Brussels Airlines in 2022

[crew1990]

Well I would tend to agree on most of the Flanker statement, but without beeing as dramatic. Greener aviation still have a bright future but intermodality is the key. In the case of Brussels Airlines they should definitely go a step further with SNCB/NMBS to provide direct link with high speed train/pendolino train to closest cities such as Basel/Strasbourg/Geneva/Lyon/Frankfurt/Paris/London/Dusseldorf/Koln and so on. Even setup night trains for connecting to long haul flight. But NMBS/SNCB is definitely not ambitious enough for such a project and will let this market to orther train operator. Gouvernement definitely has a keyroll to play in this, but older I get, less optimistic regarding "right decision" from our politician I am.

[Lux_avi]

Well I would tend to agree on most of the Flanker statement, but without beeing as dramatic. Greener aviation still have a bright future but intermodality is the key. In the case of Brussels Airlines they should definitely go a step further with SNCB/NMBS to provide direct link with high speed train/pendolino train to closest cities such as Basel/Strasbourg/Geneva/Lyon/Frankfurt/Paris/London/Dusseldorf/Koln and so on. Even setup night trains for connecting to long haul flight. But NMBS/SNCB is definitely not ambitious enough for such a project and will let this market to orther train operator. Gouvernement definitely has a keyroll to play in this, but older I get, less optimistic regarding "right decision" from our politician I am.

https://www.aviation24.be/organisations ... 2obUzskI_I

Remember this?

What you suggest doesn't make sense, it is nothing else than what the greens would like to see. And it's as stupid as building gaz powered facilities to produce electricity...

As for the future of aviation, do not forget there is a world outside the EU.

[crew1990]

Well I would tend to agree on most of the Flanker statement, but without beeing as dramatic. Greener aviation still have a bright future but intermodality is the key. In the case of Brussels Airlines they should definitely go a step further with SNCB/NMBS to provide direct link with high speed train/pendolino train to closest cities such as Basel/Strasbourg/Geneva/Lyon/Frankfurt/Paris/London/Dusseldorf/Koln and so on. Even setup night trains for connecting to long haul flight. But NMBS/SNCB is definitely not ambitious enough for such a project and will let this market to orther train operator. Gouvernement definitely has a keyroll to play in this, but older I get, less optimistic regarding "right decision" from our politician I am.

https://www.aviation24.be/organisations ... 2obUzskI_I

Remember this?

What you suggest doesn't make sense, it is nothing else than what the greens would like to see. And it's as stupid as building gaz powered facilities to produce electricity...

As for the future of aviation, do not forget there is a world outside the EU.

"study by European aviation associations", Who paid for that "study"? Everything in the title...

There are other way than gaz to produce electricity.

Intermodality is the future, why do you think DB the german railway is now getting closer to star alliance...

[PopUp]

Intermodality is complex. For it to work efficiently and attract pax, you need to offer check-in at the point of departure (of the train to connect with a flight, and that, too, has a cost). Plus automatic transfer of baggage upon arrival (of the train) at the airport, to the flight. On the way back, that procedure becomes impossible.
Feeder flights will always be needed, also for what some consider short flights.
Imho, I could see the advantages for both airline pax and train users only to have a fast train (not a Thalys or a TGV) from BRU to Basel with very few stops (that's what I meant by "fast"). Itinerary three to four times a day :
Brussels Airport
Brussels Schuman
Brussels Luxembourg Station
Luxembourg Capital City
(Metz)
Strasbourg
(Mulhouse)
Basel

The problem is that three countries are involved and three railway companies. So, probably wishful thinking. Perhaps a faster train to Luxembourg (Grand Duchy) starting and ending at BRU rather than Brussels Midi-Zuid would already be a first step.
I don't see much in the Greens' dictatorship or dogmas. The problem of our planet is not the CO² emissions, but the overpopulation. Which does not mean that we should not try to reduce pollution in general. Our planet cannot bare seven billion (or more) people living on it. Full stop. Punt. Point à la ligne.

Slightly off topic. Sorry

[sn26567]

Slightly off topic. Sorry

Don't worry, you raise interesting points, and Brussels Airlines (subject of the topic) should be involved!

