Brussels Airlines in 2020

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Conti764 »

Actually the entire discussion about the nationalization is pretty obsolete since there is no plan to so whatsoever. Not for SN, definately not for TUI.

I stay convinced it should be about saving as much jobs as possible. In that regard it should be SN and Tui Belgium that need priority and only then, if possible, Air Belgium.

But, as always in this country, you have to keep on eye on both communities. SN is by some already (wrongfuly) considered as a Flemish airline and BRU as a Flemish airport. Pouring money into SN only will not be accepted.

Flanker3
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Joined: 04 Feb 2018, 00:20

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Flanker3 »

Conti764 wrote: 04 Apr 2020, 11:14 Actually the entire discussion about the nationalization is pretty obsolete since there is no plan to so whatsoever. Not for SN, definately not for TUI.

I stay convinced it should be about saving as much jobs as possible. In that regard it should be SN and Tui Belgium that need priority and only then, if possible, Air Belgium.

But, as always in this country, you have to keep on eye on both communities. SN is by some already (wrongfuly) considered as a Flemish airline and BRU as a Flemish airport. Pouring money into SN only will not be accepted.
Well then, they should start to plan for a nationalisation.
LH will have their hands full saving LH Passage, Eurowings and if possible LX. The Swiss already said that they don't want to help a German-owned airline but are willing to take back LX.
The Germans will also have their hands full trying to save VW, Daimler, BMW, Allianz, Deutsche Bank, Airbus, Siemens, so there will be no room for even a thought on Brussels Airlines.
The only way the Gemans will save anything in BRU is by sending EW aircraft and crews and reducing the Brussels fleet by half, as an integral part of EW.

I have been very critical of SN under LH management, I have also been critical of Gustin in his early years as CEO when he didn't know what he was doing. I was right in most instances and SN got no-where, restructuring after restructuring after restructuring.
So when such a critic says that a nationalisation is the only proper alternative to liquidation, you better listen and take note.

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Poiu »

Inquirer wrote: 04 Apr 2020, 09:37De Standaard reports today that this 'best pupil of the class' like you lovingly call TUI Airlines Belgium is asking for a whopping €250M, so clearly 'best in class' doesn't mean that much either witin a group which has been given 1,8BN Euro from the German government as well.

It's really had for you to let go of long established feelings for certain airlines, isn't it?
I've advised you yesterday to simply forget about the name on the file as well as the past results of the company: just look at what they do and think about what is most precious in the period right after corona to get our economy back on its feet.
You forgot to mention that De Standaard also quotes several experts saying past performance DOES matter and those who were in trouble before Covid19 and whose business will still suffer a lot when we come out, should not be bailed out.
The question is of course: who will pay for all this? 500 million, TO START, to save 10000 jobs in aviation, whilst more than 1 million people are potentially loosing their jobs. 10.000 jobs of which maybe 5000 are lost anyway, there was already overcapacity in the market before the crisis and demand will, beyond any doubt, be even lower afterwards. Taxes will have to go up, businesses will struggle for years, household won’t have money for a second and third holiday,...
You need a crystal ball to predict the future, but it won’t be bright for sure. Predicting a better product makes me smile though, who is going to pay for it? Businessmen and cash strapped companies will be looking for cheaper travel and business class travel for VFR will take a big hit as many of those who could afford lost their jobs or a lot of money on the stock market.
Dumping 500 million in aviation today, without knowing when traffic will restart is simply irresponsible if you ask me. By all means, make different plans for different scenarios and get ready to invest once there is a bit of clarity about which direction this going, but don’t start to spend money, you don’t have, blindly. What was strategic yesterday maybe won’t be tomorrow and the opposite.
Unfortunately it will, more than probably, be those with the best political connections who will get the money.

Boavida
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Boavida »

Poiu wrote: 04 Apr 2020, 12:06 What was strategic yesterday maybe won’t be tomorrow and the opposite.
Can't we all agree that a home carrier as SN, which generates 40% of traffic at the second most important economic hub in the country, is strategic ?

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Poiu »

Boavida wrote: 04 Apr 2020, 16:25
Poiu wrote: 04 Apr 2020, 12:06 What was strategic yesterday maybe won’t be tomorrow and the opposite.
Can't we all agree that a home carrier as SN, which generates 40% of traffic at the second most important economic hub in the country, is strategic ?
Are transfer passengers strategic? At least 15% passengers of SN are transit passengers. Do you want to pay more taxes for the next twenty years to allow SN to transport Americans to the oil platforms in Luanda?
Connections with Africa were certainly strategic, but when will the flights to Africa be resuming? September at best? Next year? Spend 3 million a day during 6 months or a year for a maybe?
Does it need to be SN? I don’t see much happening before June or July, but during the holiday period TUI is certainly as strategic as SN.
A new strategic set up could enter the market in September, one without dragging an unrecoverable debt of a billion in their accounts.
Can’t we all agree that, as it could be months before commercial aviation restarts, limiting the options to SN would be narrow minded, especially because they will only be a shadow of themselves when/if they come out of this.
Last edited by Poiu on 04 Apr 2020, 17:17, edited 4 times in total.

brusselsairlinesfan
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Joined: 29 Mar 2007, 14:44

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by brusselsairlinesfan »

Boavida wrote: 04 Apr 2020, 16:25
Poiu wrote: 04 Apr 2020, 12:06 What was strategic yesterday maybe won’t be tomorrow and the opposite.
Can't we all agree that a home carrier as SN, which generates 40% of traffic at the second most important economic hub in the country, is strategic ?
Indeed...

