Brussels Airlines in 2023

[Lux_avi]

I do remember once flying on a Thomas Cook Germany (now called Condor) aircraft coming from Stuttgart after the scheduled Thomas Cook Belgium A320 went AOG. I also regularly see exchanges of aircraft between TUIfly Belgium and TUIfly Netherlands in case of problems. Why can't such operations take place within the Lufthansa Group?

Because SN & other airlines can rebook passengers on other flights within the group.
I guess it is most of the time the easiest & fastest solution for passengers.

TUIfly BE & NL or other airlines cannot do so.
Totally different operations which simply cannot be compared.

[PopUp]

For several weeks there have been rumors that Lufthansa has major expansion plans with Brussels Airlines for the coming years.
According to rumors, there would eventually be a fleet of 15 A330s and up to 45 A320s.
And again: I know, it's just rumours, so nothing is decided yet.
Who knows more?

Is the A350 not considered?

On the long term 787, A350 and A330neo are considered. But on short mid term, as long as there iare A330 available within the group, there is no need to go for another aircraft type. Lufthansa is geting rid of their A330, it I'm pretty sure they will go to SN and EW

Second-hand aircraft for second class airlines...

[Matt]

Is the A350 not considered?

On the long term 787, A350 and A330neo are considered. But on short mid term, as long as there iare A330 available within the group, there is no need to go for another aircraft type. Lufthansa is geting rid of their A330, it I'm pretty sure they will go to SN and EW

Second-hand aircraft for second class airlines...

"Second class airlines" Djees, look at KF, with their fancy new A330 neos. They must be a first class airline right? Right...

In all fairness, the A330 (ceo with RR-700 engines) makes the most sense for SN. ( combo PAX-Cargo that is)

The 787 and A350 are either too big or can carry less cargo.

Don't forget: simplicity (KISS) is key to good airline management : keep as little subfleets as you can. Introducing another type of aircraft overcomplicates stuff. The only valid new aircraft would be the A330 NEO, and the group has no orders for that aircraft.

Purely objectively, if I were SN management, I'd prefer 2-3 used A330's over 1 new A350

[lumumba]

On the long term 787, A350 and A330neo are considered. But on short mid term, as long as there iare A330 available within the group, there is no need to go for another aircraft type. Lufthansa is geting rid of their A330, it I'm pretty sure they will go to SN and EW

Second-hand aircraft for second class airlines...

"Second class airlines" Djees, look at KF, with their fancy new A330 neos. They must be a first class airline right? Right...

In all fairness, the A330 (ceo with RR-700 engines) makes the most sense for SN. ( combo PAX-Cargo that is)

The 787 and A350 are either too big or can carry less cargo.

Don't forget: simplicity (KISS) is key to good airline management : keep as little subfleets as you can. Introducing another type of aircraft overcomplicates stuff. The only valid new aircraft would be the A330 NEO, and the group has no orders for that aircraft.

Purely objectively, if I were SN management, I'd prefer 2-3 used A330's over 1 new A350

[Atlantis]

Imho, the only question to be answered is, why, inside a major group like LH, SN remains in the red ? Given the apparently low wages and working conditions, why is SN is still in the red ? I don't think
It is due to a lack if commitment of their Belgian employées at all levels.

