Brussels Airlines in 2023

[crew1990]

Excluding Israelis airlines, among biggest airlines only Air France, FlyDubai, Etihad still flying to TLV but AF flights make a stop at Athens on the return flight from TLV to CDG. You seems to forgot this is a war zone. Few days ago, Rockets hit Tel Aviv Airport and we have seen people lied on the ground in the terminal and on the apron.

I don't know why you blame Lufthansa. Commercial airlines have not the experience that to operate in the war zone. Military people are trained for this (logistic, tactical take off, assault landing,..), not a commercial pilot.

Some countries have decided to send their Air Force transport aircraft: Canada send their A310s, Royal Air Force and Brazil Air Force their KC-330, Poland their Casa, Argentina their C-130,..Some of them make a stop at ATH and then people board on civil aircraft. https://www.reuters.com/world/first-us- ... 023-10-13/

Some airlines have also started to suspend flights to Beirut, including Lufthansa. https://english.alarabiya.net/News/worl ... t-tensions

I guess you missed the fact that LH performed TLV repatriation flights with their own metal…

Yes but the situation has changed in the meantime and no airlines of the group are allowed at the moment to depart to TLV. Belgian gouvernement asked too late for those flight while German and Swiss gouvernement has been much more reactive.

[fcw]

Excluding Israelis airlines, among biggest airlines only Air France, FlyDubai, Etihad still flying to TLV but AF flights make a stop at Athens on the return flight from TLV to CDG. You seems to forgot this is a war zone. Few days ago, Rockets hit Tel Aviv Airport and we have seen people lied on the ground in the terminal and on the apron.

I don't know why you blame Lufthansa. Commercial airlines have not the experience that to operate in the war zone. Military people are trained for this (logistic, tactical take off, assault landing,..), not a commercial pilot.

You missed the point completely! Nobody would object if SN’s flight ops decide it’s not safe enough to operate a repatriation flight. It’s the fact Lufti doesn’t allow the subsidiaries to operate repatriation flights which is weird.
Forget about tactical take offs and assault landings, by the way, arrivals and departures in TLV are strictly regulated with no room for deviations these days.

[Lux_avi]

Yes but the situation has changed in the meantime and no airlines of the group are allowed at the moment to depart to TLV. Belgian gouvernement asked too late for those flight while German and Swiss gouvernement has been much more reactive.

The LH744 flight happened the same day the SN flight should have been operated. So…?

[rwandan-flyer]

Excluding Israelis airlines, among biggest airlines only Air France, FlyDubai, Etihad still flying to TLV but AF flights make a stop at Athens on the return flight from TLV to CDG. You seems to forgot this is a war zone. Few days ago, Rockets hit Tel Aviv Airport and we have seen people lied on the ground in the terminal and on the apron.

I don't know why you blame Lufthansa. Commercial airlines have not the experience that to operate in the war zone. Military people are trained for this (logistic, tactical take off, assault landing,..), not a commercial pilot.

You missed the point completely! Nobody would object if SN’s flight ops decide it’s not safe enough to operate a repatriation flight. It’s the fact Lufti doesn’t allow the subsidiaries to operate repatriation flights which is weird.
Forget about tactical take offs and assault landings, by the way, arrivals and departures in TLV are strictly regulated with no room for deviations these days.

Yes but how to blame an airline while your staff doesn't fly to TLV. Same thing happened during Ebola crisis in West Africa in 2014 with AF crew: https://www.rfi.fr/en/africa/20140910-a ... -countries

About Lufthansa the main pilot union was against the fact to fly to TLV. They said it"s the Air Force Job. It's probably why since 2-3 days more and more countries deployed Air Force aircraft to TLV replacing airlines.

An airline can't force someone to work in high crisis situation.

This attack has suprised everyone. It's the high season in Israel and even for airlines in the world the period is quite busy with airplanes still operating many flights and staff which has probably many hours not like in winter.

Not easy to get organized in 2 days (found an aircraft, staff, to get authorizations, ensure that the situation is not too unstable). Most of repatriation flights started from this middle of this week.

But i understand for people standed, the waiting is very long. But if you want operations to go well, you have you must guarantee the safety for the plane, crews and passengers. Can you image if happens something. Who people will blame ? The airline ? The governement ?

