Air Belgium in 2023

[Darjeeling]

This new fail for the Belgian commercial Aviation, makes us think to what happened to VG/Delsey Airlines back in 2002/2003.

No serious business plan, no feeder, no real interline agreements,... I thought Mr Terzakis was more clever than FVG and Tony Graam.

The Covid and Ukraine excuses are just silly. But again, I regret what happens to Air Belgium.

[TLspotting]

Very sad, but predicted like I did a few years ago. You can't survive from BRU without feeder flights. It's just burning money and not having good investors.

I hope LH let SN the opportunity to use one of the remaining pax planes from KF for the time one of their own got stuck.

If the LH group is not helping why not HiFly of KF?

I talked with Miqvell some time ago : but I personally had the idea of making KF the "lil leisure sis" of SN, with LH taking them over. KF could have more "exclusive" routes with feeders done by LH Group, including SN. SN and KF could be co-existing on some routes without the same target group, SN would be a "premium" flag carrier, more targeted to Business and KF a leisure airline more targeted to families and young adults.

Personally, the only feeder they could try to find otherwise would be the development of easyJet at Brussels.

Concerning KF, it is sad to have this kind of situation but it was unfortunately predictable, even more with the current debt which shouldn't be far from €100M.

[Lux_avi]

I talked with Miqvell some time ago : but I personally had the idea of making KF the "lil leisure sis" of SN, with LH taking them over. KF could have more "exclusive" routes with feeders done by LH Group, including SN. SN and KF could be co-existing on some routes without the same target group, SN would be a "premium" flag carrier, more targeted to Business and KF a leisure airline more targeted to families and young adults.

There is no need, no room, no demand for that.
Even TUI is struggling on long haul from Belgium. They're only operating 1x 787 from BRU now.

Also, why would SN bother with a second "leisure only" carrier? They can do it by themselves.

Just wishful thinking plans for Belgian aviation, which is quite screwed since Sabena left the game...
All other major carriers offer many possibilities for long haul travelers from BRU, connecting to LHR/AMS/FRA/MUC/CDG is not annoying and perfectly doable... and by the way, often cheaper than flying direct from those hubs.

[oldblueeyes]

There are three issues with the leisure idea:
- SN is rather small, compared to the other hubs where a 2nd long haul brand is operating
- the "leisure" brands LH has are a mix of leisure and routes with little business demand - eg a 30 seat business cabin instead of 45 or more plus first - but that's exactly the spot SN is operating as well
- and having the above said, SN isn't premium at all - it operates exactly in little business demand routes at destinations with moderate yields

[Darjeeling]

How could it have ended up differently ?

See by yourself, not even taking into account what happened in 2023... (loss making S.A flights).

[Atlantis]

Very sad, but predicted like I did a few years ago. You can't survive from BRU without feeder flights. It's just burning money and not having good investors.

I hope LH let SN the opportunity to use one of the remaining pax planes from KF for the time one of their own got stuck.

If the LH group is not helping why not HiFly of KF?

I talked with Miqvell some time ago : but I personally had the idea of making KF the "lil leisure sis" of SN, with LH taking them over. KF could have more "exclusive" routes with feeders done by LH Group, including SN. SN and KF could be co-existing on some routes without the same target group, SN would be a "premium" flag carrier, more targeted to Business and KF a leisure airline more targeted to families and young adults.

Personally, the only feeder they could try to find otherwise would be the development of easyJet at Brussels.

Concerning KF, it is sad to have this kind of situation but it was unfortunately predictable, even more with the current debt which shouldn't be far from €100M.

Forget about that idea. LH would never take over KF as they are not interesting. LH has their own discover airline, why to take over KF and doing the same in Belgium?

We have to be very honest with ourself. Belgians are not the adventure people like Dutch Ones. Belgians goes where they know it and this is Leisure Europe, nothing further. Exotic long haul was never a success the last 20 years. We tried many exotic ones with several long haul airlines and it was never a long story.
Even with a huge catch area around Belgium it's not working. We are not attractive, we are not straight enough, we don't have the balls to do it big. We are naif and we let others tell us what to do. This is the truth. And this has many reasons from politics, action groups and many behind the scene pressure groups to not grow here like it should. We are happy with a 5% growth while other airports shows a growth of 14%. We cannot be happy about that and with a home carrier who will have only 1 long haul plane extra and SQ who will come. It's too less, we are verbal not strong enough to convince them.

