Air Belgium in 2022

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Acid-drop
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by Acid-drop »

Atlantis wrote: 24 Nov 2022, 21:04 Forget it to organize African flights from CRL or LGG when you don't have connections and landing middle of nowhere.
Politics, shareholders, shamefully will decide again if they can survive or not bcs of choosing the airport. According to them, they prefer not BRU bcs it's not Walloon. How crazy can it be...
Maybe air belgium was just too ambicious and too exotic
If they fly to nice, malaga or sicily with an efficient small plane (a220?) with good frequency, they can be sucessful.
And ofc endless cargo oppotunities from LGG
The investor is the decision maker, it makes complete sense to keep the traffic local... but its also a risk, big or small depending on the destination
My messages reflect my personal opinion which may be different than yours. I beleive a forum is made to create a debate so I encourage people to express themselves, the way they want, with the ideas they want. I expect the same understanding in return.

JOVAN2
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by JOVAN2 »

"Vakbondsbronnen melden echter dat de echte reden voor het schrappen van de vluchten een exodus aan piloten bij Air Belgium is."

https://www.tijd.be/ondernemen/luchtvaa ... 26852.html
The Pilots exodus can be explained very easily.

Pilots in France (at least with Air France) have special fiscal status and pay only 12% taxes on income , compared to almost 50% in the Kingdom of Belgium. The French pilots at Air Belgium where there during Corona times to keep their jobs and license.
Now that aviation picks up, they are running away.
Belgium is a fiscal paradise for the very rich French (Depardieu, and Mulliers...). A hell for normal working people.. Like pilots.

Many hundreds of Belgian pilots fly for foreign airlines for this reason;

A Belgian pilot working for a French airline told me also that AB can easily survive with a strong Cargo division and some cleverly chosen business/holiday destinations for Passengers. LAX, SFO, CUN , MEX and Brazil come in the picture.
Last edited by sn26567 on 01 Dec 2022, 00:14, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Codes corrected

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Atlantis
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by Atlantis »

Without a network they will not survive. They are not like Emirates who is flying only wide bodies.

Cargo will not be a problem I think. But I was already surprise that their A332F is leased to Emirates. This means that also that plane was for them unemployed. Left only the 2 B748F.
I'm not sure if the Chinese main shareholder is interested in pax flights. This is not their core business.

But, let's assume there is a chance. Pure speculation of course what I'm writing here.

Instead of investing money in long haul they should invest in 4 to 5 norrow body aircraft for feeder flights. Flights to the UK, France, Scandinavia, Eastern Europe, Switzerland to feed their long haul. As long haul we can think about more African flights, the States (Houston, Boston, evening flight to New York), Hong Kong, Delhi, Astana.
This with interline agreements.

They have lost tons of money to fly to destinations with not much potential.

It would be an investment, but it could work. Devide also the management. One for cargo and one for pax, also related to the shareholders as probably this is also the discussion that certain don't want to invest in pax but only in cargo and vs.

Miqvell
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by Miqvell »

Hongyuan was chosen because it was interested in developing both passenger and cargo activities, according to Terzakis.

fcw
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by fcw »

JOVAN2 wrote: 29 Nov 2022, 21:05 Pilots in France (at least with Air France) have special fiscal status and pay only 12% taxes on income , compared to almost 50% in the Kingdom of Belgium.
Absolute nonsense!
There is no special fiscal status for pilots in France! Income tax in France is, indeed, lower than in Belgium, but social security contributions are almost double of what they are in Belgium.On top of that there’s an additional social tax of 10%.

JOVAN2
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by JOVAN2 »

fcw wrote: 30 Nov 2022, 19:17
JOVAN2 wrote: 29 Nov 2022, 21:05 Pilots in France (at least with Air France) have special fiscal status and pay only 12% taxes on income , compared to almost 50% in the Kingdom of Belgium.
Absolute nonsense!
There is no special fiscal status for pilots in France! Income tax in France is, indeed, lower than in Belgium, but social security contributions are almost double of what they are in Belgium.On top of that there’s an additional social tax of 10%.
Well, my source is a Belgian pilot flying for a french airline (not Air France).
Like in many countries, some categories of people are treated very well by their government.
Not only politicians are taking very well care of, but also "Civil servants", magistrates, diplomats,...