[Passenger]

Brussels Airlines is in a Catch 22 position. The perfect storm. Their financial situation is dramatic, but they can’t afford to use this too much as argument because this would offset consumers. Cumulated loss is terrible and the full 287M corona credit line has been used. Bookings and load factors have improved since a few months, but are more then nullified by two new setbacks: the fuel prices have exploded and the EUR-USD exchange rate has collapsed. On top, invoices and claims for the damage caused by the past strike are coming in. But on 31/12/2022, a 50M loan must be repaid to the (Belgian) Federal Holding and Investment Company (FPIM/SFPI). Rumours are that SN is negociating a delay.

Some people, both internal (crew) and external (trade unions), seem to think that Lufthansa will come to assistance once again, allowing Brussels Airlines to adjust salaries to pre-Reboot-Plus. Like the Titanic orchestra, they’re ignoring the possibility that Lufthansa might consolidate its losses.

[lumumba]

Brussels Airlines is in a Catch 22 position. The perfect storm. Their financial situation is dramatic, but they can’t afford to use this too much as argument because this would offset consumers. Cumulated loss is terrible and the full 287M corona credit line has been used. Bookings and load factors have improved since a few months, but are more then nullified by two new setbacks: the fuel prices have exploded and the EUR-USD exchange rate has collapsed. On top, invoices and claims for the damage caused by the past strike are coming in. But on 31/12/2022, a 50M loan must be repaid to the (Belgian) Federal Holding and Investment Company (FPIM/SFPI). Rumours are that SN is negociating a delay.

Some people, both internal (crew) and external (trade unions), seem to think that Lufthansa will come to assistance once again, allowing Brussels Airlines to adjust salaries to pre-Reboot-Plus. Like the Titanic orchestra, they’re ignoring the possibility that Lufthansa might consolidate its losses.

Is it so much more dramatic than the competition?
Because in another post they say the contrary that AF/KLM is burning much more money than Brussels Airlines?!

[PttU]

Intermodality is complex. For it to work efficiently and attract pax, you need to offer check-in at the point of departure (of the train to connect with a flight, and that, too, has a cost). Plus automatic transfer of baggage upon arrival (of the train) at the airport, to the flight. On the way back, that procedure becomes impossible.

Why? I think I have made connections where I had to pick up my luggage and check it in again. I don't know how many people take a flight from company A to a certain airport and after that a flight from company B to their final destination. I wouldn't mind checking in my own bags at the airport after a train train ride. I think what's holding me back most is the "guarantee": if my train should be cancelled or delayed, so when I arrive more "just in time" at the airport, I should not have to worry about missing the flight. This might be through some kind of pick-up/fast guidance through check-in/security/... or an automatic rebooking to the next flight if it's shortly after.

Feeder flights will always be needed, also for what some consider short flights.
Imho, I could see the advantages for both airline pax and train users only to have a fast train (not a Thalys or a TGV) from BRU to Basel with very few stops (that's what I meant by "fast"). Itinerary three to four times a day :
Brussels Airport
Brussels Schuman
Brussels Luxembourg Station
Luxembourg Capital City
(Metz)
Strasbourg
(Mulhouse)
Basel

The problem is that three countries are involved and three railway companies. So, probably wishful thinking. Perhaps a faster train to Luxembourg (Grand Duchy) starting and ending at BRU rather than Brussels Midi-Zuid would already be a first step.
I don't see much in the Greens' dictatorship or dogmas. The problem of our planet is not the CO² emissions, but the overpopulation. Which does not mean that we should not try to reduce pollution in general. Our planet cannot bare seven billion (or more) people living on it. Full stop. Punt. Point à la ligne.

Slightly off topic. Sorry

I know it's an aviation-forum, but why focus on Brussels Airport as start/end station of a long distance train? If someone would fly to BRU and need the train to Basel, why wouldn't they fly to Basel directly? Or somewhere close to it which already has a good connection to Basel?
The train to Basel would only be an alternative for those who would otherwise have to take a train (or car) to BRU before flying to BSL (if there were any flights), Brussels South Train station has much more connections to attract passengers traveling to Basel.

A few months ago, I took a fast train from Madrid to Sevilla. About 2:30 by train (AVE), but much more relaxed than a busy airport, being cramped in a plane and flying for about an hour. I guess the same can be done in Germany too: why shouldn't you be able to find and book a train ticket from Berlin to Frankfurt by train on the Lufthansa-site? In that mindset, I do understand DB becoming a member of Star Alliance.

[PopUp]

Quick reaction :
High revenue passengers want through check-in.That's one reason among many others why airline alliances were created and why interline agreements are concluded.