Lufthansa

Risky flights criticized by the pilots' union

The pilots' union Verband Cockpit (VC) had already criticized repatriation flights by civil airlines on Friday. Because of the “incalculable risk,” such flights would have to be carried out by the Air Force, it said. Military crews are trained for such operations and their aircraft have the appropriate equipment. The Air Force had stated: “Only when civil air transport is no longer possible due to an existing threat to the aircraft can the Bundeswehr use its protected transport aircraft for this purpose.” https://www-diepresse-com.translate.goo ... r_pto=wapp

Same thing happened witth American Airlines staff https://simpleflying.com/american-airli ... ly-israel/

[fcw]

Yes but how to blame an airline while your staff doesn't fly to TLV.

About Lufthansa the main pilot union was against the fact to fly to TLV. They said it"s the Air Force Job. It's probably why since 2-3 days more and more countries deployed Air Force aircraft to TLV replacing airlines.

An airline can't force someone to work in high crisis situation.

This attack has suprised everyone. It's the high season in Israel and even for airlines in the world the period is quite busy with airplanes still operating many flights and staff which has probably many hours not like in winter.

Not easy to get organized in 2 days (found an aircraft, staff, to get authorizations, ensure that the situation is not too unstable). Most of repatriation flights started from this middle of this week.

But i understand for people standed, the waiting is very long. But if you want operations to go well, you have you must guarantee the safety for the plane, crews and passengers. Can you image if happens something. Who people will blame ? The airline ? The governement ?

Lufthansa

Crew on repatriation flights are not forced to fly, they’re mostly volunteers and those who are not can simply refuse to operate without any questions being asked. (I am quite sure the complicated relation VC has with the Lufthansa management played a role in their statement)

[longwings]

So when the Covid-sh!t hits the fan Lufti turns to the government saying: “you need to save your airline” whilst when the government needs “their” airline for, paid, repatriation flights Lufti says: FO.

Airlines don't operate repatriation flights out of the goodness of their heart. They charge the government, typically a hefty sum because there is a higher risk premium attached to the flight (if there was no higher risk, there would not be a need for a repatriation flight).

When there is a blanket ban against these flights, it likely means one of three things:
- Team in charge of assessing safety of operations deemed the flights just too risky;
- Not enough crew (typically crew on high-risk flights volunteer for the assignment, they are not forced)
- The insurance carrier called and said they classified the destination as war zone (aka no insurance coverage).

For evidence, ask any US citizen ever repatriated by their government. Unlike most other governments in the world, the US government turns around and charge the passengers for the cost of the flight, which is around the cost of a full-fare coach ticket usually.

[Conti764]

The so-called savoir-faire for African destinations is actually a poor and risky niche business.

It's the bread and butter of SN.

One African country after the other falls in hands of Russia and its Wagner mercenaries.

Always blowing things out of proportion

Four countries... Of which only one was served by SN in the recent past.

[JOVAN2]

The so-called savoir-faire for African destinations is actually a poor and risky niche business.

It's the bread and butter of SN.

One African country after the other falls in hands of Russia and its Wagner mercenaries.

Always blowing things out of proportion

Four countries... Of which only one was served by SN in the recent past.

It remains a risky and non-ambitious business modell..
Very sad.

[Bracebrace]

Few days ago, Rockets hit Tel Aviv Airport and we have seen people lied on the ground in the terminal and on the apron.

Just for information...

That is not true. Ballistic rockets are tracked by the iron dome radar system, if they are targetting the airport the local alarm will sound while at the same time the iron dome system will intercept the rockets. It's interesting to know that sometimes if the rockets are tracked to places where no people are expected to live, the system will not intercept. So far no rockets have hit the airport, there might be falling debris, but normally people are protected from this danger.

The people lying on the ground are most probably scared because of the circumstances. Many houses have shelters in-house, every building has shelters in which people can hide. And as far as I know, many Isrealis don't really care about these shelters. They have it. Many of them don't even use the shelters. Many people forget that in this case it's different, the Israelis have been hit on the ground by a breach in their defence _on the ground_. And that scares them.

As far as the airport is concerned, there are special procedures to get in and out. They are not overly complicated, on the contrary. However, in this case there might be more risks than the risks coming from Gaza, and I'm guessing airlines don't take these flights as "easy earned money". I don't think you really know what's happening behind the screnes. The main purpose of the airline is to stay out of the news, certainly not go out there and play hero.

[rwandan-flyer]

Few days ago, Rockets hit Tel Aviv Airport and we have seen people lied on the ground in the terminal and on the apron.

Just for information...

