VLM Airlines news 2016

[Didymus]

Freddy Van Gaever?

[Flanker2]

I totally dissagree... Odyssey airlines gathered 6 million euros through crowdfunding in a month!
Nobody knew them and the only thing they had was a dodgy website!

Who is Odyssey Airlines? I just researched it and IMO going by their ambitions, they will be bankrupt before they even launch. In fact, going by their fleet choice I already put a cross on them.
The CS100 is a mistake that carriers like LX and DL can afford, but even LX backtracked and converted some to the CS300 and DL has that option too.
Also, it's not like LCY is handing out slots to about anybody with a 7-figure bank account.

Gustin recently said that airlines are not about "airplanes first and the rest will follow". In fact, I think that the single most important thing for an airline is marketing, followed by the network, the pricing and the product.
The aircraft appears only in the last two, where they affect the pricing and the product.

BRU-EIN? 87 kilometers separate these two. Is anybody going to take a plane for such a short distance? It's not like there's a sea separating the two

We have had this debate with Tolipaebas in the past about Lille. Lille is also 130 km by car from BRU.
It's not about the distance from BRU. It's about how close from their point of origin pax can get into the airline's network.
Also, BRU-EIN may be 87km by air, but it's 130km and 1,5 hours by car.
1. Not everyone owns a car. Public transportation between EIN and BRU is a mess.
2. Not everyone who owns a car wants to pay expensive airport parking.
3. 1,5 hours by car means that you have to leave your office or home 5 hours before your flight. You lose an entire day even for a short intra-EU travel. If there is a flight at a nearby airport, you save half a day, an entire day per return trip. Time is money.
4. Those of you who had to go to LIL to catch their VY flights will now that even though Lille is close on paper, it's too far to be convenient, especially if you have to connect to get somewhere.You are already tired before your trip has even begun. EvGG to catch a SN flight must have been a huge inconvenience.
5. Regional airports can give marketing incentives, subsidies and are underserved by network carriers.

[Flanker2]

Freddy Van Gaever?

Although he is one of the few competent aviation tycoons in Belgium, wouldn't he be a bit too old for this?
Developping an airline requires quite a lot of energy.
Sure, VG was one of his babies, but even then, the VG of back then had more favorable parameters to work with than the VG today. It will be a hell of a task for him to put enough capital together today as the business contacts of his generation are retired and inactive.
Aviation is a business wherein you need to get a lot of people moving to get things done.
I know a retired entrepreneur who is a close friend of Van Gaever but he too is old and his former multi-million company is now even bankrupt. Although he still has plenty of wealth, I just don't see Van Gaever coming to him today and him forking anything out.

Also, after the Delsey Airlines fiasco, I'm sure that he's fed up about coming to the Belgian aviation industry's rescue. He was pushed away in favor of Davignon's coallition which resulted in the current SN.

[Didymus]

It is nevertheless Van Gaever anyway: http://www.tijd.be/nieuws/archief/VLM_s ... 6-1615.art

[cathay belgium]

Hi,
Booking for a daytrip with VLM as support for AVGeeks ?
No thanks, I lost some money already this year in a bankrupted company..
No risk, If you like to fly VLM now without risking losing your money, book with Cityjet...
If they go bankrupt you maybe end flying a Sukhoi in a few days haha..
If LH sees future in VLM, the best is let them go bankrupt
Take everything over and start it up themselves, but why would they take over plus 20 year old planes when they let even SN not getting anything less then an A319 !
I agree with the other members, ANR has proven that there is no need in sheduled biz flights from ANR except LCY...and really BRU is only a step further with better facilities....
Biz jets and some allround Jetair leisure flights, for giving BRU more space to grow biz can be their future.... thats all....
They are dealing with the same dreams and same problems and same ideas as MST....
Ruhrarea, need of biz pax, good connections to LHR,TXL,etc...
The truth is ... there isn't any...
CXB

[SLM]

Freddy Van Gaever (today) in Gazet Van Antwerpen.

[Passenger]

Well, De Tijd and Gazet van Antwerpen have the reply to Flanker's stupid remark that Van Gaever is too old. He isn't. Let me assure you that he is already working on his plan since a few months = when the financial results from the LGG fiasco came in. His biggest hurdle so far was... the green light from the wife.

