgrade an other one. This is a daily, weekly, monthly exercise.

I hope that the figures between Sabena and Brussels Airlines and the current situation will make it more clear to you.

I never wanted to compare Sabena with Brussels Airlines it's not the same period anyway .
I don't understand why Brussels Airlines is not taking more market in Brussel like othe airlines are doing in there home airports.
If they grab more market it will be good for the hub also etc...

My god, you still don't get it after many explanations during the day...

[lumumba]

Let me give you some facts between the old Sabena and Brussels Airlines. Just to make you clear how a very small Brussels airlines is doing much better than the much bigger former state owned Sabena.

Sabena had a fleet of around 100 planes
Brussels airlines has a fleet of 44 planes

Sabena was flying to 33 destinations in Europe, 17 in Africa, 6 in The States and 4 in Asia
The small Brussels airlines is flying to 45 destinations in Europe, 18 destinations in Africa and 2 destinations in The States

Sabena carried at it's peak year 9 million pax
Brussels airlines carried at it's peak year 10,2 million pax

Figures are facts. Even Sabena was much bigger than Brussels Airlines, it doesn't mean that they are better or serving more. We can see that not. It shows that SN is on the good track, that there is structure and that they think what they are doing.
Sabena was only one year profitable. We can see that Brussels Airlines is able to make more time profit.

They use the planes were they can earn money on it. That's why we can see that WAW is receiving 5 extra flights a week and also Cracow will be served 4 times a week.
Barcelona with a lot of competition on it will not make SN earning more money on it. It only means that fee are under pressure there and seeing more leisure pax. WAW on the other hand has a lot of business traffic and a huge amount of transfer pax. This is where SN is earning money.
If SN will see an other opportunity they will use a plane somewhere else and downgrade an other one. This is a daily, weekly, monthly exercise.

I hope that the figures between Sabena and Brussels Airlines and the current situation will make it more clear to you.

I never wanted to compare Sabena with Brussels Airlines it's not the same period anyway .
I don't understand why Brussels Airlines is not taking more market in Brussel like othe airlines are doing in there home airports.
If they grab more market it will be good for the hub also etc...

My god, you still don't get it after many explanations during the day...

But what did you explain exactly?!

[Atlantis]

I never wanted to compare Sabena with Brussels Airlines it's not the same period anyway .
I don't understand why Brussels Airlines is not taking more market in Brussel like othe airlines are doing in there home airports.
If they grab more market it will be good for the hub also etc...

My god, you still don't get it after many explanations during the day...

But what did you explain exactly?!

I will try again.

The reason why the marketshare is lower is bcs of the number of planes SN has. And automatically this is connected with the number of pax you are transporting. This is your marketshare.

Don't forget also that in 2019 SN had 42 planes while in 2020, bcs of Reboot plus, it was reduced to only 30 planes. There you have a huge drop in pax. Your marketshare goes down.

In meantime they have again a bigger amount of planes but at the same time BRU was attracting also more airlines and more pax came with them. This means that your own marketshare goes down if nothing changed at your side.

So, why to not take more marketshare? Bcs of not having more planes. But, this year 6 extra planes will join the fleet. 4 new A320neo and 2 A330. Although the second one is not clear if it will be in service still this year. So, let's say 5 for sure.
And second your O&D. This one is good but not strong enough to give SN more marketshare.

The marketshare will go up, but very minimal. Why? Bcs new foreign long haul will arrive at BRU and short haul is also increasing. This is like the stock exchange, it goes up and down.

Don't compare with other airlines at other airports. They buy much more aircrafts bcs the local demand is so much higher. We don't have this in Belgium. Look at the latest TUI event. TUI Belgium transferred a B787 to Holland bcs the long haul demand is much higher there.
Look also at what other airlines can spend and which loans they get. This is only a dream in Belgium which never will happen.

The comparison with Sabena was very good to show how much pax they transported at that time and now. Comparison with number of planes etc. Many times we could read here that people were saying to have SN back under public umbrella. Well, look how the figures were under public.

[lumumba]

So you are saying the Belgium is poor country that is not strong has the others I don't believe that.
This is not an explanation these are facts but why is there no will to make it better and bigger that's my question?
Lufhansa is not stupid they also don't want to give market share out off there hands.
It would be interesting how Lufthansa is going to manage ITA because they are similarities with here.
Maybe the Belgium state has to take a minority part in Brussels Airlines and a bigger part in the Airport?
It will be difficult to compete with bigger airports because they have so much more possibilities to transfer pax to fill there planes that you will be kicked out of the markets...etc
they must achieve sufficient market share to survive.