Details do not need to be discussed here; my point is only to explain why so many French pilots left Air Belgium as soon as the aviation business picked up.

fcw
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by fcw »

JOVAN2 wrote: 01 Dec 2022, 10:05
Well, my source is a Belgian pilot flying for a french airline (not Air France).
Like in many countries, some categories of people are treated very well by their government.

Details do not need to be discussed here; my point is only to explain why so many French pilots left Air Belgium as soon as the aviation business picked up.
Indeed, off topic, but rubbish nevertheless. Your example is not about AF pilots having a special tax regime in France but someone (ab)using tricky cross border loopholes to reduce their income tax. You are not paying them a service by quoting figures here.

Bracebrace
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by Bracebrace »

fcw wrote: 30 Nov 2022, 19:17 Absolute nonsense!
There is no special fiscal status for pilots in France! Income tax in France is, indeed, lower than in Belgium, but social security contributions are almost double of what they are in Belgium.On top of that there’s an additional social tax of 10%.
It depends on how you define "special fiscal status". When you add retirement, possible redundancies or bankrupcy to the picture, one would be really stupid not to go for a French contract. Ask any former CDG based Norwegian pilot and compare it to their STN or BCN based colleagues.

fcw
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by fcw »

Bracebrace wrote: 01 Dec 2022, 11:44 It depends on how you define "special fiscal status". When you add retirement, possible redundancies or bankrupcy to the picture, one would be really stupid not to go for a French contract. Ask any former CDG based Norwegian pilot and compare it to their STN or BCN based colleagues.
Off topic

You are taking the wrong shortcut!
Working conditions are indeed a lot better in France, but NOT due a special fiscal regime for pilots, no matter how you define it.
Firstly gross salaries are a lot higher, pensions are linked to that gross salary and pension contributions are a lot higher than in Belgium. Anyone in France paying the same contributions will have a similar pension. Redundancy payments are not taxed in France, but there again it’s a general rule not a specific system for pilots.
Happy to discuss further in a separate topic, but please let’s stick to Air Belgium here.

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luchtzak
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by luchtzak »

However it relates to pilots working for Air Belgium, the recent discussion is slightly going off-topic. May I suggest to return to "Air Belgium 2022" ?

Bracebrace
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by Bracebrace »

Let's rephrase and debunk then.

If the reason for the problems is "an exodus" I'm "out" of the discussion and not going to comment as I don't know the facts.

If the reason for the problems is "an exodus to french contracts", unfortunately the problem is not related solely to Air Belgium. If you're a journalist, do yourself a favor and find out how many Belgian pilots actually work with a French contract in France.

longwings
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by longwings »

Atlantis wrote: 30 Nov 2022, 11:44 But I was already surprise that their A332F is leased to Emirates. This means that also that plane was for them unemployed.
That's a jump too far. Each source of revenue comes with its own risk-reward balance. Companies settle for lower revenue in exchange for a lower level of risk to the revenue all the time. Could be the risks of its own operations were not worth the rewards compared to nearly guaranteed revenue from an Emirates lease.
Atlantis wrote: 30 Nov 2022, 11:44Flights to the UK, France, Scandinavia, Eastern Europe, Switzerland to feed their long haul. As long haul we can think about more African flights, the States (Houston, Boston, evening flight to New York), Hong Kong, Delhi, Astana.
So compete with the likes of BA, Air France, SAS, and Swiss for regional connections to long haul cities? On the basis of price and without corporate customers?

rwandan-flyer
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by rwandan-flyer »

Air Belgium is currently operating a flight for Air Madagasacar between Paris Cdg and Antananarivo with an A330-200 OE-LCL. I don't know if it's for a long period because Air Madagascar no longer uses its A340s for its long haul flights (since covid crisis). They are manly leasing aircraft from Hifly A330s & A340s, Ethiopian B787s, Air Europe B787s & AirHub A330s.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/oe-lcl

Madagascar Airlines plans to add E-Jet & B787 https://www.airdatanews.com/air-madagas ... oeing-787/


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longwings
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by longwings »

rwandan-flyer wrote: 06 Dec 2022, 05:17 Air Belgium is currently operating a flight for Air Madagasacar between Paris Cdg and Antananarivo with an A330-200 OE-LCL. I don't know if it's for a long period because Air Madagascar no longer uses its A340s for its long haul flights (since covid crisis).
Kinda hope it is a one-off last-minute rescue flight (e.g. original aircraft is AOG) because if this was a long-ago planned rotation, not a good impression when you start with positioning the aircraft nearly 3 hours late and causing a 2-hour delay against scheduled departure from CDG.

