Still the question remains why the Belgian CAA is doing so difficult about granting this AOC? Is it badwill on their behalf, being protective or is it vlm not fulfilling some of the requirements?
All very vague and quiet.
Why does the Belgian CAA take so long to grant an AOC?
Moderator: Latest news team
Re: Brussels Airlines takes over Thomas Cook Airlines Belgium
Indeed. Just like for Air Belgium, it's not normal how long it takes for the Belgian CAA to approve or disapprove the two AOC requests.
Re: Brussels Airlines takes over Thomas Cook Airlines Belgium
As long as neither one of them completely fulfill the requirements of the BCAA, there is nothing "not normal" about it. VLM seems to have a very dubious business case to say to the least (at least based on the 'publicly known elements of it') and is headed by people that are quite notorious for several big failures in the airline industry. An AOC in Slovenia says nothing to me - nothing more than the absolute joy with Slovenian authorities thinking "oh yes, an airline with (Chinese) money with big plans in our country" - it maybe confirms that they are 'safe to operate', but I doubt that's the reason why they didn't get their AOC yet in Belgium.
For Air Belgium it might be related to the financial backing behind it (especially if the rumours about pulling back Chinese investor(s) is correct).
And before that question is raised again, yes a Civil Aviation Authority has and should have the full right to base their decisions on elements such as a seamingly unviable business case and/or insufficient or dubious financial funding. Each year numerous airlines around the world see their AOC's suspended (sometimes temporarily, sometimes permanently) because they are running out of money (but before they actually go bankrupt and/or before actual safety issues have taken place already), many of those are recent start-ups, so it's normal to be prudent.
It's also not because we don't hear anything about it, that there is no communication between the CAA and VLM/Air Belgium. Given the very careful communication about their AOC applications by both VLM and Air Belgium, I'm quite sure they know very well why it's taking so long and that they are doing their best to persuade the CAA that they do have a viable business case and/or sufficient, reliable and secured (for a sufficient amount of time) financial funding. It's normal that the CAA doesn't communicate publicly about what's going on. Such things are not supposed to be public procedures for parties that are not involved.
Re: Brussels Airlines takes over Thomas Cook Airlines Belgium
100% agree. As I said under the appropriate topicRoMax wrote: ↑01 Jun 2017, 22:42As long as neither one of them completely fulfill the requirements of the BCAA, there is nothing "not normal" about it. VLM seems to have a very dubious business case to say to the least (at least based on the 'publicly known elements of it') and is headed by people that are quite notorious for several big failures in the airline industry. An AOC in Slovenia says nothing to me - nothing more than the absolute joy with Slovenian authorities thinking "oh yes, an airline with (Chinese) money with big plans in our country" - it maybe confirms that they are 'safe to operate', but I doubt that's the reason why they didn't get their AOC yet in Belgium.
For Air Belgium it might be related to the financial backing behind it (especially if the rumours about pulling back Chinese investor(s) is correct).
And before that question is raised again, yes a Civil Aviation Authority has and should have the full right to base their decisions on elements such as a seamingly unviable business case and/or insufficient or dubious financial funding. Each year numerous airlines around the world see their AOC's suspended (sometimes temporarily, sometimes permanently) because they are running out of money (but before they actually go bankrupt and/or before actual safety issues have taken place already), many of those are recent start-ups, so it's normal to be prudent.
It's also not because we don't hear anything about it, that there is no communication between the CAA and VLM/Air Belgium. Given the very careful communication about their AOC applications by both VLM and Air Belgium, I'm quite sure they know very well why it's taking so long and that they are doing their best to persuade the CAA that they do have a viable business case and/or sufficient, reliable and secured (for a sufficient amount of time) financial funding. It's normal that the CAA doesn't communicate publicly about what's going on. Such things are not supposed to be public procedures for parties that are not involved.
, an AOC should remain a hard thing to get: setting up an airline is not opening a newsstand or a "fritkot".-
DeltaWiskey
- Posts: 594
- Joined: 13 Oct 2010, 18:33
Re: Brussels Airlines takes over Thomas Cook Airlines Belgium
I do not agree, it should be quite "easy" and transparent on how to obtain an AOC. If something is not in order during the application process, it should be clear what the issue is and what you have to proof. Imo, it is not the job of the BCAA to judge a business plan. From my own experience, the BCAA leaves you in the dark and then you have to guess what they expect to see. It should not be about the requirements of the BCAA, it should be about the law! The BCAA only has to check that you act in acccordance with the law.
Only when insufficient fundings causes an unsafe situation or a violation of the law, that a licence should be revoked. (I am not saying that an incident has to take place befeore it should be revoked). As long as that is not the case, I don't see the problem.