That is not true. Ballistic rockets are tracked by the iron dome radar system, if they are targetting the airport the local alarm will sound while at the same time the iron dome system will intercept the rockets. It's interesting to know that sometimes if the rockets are tracked to places where no people are expected to live, the system will not intercept. So far no rockets have hit the airport, there might be falling debris, but normally people are protected from this danger.

The people lying on the ground are most probably scared because of the circumstances. Many houses have shelters in-house, every building has shelters in which people can hide. And as far as I know, many Isrealis don't really care about these shelters. They have it. Many of them don't even use the shelters. Many people forget that in this case it's different, the Israelis have been hit on the ground by a breach in their defence _on the ground_. And that scares them.

As far as the airport is concerned, there are special procedures to get in and out. They are not overly complicated, on the contrary. However, in this case there might be more risks than the risks coming from Gaza, and I'm guessing airlines don't take these flights as "easy earned money". I don't think you really know what's happening behind the screnes. The main purpose of the airline is to stay out of the news, certainly not go out there and play hero.

in deed mistake from me. Sorry

Israel says no rocket impacts at Ben Gurion Airport

By Reuters Staff

1 Min Read

JERUSALEM, Oct 9 (Reuters) - A rocket salvo at the Tel Aviv area on Monday did not lead to any impacts at Ben Gurion Airport, Israel’s main international gateway, a spokesperson for the Israel Airports Authority said.

Video circulated online appeared to show smoke rising from Ben Gurion. The spokesperson said there had been a mid-air rocket interception and a possible impact in a nearby village. (Writing by Dan Williams)

https://www.reuters.com/article/israel- ... FS8N39U00M

[Miqvell]

The so-called savoir-faire for African destinations is actually a poor and risky niche business.
No destinations in North and South America or Asia where economic growth and stability are a certainty.

Unfortunately, this will not change in the foreseeable future. In a recent interview with Nina Öwerdieck (CFO):

"We will continue to fly to and from Africa, combined with limited flights to North America and of course our network in Europe. Asia is not in the plans. We will also not suddenly transform ourselves into a cargo carrier."

Link : https://fdmagazine.be/posts/focus-op-de-marge (NL)

[JOVAN2]

The so-called savoir-faire for African destinations is actually a poor and risky niche business.
No destinations in North and South America or Asia where economic growth and stability are a certainty.

Unfortunately, this will not change in the foreseeable future. In a recent interview with Nina Öwerdieck (CFO):

"We will continue to fly to and from Africa, combined with limited flights to North America and of course our network in Europe. Asia is not in the plans. We will also not suddenly transform ourselves into a cargo carrier."

Link : https://fdmagazine.be/posts/focus-op-de-marge (NL)

Thanks for the link.
Lot of newspeak bla bla and unfortunately no ambitious plans.

[oldblueeyes]

So what did you expected?

SN has it's own niche within the group and serves it.

The bread and butter business is short haul and there is a need to execute there a ramp up of pax volumes to an all 320 fleet to be able to afford all investments related to new NEO's.

With ITA there will be a new player in the group serving African destinations with the coming 321LR fleet, so from a group prospective this needs to be considered as well.

On long haul the whole group is depending on the delivery timelines of new 789 and 359 - this would dictate re-allocation of 333 to other companies.

[rwandan-flyer]

Don't be afraid by ITA in Africa. They won't never have a huge network like SN or AF. They just resume some olders Alitalia routes : Accra and Dakar. ACC was before the closure served by Meridiania. DSSis a huge market for Italy with Neos that currently serves DSS.

We will won't see a Rome Conakry or a Kigali Rome.

About Asia, it's not easy.

You need to have a huge demand both point to point also with your connecting flights. I m probably wrong but i don't think that tere is huge Asian Community in Belgium, if we compare to Netherlands, Austria or Switzerland ( i won't talk about Germany, France or UK because some these countries had a colonial empire in Asia and population is bigger).


There is a lack of Asians airlines between Asia and Belgium: Hainan, Ana, Emirates, Etihad and Qatar Airways are the only Asians to serve BRU (soon joined by FlyNas, RJ and SQ), while Thai and Cathay didn't yet resumed flights to BRU. Then you have the failure of Air Belgium to attract Asians tourists. And the SN flights BRU Mumbai didn't last long time. Even Star Alliance partner Air China doesn't serve BRU. I don't think it's a coincidence.