Or you could look at it from a slightly more positive angle:
- After a traditional loss in Q1 (in line with expectations-budget) SN booked a record profit for a Q2 (after Q3 in 2022 was also a record Q3 performance already - after which LH also provided SN with the funds to do the advance re-payment of the Belgian state loan/guarantee prior end 2022)
- Q3 and Q4 outlook is looking good and without unforeseen major events SN should close 2023 with quite solid black numbers (basically the first time for SN, earlier profits have been either thanks to 'luck' or with still poor margins - a 'positive break-even')
- For the first time SN has view on (so far) 5 confirmed factory new aircraft
- LH sent 2 additional A320's to SN this summer in an initially unforeseen opportunistic growth effort in BRU (aircraft that came from EW and could have easily went elsewhere in the group - but rather they saw the best use of those in BRU)
- A 9th A330 (and as already mentioned by others here...more seems to be coming) wasn't yet foreseen at this stage at time of the Covid re-organisation, but recovery is strong and LH Group wants to grow in the high-potential Africa market through SN
- SN is again after years of crisis management doing tangible investments in the product such the complete renovation of the Sunrise lounge, the new short-haul catering offer (which - in view of a lacklustre reaction on this topic already here - of course depends of flight length and time of the day, but at least in terms of concept re-alligns SN to other competitors with fresh food, real cutlery, ... instead of a packed Foodmaker salad with wood cutlery), re-introducing the highly missed 'service details' that were cut some years ago due to savings such as ice-cream on long haul and the Neuhaus gift box in long haul Business Class, etc. (and more to come) --> we are talking a cost of millions in product investments
- An easily forgotten/ignored or mis-intrepreted event: in the last 1.5 year SN (re)launched flights to FRA, MUC and ZRH. A cost-optimisation effort in the group to reduce unnecessary nightstops in each others' hubs. But while those flights might not sound sexy for the average aviation geek, they are 'not unimportant' financially wise... And before the complaint 'of course, they 'steal' all the BRU market to the other hubs' - please have some realistic views on how airline networks works, SN can't serve the world by itself and can never become a second KLM (Sabena could have seized that strategic hub opportunity in the -70/80's but it's KLM that ran away with it before anyone else even realised what was happening)

Not sure what sort of miracles some people expect from an airline (taking with it its Sabena legacy) that was basically NEVER structurally profitable yet.
Not sure what people expect from a semi-premium network carrier based and headquartered in Belgium (with which comes the cost of all those words I used there) that gets a multi-million bottom line impact every year due to the distorted competitive landscape in Belgium where one of Ryanairs' largest continental bases (!!) is still subsidised en masse as if it's a regional remote airport reliant on the few flight activities it can get. It might be another one of Ryanair's core activities to go to court against everyone and everything, but it says something about the severety of the situation that SN files a formal complaint to the European Commission about this situation (fully supported by LH Group).

The pessimism on this forum is a bit depressing. I've been following this forum for quite a number of years now and have become very inactive posting in last years for various reasons....
Over the years plenty of people here predicted SN to go bankrupt countless times, like Ryanair (in the media) saying SN would end-up being a marginal airline that would 'if surviving' not transport more than a few million pax per year, etc. etc. Well, at the time of the rebranding in 2021 the message of SN was 'we are here to stay!' and considering all the above and with a so far for SN record financial performance in the last quarters I wouldn't say that was a statement out of ignorance or stupidity.

According to airline fleets there are already 9 A330 in the fleet. Are you talking about nr 10?

[PopUp]

Actually, I don't think I ever said SN should get brand new A350's (indeed too big) and B787"s (Boeing). SN should stay with Airbus, but SN deserves (imho) better than always getting second-hand aircraft. Of course, it depends on the age, but anyway... New aircraft need less maintenance and use less fuel, which in turn improves the financial results. But you all know this.

[Lux_avi]

New aircraft need less maintenance and use less fuel, which in turn improves the financial results. But you all know this.

That's probably why there are still lots of "old" aircraft flying around the world in airlines making profit...
Your statement is a little bit too simplistic. Just a little bit.

[PopUp]

I never claimed to be an expert. So, I take no offense when you say that "my statement is a bit symplistic ". However, I said in my post that "it depends on the age", which you may have overlooked, which happens to everybody.
Btw, what is the age of the A330 with which SN flies ? Not being an expert, I wouldn't know where to look for this info. Your assistance would be more than welcome. Thank you very much.

[Atlantis]

I never claimed to be an expert. So, I take no offense when you say that "my statement is a bit symplistic ". However, I said in my post that "it depends on the age", which you may have overlooked, which happens to everybody.
Btw, what is the age of the A330 with which SN flies ? Not being an expert, I wouldn't know where to look for this info. Your assistance would be more than welcome. Thank you very much.

They are between 13 and 18 years old

[MD-11forever]

According to https://www.planespotters.net/airline/Brussels-Airlines, the average age of the A330 fleet is:

OO-SFB 15,4
OO-SFC 15,7
OO-SFD 14,9
OO-SFE 14,4
OO-SFF 13,2
OO-SFG 14,6
OO-SFH 18,2
OO-SFJ 17,9
OO-SFX 13,7

Average 15,3

[PopUp]

Thank you ! Also to Atlantis.

[lumumba]

Is there already a date to restart Luanda because it's more than 2 weeks now?