PttU
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Joined: 24 Nov 2015, 15:07

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by PttU »

I can agree SN is important.
I'm not saying SN shouldn't be saved. But Thalys and NMBS/SNCF also have a heavily reduced schedule, limited revenue and high (personnel) costs. Those might ask for financial support too, and as a Euro can only be spent once, train companies have the advantage over plane companies to have a more "green" image...

DeltaWiskey
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by DeltaWiskey »

Poiu wrote: 04 Apr 2020, 16:47 At least 15% passengers of SN are transit passengers.
Please get your numbers right. Brussels Airport had 72,904 transit passengers in 2019, even if all of them would have flown with SN, that would mean that 0,7% of their passengers are transit.

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Poiu »

DeltaWiskey wrote: 04 Apr 2020, 18:31
Poiu wrote: 04 Apr 2020, 16:47 At least 15% passengers of SN are transit passengers.
Please get your numbers right. Brussels Airport had 72,904 transit passengers in 2019, even if all of them would have flown with SN, that would mean that 0,7% of their passengers are transit.
Sorry I meant transfer passengers, as I wrote in the question preceding your quote: are transfer passengers strategic?
There were 2,3 million of them in 2019 in BRU. Assuming 2/3 of them flew with SN, 15% would be correct.

https://www.brusselsairport.be/pressroo ... r-flights/

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Conti764 »

Poiu wrote: 04 Apr 2020, 16:47 Are transfer passengers strategic? At least 15% passengers of SN are transit passengers. Do you want to pay more taxes for the next twenty years to allow SN to transport Americans to the oil platforms in Luanda?
Yes, I do.

Because those Americans are flown in by companies who would, without SN, cut or at least heavily trim down their schedule to BRU.

And those companies have planes that need to be handled by Belgians, refueled by Belgians, cleaned by Belgians, need catering made and transported by Belgians with ingredients delivered from Belgium,...

Take the 3 UA flights at BRU - sometimes 2 B77E's and 1 781... How many people are involved in turning around those aircraft, plus the A333 of AC and soon a second AC-plane on select days? On top of the SN planes itself? Plus the other airlines (TG and soon SQ) who fly to BRU because it's (considered) a *A-hub due to SN's presence?

You're not just saveguarding 10.000 direct aviation jobs at SN and TB... You're saving many more.

Pocahontas
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Pocahontas »

I am good at fifa 20 on playstation. Does that make me a good soccer manager. We don’t have enough information to say anything useful. Only guessing...
We are nothing but wannabees, don’t forget that. Otherwise I would be earning big money now iso posting on luchtzak. Have a beer, enjoy the weekend, you guys don’t decide what happens (fortunately)! Skoll

rwandan-flyer
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by rwandan-flyer »

NAS - National Aviation Services
·

NAS Uganda (formerly known as ENHAS) handled the first Brussels Airways flight to depart from the Entebbe International Airport since suspension of commercial flights from Uganda on 22nd March 2020. NAS provided full ground handling and cargo services for the Boeing 777 carrying 235 EU evacuees to Brussels, Belgium. Previously, NAS Uganda also handled two evacuation flights each for Qatar Airways and KLM carrying around 800 passengers in total.

#NASGlobal #NAS #ENHAS #Entebbe #Uganda #Africa #BrusselsAirways #Brussels #Belgium #EntebbeInternationalAirport #GroundHandling #CargoManagement #Cargo #Passengers #ProudToServe


You can see that, it's not a B777 on the pix, but an A330 https://www.facebook.com/nasglobal/post ... 7838092438

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Poiu »

Conti764 wrote: 04 Apr 2020, 19:24
Poiu wrote: 04 Apr 2020, 16:47 Are transfer passengers strategic? At least 15% passengers of SN are transit passengers. Do you want to pay more taxes for the next twenty years to allow SN to transport Americans to the oil platforms in Luanda?
Yes, I do.

Because those Americans are flown in by companies who would, without SN, cut or at least heavily trim down their schedule to BRU.

And those companies have planes that need to be handled by Belgians, refueled by Belgians, cleaned by Belgians, need catering made and transported by Belgians with ingredients delivered from Belgium,...

Take the 3 UA flights at BRU - sometimes 2 B77E's and 1 781... How many people are involved in turning around those aircraft, plus the A333 of AC and soon a second AC-plane on select days? On top of the SN planes itself? Plus the other airlines (TG and soon SQ) who fly to BRU because it's (considered) a *A-hub due to SN's presence?

You're not just saveguarding 10.000 direct aviation jobs at SN and TB... You're saving many more.
Because you are working at the airport, Joe Public couldn’t care less.
You make it sound as if UA would go from 3 to 0, that would not be the case it would be from 3 to 2.
What would be the difference if you had 2 UAs instead of three?
There are no 10000 direct jobs at SN and TB, 5000 at best the 10000 already take into account other jobs at the airport.