Darjeeling
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by Darjeeling »

Air Belgium has tried (again) to initiate the idea of launching FIH ops but they face too many hurdles coming from the Federal State that clearly protects SN. Although bilateral DRC/Belgium would allow them to open the route. But this would deprive SN of some of its current lucrative frequencies.No doubt Lufthansa doesn't see this as a good thing either, even from CRL.

The target was to operate from CRL and to attract VFR and local trafic. The business case was very positive, but we all know how the "Clan Michel" is still powerful and alive in the region and certainly when it comes to the sensitive matter of the air link between the two countries.

Reminds us of the old scenario with Sabena / CityBird in 1999-2000 which resulted in the "MD-11 deal".

Lux_avi
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by Lux_avi »

Darjeeling wrote: 08 Dec 2022, 11:03 Air Belgium has tried (again) to initiate the idea of launching FIH ops but they face too many hurdles coming from the Federal State that clearly protects SN. Although bilateral DRC/Belgium would allow them to open the route. But this would deprive SN of some of its current lucrative frequencies.No doubt Lufthansa doesn't see this as a good thing either, even from CRL.

The target was to operate from CRL and to attract VFR and local trafic. The business case was very positive, but we all know how the "Clan Michel" is still powerful and alive in the region and certainly when it comes to the sensitive matter of the air link between the two countries.

Reminds us of the old scenario with Sabena / CityBird in 1999-2000 which resulted in the "MD-11 deal".

Yeah, same story for TUI a couple of years ago.
They never made it.

rwandan-flyer
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by rwandan-flyer »

Darjeeling wrote: 08 Dec 2022, 11:03 Air Belgium has tried (again) to initiate the idea of launching FIH ops but they face too many hurdles coming from the Federal State that clearly protects SN. Although bilateral DRC/Belgium would allow them to open the route. But this would deprive SN of some of its current lucrative frequencies.No doubt Lufthansa doesn't see this as a good thing either, even from CRL.

The target was to operate from CRL and to attract VFR and local trafic. The business case was very positive, but we all know how the "Clan Michel" is still powerful and alive in the region and certainly when it comes to the sensitive matter of the air link between the two countries.

Reminds us of the old scenario with Sabena / CityBird in 1999-2000 which resulted in the "MD-11 deal".
The main problem is that there is not open sky between both countries and between most Africans countries and Europe. SN uses trafic rights allocated to Belgian airlines (they are probably the only designated carrier). Air Belgium could use trafic rights which are allocated to DR Congo airlines. But are Congolese are Ok ? Because if one day DR Congo airlines are removed from UE blacklist, they will probably want to serve BRU and use their trafic rights.

Same history happened for Corsair in Senegal, Benin and Madagascar. In Senegal, Corsair was forced to end its flights because they used trafic rights allocated to Senegalese airline. When Air Senegal has decided to serve Paris, Corsair has given back trafic rights to Air Senegal. In Benin, Corsair is using trafic rights allocated to Beninese airlines, beacause Air France is using all trafic rights allocated to French airlines

With an opensky agreement you can't have this kind of problem, but the trafic right is a really problem in Africa. Sometimes you have bilateral air services agreements which have not been updated since many decades (heritage of the post colonial era). A period when the competition was not big (before 1990s)
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Stij
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by Stij »

It's "easy" to use Congo's traffic rights... by using a Congolese airline... but, as Citybird experienced with "les linges aériennes Congolaises", much more difficult to get your money for these flights out of Africa.

crew1990
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by crew1990 »

There were a time, I don't know if it still the case, SN was using her own 5 traffic right + using 2 traffic right from a congolese airlines, is it still the case?

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OO-JFP
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Re: Air Belgium in 2022

Post by OO-JFP »

Airbus A330-243F 1708 F-HMRH CMA CGM Air Cargo posn 09dec22 FNI-CDG after transfer ex OO-AIR
First the pilots, then the aircraft to have new contracts? :roll:
Source: Skyliner Aviation

OO-JFP

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