Let's face it, be honest how the situation is. See how is the Belgian economy itself and how much big foreign investments we miss. It's a reflection of the whole economy. It's no longer a surprise but a reality.

[Matt]

How could it have ended up differently ?

See by yourself, not even taking into account what happened in 2023... (loss making S.A flights).

Does someone here know why they actually started those SA flights? It's still puzzling to me

[Miqvell]

How could it have ended up differently ?

See by yourself, not even taking into account what happened in 2023... (loss making S.A flights).

Does someone here know why they actually started those SA flights? It's still puzzling to me

Simply the biggest unserved African market and one of the most important for cargo

[Matt]

How could it have ended up differently ?

See by yourself, not even taking into account what happened in 2023... (loss making S.A flights).

Does someone here know why they actually started those SA flights? It's still puzzling to me

Simply the biggest unserved African market and one of the most important for cargo

I would get then that they'd use their Freighters to JNB.

But A330's with PAX...? Anyway, I crunched those numbers once and they werent pretty.

There must be another reason (like Sobelair's CEO used to have a holiday home near Kruger Park, that's why Sobelair still served JNB in the end )

Not saying that this is the case. I just expect another good reason (like contract with an agency or w/e)

[Passenger]

There must be another reason (like Sobelair's CEO used to have a holiday home near Kruger Park, that's why Sobelair still served JNB in the end)

One of the reasons why Sobelair flew to South Africa was because Aldo Vastapane owned the Big Five Duty Free Shops at JNB and at CPT, and the Sky Shops at BRU.

[DannyVDB]

Very sad, but predicted like I did a few years ago. You can't survive from BRU without feeder flights. It's just burning money and not having good investors.

I hope LH let SN the opportunity to use one of the remaining pax planes from KF for the time one of their own got stuck.

If the LH group is not helping why not HiFly of KF?

I talked with Miqvell some time ago : but I personally had the idea of making KF the "lil leisure sis" of SN, with LH taking them over. KF could have more "exclusive" routes with feeders done by LH Group, including SN. SN and KF could be co-existing on some routes without the same target group, SN would be a "premium" flag carrier, more targeted to Business and KF a leisure airline more targeted to families and young adults.

Personally, the only feeder they could try to find otherwise would be the development of easyJet at Brussels.

Concerning KF, it is sad to have this kind of situation but it was unfortunately predictable, even more with the current debt which shouldn't be far from €100M.

Forget about that idea. LH would never take over KF as they are not interesting. LH has their own discover airline, why to take over KF and doing the same in Belgium?

We have to be very honest with ourself. Belgians are not the adventure people like Dutch Ones. Belgians goes where they know it and this is Leisure Europe, nothing further. Exotic long haul was never a success the last 20 years. We tried many exotic ones with several long haul airlines and it was never a long story.
Even with a huge catch area around Belgium it's not working. We are not attractive, we are not straight enough, we don't have the balls to do it big. We are naif and we let others tell us what to do. This is the truth. And this has many reasons from politics, action groups and many behind the scene pressure groups to not grow here like it should. We are happy with a 5% growth while other airports shows a growth of 14%. We cannot be happy about that and with a home carrier who will have only 1 long haul plane extra and SQ who will come. It's too less, we are verbal not strong enough to convince them.

Let's face it, be honest how the situation is. See how is the Belgian economy itself and how much big foreign investments we miss. It's a reflection of the whole economy. It's no longer a surprise but a reality.

I agree, but the most important thing is: Belgians are less flying, and when they do so it should be 'cheap'. There is no offer because the demand is limited, and to be honest I don't care to go through Munich, Frankfurt ... to reach my destination.

Last year I wanted to try Air Belgium to Martinique but the schedule did not fit (no boat connection to Saint Lucia)

Next Thursday I go to Singapore (via Zurich and on my return through Milan MXP). Pity the direct connection is/was not there (yet), but at the end of the day it does not matter much ... Will try Singapore Airlines for the first time (premium economy).

Regards,
Danny

[Matt]

There must be another reason (like Sobelair's CEO used to have a holiday home near Kruger Park, that's why Sobelair still served JNB in the end)

One of the reasons why Sobelair flew to South Africa was because Aldo Vastapane owned the Big Five Duty Free Shops at JNB and at CPT, and the Sky Shops at BRU.