There is a strength here in Brussels which is that there are no traffic restrictions so why not develop the turboprop market in cities like Brest Nantes Billund Bordeaux etc. there is already a small market for these cities with Brussels,if you add transfers pax with the low costs of using such aircraft?

You can't do miracles but they have to grow in there know market and attract more international code share partners.

[JOVAN2]

So you are saying the Belgium is poor country that is not strong has the others I don't believe that.
This is not an explanation these are facts but why is there no will to make it better and bigger that's my question?
Lufhansa is not stupid they also don't want to give market share out off there hands.
It would be interesting how Lufthansa is going to manage ITA because they are similarities with here.
Maybe the Belgium state has to take a minority part in Brussels Airlines and a bigger part in the Airport?
It will be difficult to compete with bigger airports because they have so much more possibilities to transfer pax to fill there planes that you will be kicked out of the markets...etc
they must achieve sufficient market share to survive.

There is a strength here in Brussels which is that there are no traffic restrictions so why not develop the turboprop market in cities like Brest Nantes Billund Bordeaux etc. there is already a small market for these cities with Brussels,if you add transfers pax with the low costs of using such aircraft?

You can't do miracles but they have to grow in there know market and attract more international code share partners.

They do miracles in KLM.

A few days after SN announces they will stop flying to Billund, KLM announces an additional flight.
SIX FLIGHTS A DAY !!!

Is there a low cost airline flying from somewhere in Belgium (CRL ??) to Billund. No.

Do peopke fly to Billund only for Legoland only ??

No , Billund is they main airport for this big part of peninsular Denmark. Denmark is very important for business.
SN stops flying to 2nd airport.

[lumumba]

So you are saying the Belgium is poor country that is not strong has the others I don't believe that.
This is not an explanation these are facts but why is there no will to make it better and bigger that's my question?
Lufhansa is not stupid they also don't want to give market share out off there hands.
It would be interesting how Lufthansa is going to manage ITA because they are similarities with here.
Maybe the Belgium state has to take a minority part in Brussels Airlines and a bigger part in the Airport?
It will be difficult to compete with bigger airports because they have so much more possibilities to transfer pax to fill there planes that you will be kicked out of the markets...etc
they must achieve sufficient market share to survive.

There is a strength here in Brussels which is that there are no traffic restrictions so why not develop the turboprop market in cities like Brest Nantes Billund Bordeaux etc. there is already a small market for these cities with Brussels,if you add transfers pax with the low costs of using such aircraft?

You can't do miracles but they have to grow in there know market and attract more international code share partners.

They do miracles in KLM.

A few days after SN announces they will stop flying to Billund, KLM announces an additional flight.
SIX FLIGHTS A DAY !!!

Is there a low cost airline flying from somewhere in Belgium (CRL ??) to Billund. No.

Do peopke fly to Billund only for Legoland only ??

No , Billund is they main airport for this big part of peninsular Denmark. Denmark is very important for business.
SN stops flying to 2nd airport.

I understand your frustration.

[sn26567]

I have to agree here that a few turboprops, much cheaper to operate than big jets, would be a nice addition to the SN fleet for the destinations that have been mentioned above: Bordeaux, Nantes, Billund, but also Cork, Hanover, Nuremberg, Basel and even Luxemburg. In the past, these destinations were subcontracted to Flybe, bmi, CityJet,...

Why has this market been abandoned? Brussels Airport is a nice airport for transfers, and adding passengers from smaller European cities to feed the long-hauls from Brussels should probably be a clever move.

[lumumba]

I have to agree here that a few turboprops, much cheaper to operate than big jets, would be a nice addition to the SN fleet for the destinations that have been mentioned above: Bordeaux, Nantes, Billund, but also Cork, Hanover, Nuremberg, Basel and even Luxemburg. In the past, these destinations were subcontracted to Flybe, bmi, CityJet,...

Why has this market been abandoned? Brussels Airport is a nice airport for transfers, and adding passengers from smaller European cities to feed the long-hauls from Brussels should probably be a clever move.

Exactly!
There are missing some shmunk at Brussels Airlines!

[Atlantis]

I have to agree here that a few turboprops, much cheaper to operate than big jets, would be a nice addition to the SN fleet for the destinations that have been mentioned above: Bordeaux, Nantes, Billund, but also Cork, Hanover, Nuremberg, Basel and even Luxemburg. In the past, these destinations were subcontracted to Flybe, bmi, CityJet,...

Why has this market been abandoned? Brussels Airport is a nice airport for transfers, and adding passengers from smaller European cities to feed the long-hauls from Brussels should probably be a clever move.