If you compare to Vienna (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_In ... al_Airport), Zurich (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zurich_Airport) and Amsterdam (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsterdam ... t_Schiphol) they are ahead Bru in terms of flights to Asia (excluding the national flag carrier)

If we talk about connecting you need to get a huge network in Europe but also in North America. At CDG, Dallas and Houston have a huge demand from India. Same thing for New York and Chicago. Don't forget Canada, South America and a little bite Africa.

If you have flights to Asia you need to have good frequencies, at least one flight a day. AF serves all its routes at least 1 time a day but some of them have bigger frequencies: Tokyo is served up to 4 times a day or Singapour up to 2 flights a day.

Beacause MidEst can provide several flights a day to some destinations in Asia (Thailand, India, Pakistan,..) and then provide connecting to USA and Canada

Even some majors have ended flights (before or after covid):

British Airways has closed flights to South Korea, Iran, and didn't resume flights to Thailand
Air France has closed flights to Iran, Oman, Saudi Arabia, Sri Lanka, Indonesia and Taïwan
Iberia didn't resume its flights to Japan and China after covid.
KLM will end flights to Kuwait and Bahrain and ended flights to Iran and Oman.

So i don't know how SN can succeed while some Europeans majors have closed routes these last years to some markets in Asia. You will need to spend more money to get more aircraft and staff you have to be quicky profitable otherwise you put your airline in a bad situation.

SN should keep focus in Africa and North America with its own metal or with its partners

[oldblueeyes]

With respect to its size, SN is undergoing a heavy growth program, if we compare in like for like figures.

The roll over of the former long haul fleet added approx 50 Seats /Aricraft. And 2 more are in the pipeline.

Once there will be enpugh 789 in FRA and some 346 transferred from MUC to FRA as well (due to 359 deliveries), the 333 Fleet of LH might be reallocated to other brands - likely that SN would become 1-2 more aircraft.

There is 319->320 NEO replacement program in place , wbhich adds 30 Seats at each substituted aircraft.

On top ther emight be still some punctual A320CEO's from the late tails and or some more 319 from the group allowing additional growth. Some extended 319 leases are as well part of the story.

[Stij]

I agree!

Remember the last time a major Belgian Airline tried really rapid growth? I think it ended somewhere in 2001... and it was called Sabena...

[Lux_avi]

It remains a risky and non-ambitious business modell..
Very sad.

There is a difference between ambitious and suicidal.
The ideas of you have for SN are not ambitious, they are suicidal.

Do you prefer to have a (relatively) small carrier in Belgium (still not doing very well, btw...) or end up like some other European countries with only low cost carriers from abroad and a dead home carrier?

[Boavida]

Just a few numbers to think about

Luxair growing to a fleet of 33 aircraft for a country of 660.000 inhabitants.

Belgium has 11.7 million inhabitants and SN has currently 43 aircaft.

[longwings]

SN should keep focus in Africa and North America with its own metal or with its partners

As long as these are two distinct strategic plans (one for Africa, one for North America), I agree. A strategy to connect both continents is not viable in the long term. COVID has slowed down the market shift, but the airports of the future to connect the two continents are IAD and ATL, with MIA, EWR, and YUL behind them.

BRU can be the airport of choice for destinations that will not be reachable through IAD or ATL within the next ten years, but it does not have the right aircraft for that mission. What it needs is a fleet of A321LRs to expand its service to the US East Coast, open new thin routes in West Africa, and increase frequencies to (near) daily where it operates today.

Alternatively it should lead efforts to revive a Korongo-like operation. It was the right plan, at the wrong time, from the wrong city, and with insufficient capital. Call Star Alliance Airlines or something similar, base it out of ACC or DKR with a handful of CRJs or Embraers, two banks to connect to United and Brussels Airlines... (yes, the political environment is not going to facilitate that effort, I am aware)

If Brussels Airlines' long term strategy is to the connect North America and Africa, it will find out what Turkish Airlines is learning now: you need deep discount to convince passengers to take a long detour between points A and B. Turkish Airlines is consistently $1,000 - $2,000 lower than the competition on business class seats between North America and Europe, because of that not-insignificant detour via IST.
I can't speak for Turkish, but I doubt Brussels can offer that type of discount.

[Lux_avi]

Just a few numbers to think about

Luxair growing to a fleet of 33 aircraft for a country of 660.000 inhabitants.

Belgium has 11.7 million inhabitants and SN has currently 43 aircaft.

Get your numbers right first.
Luxair is not growing to a fleet of 33 aircraft to start with.
They obviously don’t only catch people who live in Luxembourg either.