As to my "train example", you could consider a feeder train starting in Strasbourg ( not in Basel) and going directly to BRU with just one stop in Luxembourg (Grand Duchy). SN and Brussels Airport should indeed be the asking parties. Imho.

[Conti764]

Well I would tend to agree on most of the Flanker statement, but without beeing as dramatic. Greener aviation still have a bright future but intermodality is the key. In the case of Brussels Airlines they should definitely go a step further with SNCB/NMBS to provide direct link with high speed train/pendolino train to closest cities such as Basel/Strasbourg/Geneva/Lyon/Frankfurt/Paris/London/Dusseldorf/Koln and so on. Even setup night trains for connecting to long haul flight. But NMBS/SNCB is definitely not ambitious enough for such a project and will let this market to orther train operator. Gouvernement definitely has a keyroll to play in this, but older I get, less optimistic regarding "right decision" from our politician I am.

https://www.aviation24.be/organisations ... 2obUzskI_I

Remember this?

What you suggest doesn't make sense, it is nothing else than what the greens would like to see. And it's as stupid as building gaz powered facilities to produce electricity...

As for the future of aviation, do not forget there is a world outside the EU.

"study by European aviation associations", Who paid for that "study"? Everything in the title...

There are other way than gaz to produce electricity.

Intermodality is the future, why do you think DB the german railway is now getting closer to star alliance...

Great, then have DB operate from BRU to select cities in a reasonable distance.

The government will never allow the NMBS to take on such endeavour.

[Conti764]

Intermodality is complex. For it to work efficiently and attract pax, you need to offer check-in at the point of departure (of the train to connect with a flight, and that, too, has a cost). Plus automatic transfer of baggage upon arrival (of the train) at the airport, to the flight. On the way back, that procedure becomes impossible.
Feeder flights will always be needed, also for what some consider short flights.
Imho, I could see the advantages for both airline pax and train users only to have a fast train (not a Thalys or a TGV) from BRU to Basel with very few stops (that's what I meant by "fast"). Itinerary three to four times a day :
Brussels Airport
Brussels Schuman
Brussels Luxembourg Station
Luxembourg Capital City
(Metz)
Strasbourg
(Mulhouse)
Basel

The problem is that three countries are involved and three railway companies. So, probably wishful thinking. Perhaps a faster train to Luxembourg (Grand Duchy) starting and ending at BRU rather than Brussels Midi-Zuid would already be a first step.
I don't see much in the Greens' dictatorship or dogmas. The problem of our planet is not the CO² emissions, but the overpopulation. Which does not mean that we should not try to reduce pollution in general. Our planet cannot bare seven billion (or more) people living on it. Full stop. Punt. Point à la ligne.

Slightly off topic. Sorry

Such destinations are indeed quite challenging to make it work. But with ordering new, fast locomotives capable of operating on all neighbouring networks the NMBS is working towards int'l trains to the neighbouring countries. SN could work out an arrangement with the NMBS to/from main trainstations in Southern Netherlands/Western Germany/Northern France. If SN would then (be allowed to) tap into some of the juicy markets KL and/or AF now have for themselves, it might prove worth the effort.

When construction on A-pier West is going to start, a tunnel connecting the A-pier expansion directly with the trainstation might be an option.

Just thinking out of the box, here

[TLspotting]

Well I would tend to agree on most of the Flanker statement, but without beeing as dramatic. Greener aviation still have a bright future but intermodality is the key. In the case of Brussels Airlines they should definitely go a step further with SNCB/NMBS to provide direct link with high speed train/pendolino train to closest cities such as Basel/Strasbourg/Geneva/Lyon/Frankfurt/Paris/London/Dusseldorf/Koln and so on. Even setup night trains for connecting to long haul flight. But NMBS/SNCB is definitely not ambitious enough for such a project and will let this market to orther train operator. Gouvernement definitely has a keyroll to play in this, but older I get, less optimistic regarding "right decision" from our politician I am.

Words from GIlkinet last week, translated :
"The modal transfer is a priority. In the study of Federal Public Service (SPF/FOD) Mobility on the replacement of selected short-haul flights by the train, the choice hasn't given any scenario at mid-term till 2030 on a direct link with Brussels Airport with HST. The topology of the railway network linking the airport is not adapted to a high-speed service.