Some of those routes will come back in some time.
Some of them were flown already before, by several different carriers, but were heavy loss making.

When there is an opportunity to wetlease 5 to 6 smaller planes, it could be. To feed the morning and afternoon long haul wave

[Lux_avi]

I have to agree here that a few turboprops, much cheaper to operate than big jets

Not really. That's what lots of people who don't know what they are talking about think, but it's mostly incorrect.
There is a reason why turboprops are disappearing, in Europe at least.

[lumumba]

I have to agree here that a few turboprops, much cheaper to operate than big jets

Not really. That's what lots of people who don't know what they are talking about think, but it's mostly incorrect.
There is a reason why turboprops are disappearing, in Europe at least.

There are not disappearing but it's a niche market!
And so you are saying that there are not cheaper to use on short flights?

[rwandan-flyer]

So you are saying the Belgium is poor country that is not strong has the others I don't believe that.
This is not an explanation these are facts but why is there no will to make it better and bigger that's my question?
Lufhansa is not stupid they also don't want to give market share out off there hands.
It would be interesting how Lufthansa is going to manage ITA because they are similarities with here.
Maybe the Belgium state has to take a minority part in Brussels Airlines and a bigger part in the Airport?
It will be difficult to compete with bigger airports because they have so much more possibilities to transfer pax to fill there planes that you will be kicked out of the markets...etc
they must achieve sufficient market share to survive.

There is a strength here in Brussels which is that there are no traffic restrictions so why not develop the turboprop market in cities like Brest Nantes Billund Bordeaux etc. there is already a small market for these cities with Brussels,if you add transfers pax with the low costs of using such aircraft?

You can't do miracles but they have to grow in there know market and attract more international code share partners.

They do miracles in KLM.

A few days after SN announces they will stop flying to Billund, KLM announces an additional flight.
SIX FLIGHTS A DAY !!!

Is there a low cost airline flying from somewhere in Belgium (CRL ??) to Billund. No.

Do peopke fly to Billund only for Legoland only ??

No , Billund is they main airport for this big part of peninsular Denmark. Denmark is very important for business.
SN stops flying to 2nd airport.

First of all, Billund is not linked to Copenhagen. So no competition for foreign airlines from the national flag carrier. CPH is by the far the biggest hub for SAS with a good long haul network and the airport is well served from Star Alliance airlines (Air India, Air China, Ethiopian, Singapour Airlines, Thai Airways, Air Canada and Egyptair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_Airport). It's a big advantage for KLM

AF operates only 2 flights a day, British Airways one flight a day. Not all hub and spoke airlines have big capacities at Billund

KLM has built a strong regional network since 70s, thanks to its various subsidiaries such as NLM, KLM UK, KLM Alps or Air Exel. Almost everyone has merged to create KLM Cityhopper. KLM KLM Cityhopper has kept a large part of the network served by NLM, KLM UK,..

KLM had also strong partnership with nordics airlines such as Braathens in Norway and Maersk Air in Danemark. Their presence in this region is very old. They know very well the market and thus the needs from the passengers.

https://www.avionews.it/item/18942-klm- ... ement.html & https://airport-information.com/data/ne ... -1599.html

It's the same thing in UK, where British Airways has closed many domestics routes from Heathrow (to feed the BA long haul flights at LHR) from 90s. Thanks to KLM UK, KLM has added many flights to UK and that the reason why, KLM has a big network in UK.

KLM operate waved structures at their hubs with 4 and 5 daily waves. You have to add its patnership such as Delta for USA, Aeromexico for Latin America, Kenya Airways for Africa, Korean Air, China Southern and China Eastern for Asia. We probably reach almost 20 flights a day at AMS with these airlines. Choices are big!!


Brussels airport and Brussels Airlines are very far away from this. If the route is loss making for SN, no need to keep the route.

It's not a miracle. The KLM regionnal network is old. Billund route resumed in 2001.

[Lux_avi]

I have to agree here that a few turboprops, much cheaper to operate than big jets

Not really. That's what lots of people who don't know what they are talking about think, but it's mostly incorrect.
There is a reason why turboprops are disappearing, in Europe at least.

There are not disappearing but it's a niche market!
And so you are saying that there are not cheaper to use on short flights?

Niche market yes, but they are also disappearing.
Lots of airlines got rid of their turboprops in the past few years. And others are busy in the process...

The ATR is not even worth talking about, and the Q400 is terribly unreliable (-> very often AOG). Sure a low fuel burn, but huge maintenance costs come with it as well.