Tbh, I am quite offended (as a European citizen) that you denigrate the Slovenian Authorities when they have to follow exactly the same set of rules as the Belgian Authorities. Slovenia is an EASA country like Belgium, it is not a corrupt third world country.
Only when insufficient fundings causes an unsafe situation or a violation of the law, that a licence should be revoked. (I am not saying that an incident has to take place befeore it should be revoked). As long as that is not the case, I don't see the problem.
Tbh, I am quite offended (as a European citizen) that you denigrate the Slovenian Authorities when they have to follow exactly the same set of rules as the Belgian Authorities. Slovenia is an EASA country like Belgium, it is not a corrupt third world country.
Re: Brussels Airlines takes over Thomas Cook Airlines Belgium
I'm not saying the BCAA is perfect, far from it. But unless you work for VLM or Air Belgium, you (just like all the rest of us) don't know and don't have a reason to know what's going on. Transparancy is not the strongest point of any type of national autority if you ask me, so that's not unique to the BCAA anyway 
Anyway, I stay with my point that it is not abnormal that it's difficult to obtain an AOC, especially when you have a dubious business plan and/or uncertain financial funding. And again, yes a CAA has to authority to judge on that, in every country they do. "Only checking if they are in accordance with law" - exactly and that includes specific demands in terms of financing etc. and in some cases it can be quite unclear where exactly tha money is coming from and if it is in fact as assured as request for a new start-up airline (as in e.g. an X number of days that you have to be able to fully finance your operations without a single Euro of revenue).
About their Slovenian AOC. I'm not doubting that they are working fully according to EASA regulations, especially when it comes to pure safety (I also clearly said that I don't think that's the reason they didn't get their AOC's in Belgium yet). But although I don't know their exact nation interpretation of the EASA regulations, I'm quite sure the BCAA has stricter procedures when it comes to elements of financing etc. while in Slovenia it's likely nothing more than the pure basics of what EASA requires. That should be sufficient yes indeed, but seeing how many airlines fail in Europe each year (mostly small ones, but still) even during very good years in the industry...Belgium has had it's share of small and big bankruptcies in the industry, I think the BCAA has all the right to be strict if they have doubts about financing and related to that the viability of the business plan.
There is a very big grey zone on where money and strategy is whether or not influencing safety. EASA is providing a strict and safe framework which I fully respect, but certain national CAA's go further and I also understand that. I agree there needs to be transparancy between the CAA and the airline involved (but do you really know how the procedure between the BCAA and VLM/AB is going?! I don't think so, even though you might have experience with the BCAA - which btw has some 'divisions' with their own 'specific dynamics' to call it like that), but I don't think an AOC should be "easy" to obtain, not at all. There are too many failures in this industry of which many have shown later that they were putting safety at risk once their money sources started to dry up very soon after starting operations.
Anyway, I stay with my point that it is not abnormal that it's difficult to obtain an AOC, especially when you have a dubious business plan and/or uncertain financial funding. And again, yes a CAA has to authority to judge on that, in every country they do. "Only checking if they are in accordance with law" - exactly and that includes specific demands in terms of financing etc. and in some cases it can be quite unclear where exactly tha money is coming from and if it is in fact as assured as request for a new start-up airline (as in e.g. an X number of days that you have to be able to fully finance your operations without a single Euro of revenue).
About their Slovenian AOC. I'm not doubting that they are working fully according to EASA regulations, especially when it comes to pure safety (I also clearly said that I don't think that's the reason they didn't get their AOC's in Belgium yet). But although I don't know their exact nation interpretation of the EASA regulations, I'm quite sure the BCAA has stricter procedures when it comes to elements of financing etc. while in Slovenia it's likely nothing more than the pure basics of what EASA requires. That should be sufficient yes indeed, but seeing how many airlines fail in Europe each year (mostly small ones, but still) even during very good years in the industry...Belgium has had it's share of small and big bankruptcies in the industry, I think the BCAA has all the right to be strict if they have doubts about financing and related to that the viability of the business plan.
There is a very big grey zone on where money and strategy is whether or not influencing safety. EASA is providing a strict and safe framework which I fully respect, but certain national CAA's go further and I also understand that. I agree there needs to be transparancy between the CAA and the airline involved (but do you really know how the procedure between the BCAA and VLM/AB is going?! I don't think so, even though you might have experience with the BCAA - which btw has some 'divisions' with their own 'specific dynamics' to call it like that), but I don't think an AOC should be "easy" to obtain, not at all. There are too many failures in this industry of which many have shown later that they were putting safety at risk once their money sources started to dry up very soon after starting operations.