On the long-term, the route of the new line 36 (so Brussels - Leuven - Lîdje) is going to link directly the airport on a straight line and includes a specially dedicated stopstation, will make possible to offer an efficient HS railway service to Germany. Trains from France can also be extended without being part of the national transport plan."

[longwings]

have made connections where I had to pick up my luggage and check it in again. I don't know how many people take a flight from company A to a certain airport and after that a flight from company B to their final destination. I wouldn't mind checking in my own bags at the airport after a train train ride. I think what's holding me back most is the "guarantee": if my train should be cancelled or delayed, so when I arrive more "just in time" at the airport, I should not have to worry about missing the flight. This might be through some kind of pick-up/fast guidance through check-in/security/... or an automatic rebooking to the next flight if it's shortly after.

Your experience may be different than mine but...

• At airports where luggage regularly need to be checked in again during a connection, distances are usually short; airlines have dedicated desks as close to luggage claim as possible; train stations tend to be quite further away from the luggage drop-off point
• It's also market-dependent: Brussels Airlines flies to CDG twice a day because Africa-bound passengers do not want to have to carry their - often voluminous - bags with them on the train and will fly another airline instead
• Air and train tickets are the same as airline tickets in case of connections: Two separate tickets bought in separate transactions, you're on your own; a single ticket and the carriers will help with missed connections

[fcw]

Your experience may be different than mine but...
It's also market-dependent: Brussels Airlines flies to CDG twice a day because Africa-bound passengers do not want to have to carry their - often voluminous - bags with them on the train and will fly another airline instead

Your point is a very good example of the opposite in fact! Africa passengers from CDG only take Brussels Airlines because it’s cheaper, thy are going through the hassle of a connection to save some money. There are even passengers taking the bus or train from Brussels to CDG to start their Africa trip, because altogether it’s a handful of euros cheaper than a direct flight from BRU.
Money is more important than hassle free connections, offer cheap trains to BRU and cheap flights from BRU and the passengers will follow. Look at CRL 15-20 years ago, hardly connected to anything but the cheap FR flights attracted numerous passengers from neighbouring countries.

[Passenger]

Brussels Airlines is an airline. Brussels Airport is an airport. Both don't have to act as PR for German, Swiss or French railways.

Brussels Airlines regards trains as an excellent feeder for their flights. Apart from Liège, connections are good.

For Brussels Airport, it's dual: passengers who come by train, don't use the airport parkings. Thus less parking fees. But an easy railways access to an airport attracks more passengers = more traffic, connections, airlines, etc. For Brussels Airport, additional international trains (like Basel or Strasbourg) won't bring in enough extra passengers to justify another investment. For the NMBS/SNCB, it's different: they are state owned, where Return-on-Investment is no priority.

KLM's new CEO also pointed to the importance of railways as feeder:

.

[convair]

There are even passengers taking the bus or train from Brussels to CDG to start their Africa trip, because altogether it’s a handful of euros cheaper than a direct flight from BRU.

It works in both directions. And the savings are even higher if you travel Business class:

Traveling to Montreal years ago, I often used AF from CDG with a combined AF ticket from Brussels-South railway station. A French colleague living close to Paris took the Thalys train early in the morning from Paris-Nord station to Brussels-Midi, the joined me and other colleagues on the Thalys back to CDG. For his employer, this little detour represented a saving of several hundred € on a return ticket in Business class, as the CDG-YUL fare was much higher than the Brussels-Midi-CDG-YUL fare. On the return trip, he skipped the CDG-Brussels-Paris trip though.

[Atlantis]

The latest info about this HST topic, the current minister of mobility don't want a high speed train at Brussels Airport. Understand who can understand.
And on top this, he is member of the Green Party. Completely rediculous

[PttU]

For Brussels Airport, it's dual: passengers who come by train, don't use the airport parkings.

What about the Diablo-surcharge? Is that only for the NMBS (or infrabel), or does part of it go to Brussels Airport?

[Lux_avi]

"study by European aviation associations", Who paid for that "study"? Everything in the title...

There are other way than gaz to produce electricity.

Intermodality is the future, why do you think DB the german railway is now getting closer to star alliance...

Who pays for the studies that make you believe "intermodality" is the future?

[TLspotting]

The latest info about this HST topic, the current minister of mobility don't want a high speed train at Brussels Airport. Understand who can understand.
And on top this, he is member of the Green Party. Completely rediculous

I've told more about the situation as he described it a week ago earlier in the topic. Feel free to have a look.