I forgot about that, thanks

[Darjeeling]

I hope it's readable:

[sn26567]

I hope it's readable:

The title is wrong: Air Belgium doesn't scrap ALL passenger flights, it scraps only SCHEDULED passenger flights. ACMI flights can also involve passengers. And most of the Belgian press, either Flemish or French, makes the same mistake.

[fcw]

The title is wrong: Air Belgium doesn't scrap ALL passenger flights, it scraps only SCHEDULED passenger flights. ACMI flights can also involve passengers. And most of the Belgian press, either Flemish or French, makes the same mistake.

Aren’t we a little bit too pedantic here André? Most of your (copy/paste) articles are less accurate than this one to be honest!

[sn26567]

The title is wrong: Air Belgium doesn't scrap ALL passenger flights, it scraps only SCHEDULED passenger flights. ACMI flights can also involve passengers. And most of the Belgian press, either Flemish or French, makes the same mistake.

Aren’t we a little bit too pedantic here André? Most of your (copy/paste) articles are less accurate than this one to be honest!

This is an example of correct reporting: "Air Belgium ends scheduled flights"

https://www.google.com/url?rct=j&sa=t&u ... ocRGzrQH6G

[Lux_avi]

I hope it's readable:

The title is wrong: Air Belgium doesn't scrap ALL passenger flights, it scraps only SCHEDULED passenger flights. ACMI flights can also involve passengers. And most of the Belgian press, either Flemish or French, makes the same mistake.

Yes, because nobody will be able to book flights with Air Belgium as a passenger anymore.

And quite frankly, I totally agree with fcw. It's a bit the pot calling the kettle black...

[Sabena320]

Meanwhile they're looking for more Chinese money (Sichuan): https://flightlevel.be/64956/air-belgiu ... esteerder/

[Passenger]

https://flightlevel.be/64956/air-belgiu ... esteerder/
"...De bedoeling is dat de huidige passagiersvloot van 2 A330-900’s en 2 A330-200’s behouden blijft..." (the 2 x A330-900's and 2 x A330-200's remain in the fleet...")

Another news site reported on Monday that the 2 x A330-900's will return to the lessor (as reported by Matt here):
https://air-cosmos.com/article/transpor ... gers-66264

Meanwhile they're looking for more Chinese money (Sichuan): https://flightlevel.be/64956/air-belgiu ... esteerder/
"...Ook de vrachtvloot wilt Air Belgium volledig behouden. Daarmee vliegt ze nu vooral voor mede-eigenaar Hongyuan... De maatschappij kijkt momenteel naar een tweede Chinese investeerder, het gaat om Sichuan Airlines, die via nieuwe constructies mee zou stappen in het Air Belgium-verhaal... (cargo fleet remains unchanged.... Now they fly mainly for co-owner Hongyuan... Air Belgium is looking for a second investor: Sichuan Airlines Cargo..."

Being a client and a shareholder at the same time will sooner or later result in conflicts of interest. Example: fuel surcharges.

[Atlantis]

https://flightlevel.be/64956/air-belgiu ... esteerder/
"...De bedoeling is dat de huidige passagiersvloot van 2 A330-900’s en 2 A330-200’s behouden blijft..." (the 2 x A330-900's and 2 x A330-200's remain in the fleet...")

Another news site reported on Monday that the 2 x A330-900's will return to the lessor (as reported by Matt here):
https://air-cosmos.com/article/transpor ... gers-66264

Meanwhile they're looking for more Chinese money (Sichuan): https://flightlevel.be/64956/air-belgiu ... esteerder/
"...Ook de vrachtvloot wilt Air Belgium volledig behouden. Daarmee vliegt ze nu vooral voor mede-eigenaar Hongyuan... De maatschappij kijkt momenteel naar een tweede Chinese investeerder, het gaat om Sichuan Airlines, die via nieuwe constructies mee zou stappen in het Air Belgium-verhaal... (cargo fleet remains unchanged.... Now they fly mainly for co-owner Hongyuan... Air Belgium is looking for a second investor: Sichuan Airlines Cargo..."

Being a client and a shareholder at the same time will sooner or later result in conflicts of interest. Example: fuel surcharges.

Regarding the fleet, those are gossips indeed. As long as there is nothing official, its all speculation