Re: Brussels Airlines takes over Thomas Cook Airlines Belgium
Does it have to be clear or does it have to be public? Your previous experiences with the BCAA don't matter in this case: it's perfectly possible Air Belgium and VLM have received clear feedback from the BCAA, but they (nor the BCAA themselve) share it publicly. From AB and VLM's perspective, I wouldn't share too much either: it might give the other one too much information, and showing the public your weaknesses is seldom good publicity.DeltaWiskey wrote: ↑02 Jun 2017, 22:39 If something is not in order during the application process, it should be clear what the issue is and what you have to proof. Imo, it is not the job of the BCAA to judge a business plan. From my own experience, the BCAA leaves you in the dark and then you have to guess what they expect to see. It should not be about the requirements of the BCAA, it should be about the law! The BCAA only has to check that you act in acccordance with the law.
On the other hand: if they didn't get clear feedback, it's difficult to publicly blame BCAA for the dealy as they still have to judge over you... Don't bite the hand that feeds you
Re: Brussels Airlines takes over Thomas Cook Airlines Belgium
This matter should be discussed under another topic really, but our "Dear Moderator" is traveling today I understand.
I just want to add to RoMax' and PttU's posts that, in Belgium, you have to draw up a business plan when you create a Company under the form of NV/SA (more or less equivalent to Corporation or plc I think). It is an integral part of the Constitutive Act drawn by a Notary Public and, as such, it has to be accepted by her/him.
Granted, every Notary Public has her/his own appreciation on the validity of a business presented by wood-be shareholders.
However, the problem encountered by VLM and/or Air Belgium might be related to that(???).
I'm not a lawyer though, so members who actually happen to be lawyers might want to add/correct a few details.
I just want to add to RoMax' and PttU's posts that, in Belgium, you have to draw up a business plan when you create a Company under the form of NV/SA (more or less equivalent to Corporation or plc I think). It is an integral part of the Constitutive Act drawn by a Notary Public and, as such, it has to be accepted by her/him.
Granted, every Notary Public has her/his own appreciation on the validity of a business presented by wood-be shareholders.
However, the problem encountered by VLM and/or Air Belgium might be related to that(???).
I'm not a lawyer though, so members who actually happen to be lawyers might want to add/correct a few details.
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DeltaWiskey
- Posts: 594
- Joined: 13 Oct 2010, 18:33
Re: Brussels Airlines takes over Thomas Cook Airlines Belgium
I agree this has to be discussed in a different topic.
If the source of the funds are dubious, it should indeed be investigated. There are other national bodies with much more financial know-how and resources than the BCAA, it should be investigated by them instead.
@PttU: I said it has to be clear, not public.
I find it strange that you all seem to think: more and stricter rules = better (but not necessarily safer). It works anti-competitively, certainly in aviation. As we all know competition is good for the customers, but also the companies themselves. Brussels Airlines did a good job in re-inventing itself when it was attacked by the LCC's in recent years.
If the source of the funds are dubious, it should indeed be investigated. There are other national bodies with much more financial know-how and resources than the BCAA, it should be investigated by them instead.
@PttU: I said it has to be clear, not public.
I find it strange that you all seem to think: more and stricter rules = better (but not necessarily safer). It works anti-competitively, certainly in aviation. As we all know competition is good for the customers, but also the companies themselves. Brussels Airlines did a good job in re-inventing itself when it was attacked by the LCC's in recent years.
Re: Brussels Airlines takes over Thomas Cook Airlines Belgium
I heard your call and moved all the out-of-topic posts to a new thread.
But what the hell are the other moderators doing when I am travelling?
André
ex Sabena #26567
ex Sabena #26567
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Bracebrace
- Posts: 273
- Joined: 04 Apr 2006, 00:00
Re: Why does the Belgian CAA take so long to grant an AOC?
As far as Air Belgium is concerned, Terzakis has already denied the delay is due to BCAA, contrary to press articles.
Re: Why does the Belgian CAA take so long to grant an AOC?
Did anyone of you read the book from Freddy Van Gaever 'Luchtvaart,een feest?' ?Still the question remains why the Belgian CAA is doing so difficult about granting this AOC? Is it badwill on their behalf, being protective or is it vlm not fulfilling some of the requirements?
All very vague and quiet.
In his book,FVG describes his difficulties to obtain an AOC from the BCAA for VG-airlines.
15 years ago,but is seems the problem is still there.Still no transparancy and no clear specifications with regard to what is exactly needed to obtain an AOC and what is needed in which stage of the process,let alone clear timelines...