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Conti764 »

Poiu wrote: 04 Apr 2020, 19:41
Conti764 wrote: 04 Apr 2020, 19:24
Poiu wrote: 04 Apr 2020, 16:47 Are transfer passengers strategic? At least 15% passengers of SN are transit passengers. Do you want to pay more taxes for the next twenty years to allow SN to transport Americans to the oil platforms in Luanda?
Yes, I do.

Because those Americans are flown in by companies who would, without SN, cut or at least heavily trim down their schedule to BRU.

And those companies have planes that need to be handled by Belgians, refueled by Belgians, cleaned by Belgians, need catering made and transported by Belgians with ingredients delivered from Belgium,...

Take the 3 UA flights at BRU - sometimes 2 B77E's and 1 781... How many people are involved in turning around those aircraft, plus the A333 of AC and soon a second AC-plane on select days? On top of the SN planes itself? Plus the other airlines (TG and soon SQ) who fly to BRU because it's (considered) a *A-hub due to SN's presence?

You're not just saveguarding 10.000 direct aviation jobs at SN and TB... You're saving many more.
Because you are working at the airport, Joe Public couldn’t care less.
You make it sound as if UA would go from 3 to 0, that would not be the case it would be from 3 to 2.
What would be the difference if you had 2 UAs instead of three?
There are no 10000 direct jobs at SN and TB, 5000 at best the 10000 already take into account other jobs at the airport.
Who cares about what job shouldn't be an issue. In the end everybody cares first and foremost about his own job.

UA might go from 3 to 2, but let's say 2 763's iso 781 or 77E would already make a difference. UA was just an example, but it's not limited to them only.

All I'm trying to say is to judge SN's imortance you need to look beyond the company itself. Which you already did but I'm afraid 10.000 would then be a bit low...

Passenger
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Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Passenger »

Pocahontas wrote: 04 Apr 2020, 19:35 I am good at fifa 20 on playstation. Does that make me a good soccer manager. We don’t have enough information to say anything useful. Only guessing...
We are nothing but wannabees, don’t forget that. Otherwise I would be earning big money now iso posting on luchtzak. Have a beer, enjoy the weekend, you guys don’t decide what happens (fortunately)! Skoll
We can only guess? Absolutely true!! That's exactly what prof. Stijn Baert today said on Twitter and in a few newspaper articles: "at this moment, Madame Soleil (RIP) is as good as economists to predict what will happen".

(prof Baert: https://users.ugent.be/~sbaert/)

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Poiu »

Passenger wrote: 04 Apr 2020, 20:18 We can only guess? Absolutely true!! That's exactly what prof. Stijn Baert today said on Twitter and in a few newspaper articles: "at this moment, Madame Soleil (RIP) is as good as economists to predict what will happen".
Great minds think alike:
Poiu wrote: 04 Apr 2020, 12:06 You need a crystal ball to predict the future

rwandan-flyer
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Joined: 19 Dec 2010, 12:30

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by rwandan-flyer »

Hi.

Anyone knows, why Brussels Airlines is operating a flight between Kigali and Cologne ? Thanks https://www.flightradar24.com/BEL1042/2451cb66

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Conti764 »

rwandan-flyer wrote: 04 Apr 2020, 20:42 Hi.

Anyone knows, why Brussels Airlines is operating a flight between Kigali and Cologne ? Thanks https://www.flightradar24.com/BEL1042/2451cb66
Repatriation I guess.

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RoMax
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Joined: 20 Jun 2009, 16:32

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by RoMax »

Conti764 wrote: 04 Apr 2020, 20:57
rwandan-flyer wrote: 04 Apr 2020, 20:42 Hi.

Anyone knows, why Brussels Airlines is operating a flight between Kigali and Cologne ? Thanks https://www.flightradar24.com/BEL1042/2451cb66
Repatriation I guess.
There has also been a Lomé-Cologne repatriation flight - I believe for the German government (which isn't that weird as it's LHG, on African stations where LH itself doesn't operate).

Crosswind
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Joined: 25 Nov 2008, 13:25

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Crosswind »

Let's talk money, my friends. Extract from official Brussels Airlines annual report 2018, code 621 : 40.245.263€
Previous year (2017) : 37.999.192€

Total amount paid to Belgium in two years (fiscal) : 78.244.455€. 78 millions euros ! 18 millions above the 60 millions currently "lost" by the SFPI-FPIM

If one really insist, we can calculate the total amount of taxes since the start of SNBA... It's huge. If you only take 35 millions a year for 15 year, you get a final amount paid to the state of around 525 millions, about half a billion € ! Is this monkey's money peanuts?

Next to that, a lot more of interesting and juicy incomes can still be incorporated (tickets and sales, taxes on Brussels Airport benefice).

Now question : who will choose not to take 40 millions a year ++, 3000 active people, 10 millions passengers/potential customers/visitors) a strategic know-how/capacity? The amount paid by the governement is ridiculous for such benefits.

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