[crew1990]

Is there already a date to restart Luanda because it's more than 2 weeks now?

Do you know when will the Niger airspace open again? This would actually be the same answer. From my side I don't know.

[lumumba]

Is there already a date to restart Luanda because it's more than 2 weeks now?

Do you know when will the Niger airspace open again? This would actually be the same answer. From my side I don't know.

They could rent an outside service like other airlines do often for example they could rent an 737 or A321 for this service the time it's necessary ....

[Darjeeling]

These A330s aren’t that old at all. Moreover, they come from reliable past operators (CX, SQ, LH, …).

[Atlantis]

For several weeks there have been rumors that Lufthansa has major expansion plans with Brussels Airlines for the coming years.
According to rumors, there would eventually be a fleet of 15 A330s and up to 45 A320s.
And again: I know, it's just rumours, so nothing is decided yet.
Who knows more?

The A330 fleet between LH and SN is quite similar. LH oldest one is also 18 years but the youngest is 9 years.
They have only 11 of them. Maybe the oldest will go out of the fleet and the middle ones will go to SN?

Interesting also to know where they will fly. For sure certain to Africa but what about the others? The States?

[A330]

Always fun these discussions on fleet and destinations.
Fleet wise I guess it is probable that SN will get some of the A330’s of LH. But only 4 of those are younger than 14 years. The rest can only be a stop-gap. The others as well but they could last a bit longer. Their replacement isn’t due for another 10 years. The older ones are up for replacement in like 5-8 years.
Whenever the replacement starts of the A330’s and A340-300’s at LH and Swiss, they might include options for the youngest ones, but at least they will know which way to go. They won’t introduce another type after that.
With Austrian getting 787-9’s, and with the 787-9 already in the mainline fleet of LH, I get the feeling it will be the same for SN. I won’t expect an order for the A330-900 just for SN.

A tenth A330 would be nice, 5 more would be even better. Fingers crossed.
In terms of destinations I would expect the return of Montréal, which they were about to start before COVID struck. And up frequencies in Africa and introduce Some spare aircraft.
With 15 I think about Lagos or Libreville, some here mentioned Nairobi a couple of weeks ago. What about Brazzaville?
Boston? San Francisco? Or does that make more sense with United?
Let’s hope for the best, that’s what we do here on the forum, until someone with actual knowledge puts us back with both feet on the ground

[Conti764]

Is the A350 not considered?

On the long term 787, A350 and A330neo are considered. But on short mid term, as long as there iare A330 available within the group, there is no need to go for another aircraft type. Lufthansa is geting rid of their A330, it I'm pretty sure they will go to SN and EW

Second-hand aircraft for second class airlines...

If I view fairly recent tripreports, SN is considered from second class. Just an average hard product with mostly exceptional crew.

[PopUp]

Indeed, most of the time the cc do a very good job with what they have and with the (some stupid cost saving) instructions they have to stick to.

Thank you, A330, for your interesting contribution on 2 Sep.

FWIW from the non expert I am, when additional long haul aircraft arrive, I would say, to start, fly in summer to BOS and in winter to MIA.
As to African destinations, I would not know which new destinations to choose currently given the unrests in Africa. LOS and Nigeria are a no-go for me personally. Another very dangerous destination. Let's hope that by the time these additional aircraft arrive, we will have of clearer idea of political developments in Africa.

[Homo Aeroportus]

.......

Congrats to the Ops and Mx departments to try to make do with what they have.

H.A.

I do not want to be agressive, but very sceptical about what you wrote after the screenshot.

Imho, at least, no congrats to the Opx and Mx departments led by German COO, TR. I stand to be corrected, but given the number of real technical problems encountered by "his" aircraft, I doubt he is doing a good job "with what he has got". If what he has got, is not adequate, isn't it his job to ask CS and Co. for adequate/sufficient means bzw help to face adverse situations ? Unless he has been instructed to do "operate" otherwise...
.....

I don't take your post as aggressive, quite to the contrary it is a pleasure to read such polite comment again on this forum.

I should have been more clear as by "Ops & Mx Departments" I meant the foot soldiers, those who are hands on trying to solve the problems time and again.
And also add those who are front line as ticketing, check-in, station and country managers.

BTW, IAD was again cancelled today, as it was two days ago.....

H.A.