As Freddy Van Gaever says: we now have to wait till we know what the trade court will decide. Contrary to what the trade unions say in the media, the trade court may well give VLM protection against creditors. The court recieved a recent annual account and a recovery plan - and only that matters. Sure, the debts are high, but we're talking here about an established company with a +30m consolidated turnover.

[sn26567]

Oh no! Not Freddy Van Gaever! He has a history of failures...

[sean1982]

I totally dissagree... Odyssey airlines gathered 6 million euros through crowdfunding in a month!
Nobody knew them and the only thing they had was a dodgy website!

Who is Odyssey Airlines? I just researched it and IMO going by their ambitions, they will be bankrupt before they even launch. In fact, going by their fleet choice I already put a cross on them.
The CS100 is a mistake that carriers like LX and DL can afford, but even LX backtracked and converted some to the CS300 and DL has that option too.
Also, it's not like LCY is handing out slots to about anybody with a 7-figure bank account.

Gustin recently said that airlines are not about "airplanes first and the rest will follow". In fact, I think that the single most important thing for an airline is marketing, followed by the network, the pricing and the product.
The aircraft appears only in the last two, where they affect the pricing and the product.

BRU-EIN? 87 kilometers separate these two. Is anybody going to take a plane for such a short distance? It's not like there's a sea separating the two

We have had this debate with Tolipaebas in the past about Lille. Lille is also 130 km by car from BRU.
It's not about the distance from BRU. It's about how close from their point of origin pax can get into the airline's network.
Also, BRU-EIN may be 87km by air, but it's 130km and 1,5 hours by car.
1. Not everyone owns a car. Public transportation between EIN and BRU is a mess.
2. Not everyone who owns a car wants to pay expensive airport parking.
3. 1,5 hours by car means that you have to leave your office or home 5 hours before your flight. You lose an entire day even for a short intra-EU travel. If there is a flight at a nearby airport, you save half a day, an entire day per return trip. Time is money.
4. Those of you who had to go to LIL to catch their VY flights will now that even though Lille is close on paper, it's too far to be convenient, especially if you have to connect to get somewhere.You are already tired before your trip has even begun. EvGG to catch a SN flight must have been a huge inconvenience.
5. Regional airports can give marketing incentives, subsidies and are underserved by network carriers.

Flanker seriously, you couldnt be more wrong figures for FR in BRU indicate that about 30% of pax are from the netherlands. And not just from the border region either. People dont care to drive a bit further for SN, FR, whoever if the price and facilities are right. There is no market for these short flights whatsoever. Nobody is going to want to make a stopover of a few hours in BRU just to take a european flight when so many direct flights are available in this catchment area

[Flanker2]

Flanker seriously, you couldnt be more wrong figures for FR in BRU indicate that about 30% of pax are from the netherlands. And not just from the border region either. People dont care to drive a bit further for SN, FR, whoever if the price and facilities are right. There is no market for these short flights whatsoever. Nobody is going to want to make a stopover of a few hours in BRU just to take a european flight when so many direct flights are available in this catchment area

You are not wrong, and I'm not wrong, because we are talking about different markets here.
I see a lot of Dutch people in BRU but also in CRL. Most are leisure flyers from Southern Holland who don't mind wasting an entire day on the road to reach a destination in Europe.
But network carriers like SN are not interested in low-yield shorthaul connections. It simply doesn't make sense to offer a feeding flight. Building a regional network is essential though to catch higher yielding shorthaul business pax operating out of smaller cities, but also leisure and business longhaul pax to feed routes like Africa and North America.
For instance, people living around EIN who want to go to JFK. They can more easily use public transport to go to AMS or DUS and then catch a direct flight. How do you convince those people to fly with SN anyway? A F50 feeding flight is a very strong argument to chose for BRU and SN instead.


I'm all for Van Gaver, because he is one of the few competent aviation entrepreneurs in Belgium.
My concerns remain valid though, he is pushing 80 and the aviation industry today is much more advanced than it used to be 20 years ago. For one thing, the sales channel has strongly shifted towards the internet, and that's something that people from his generation have a difficulty keeping up with.
In fact, I think that besided government resistance, the second largest reason for the failure of Delsey is that they were too reliant on travel agencies where others at the time like VEX were pushing the internet.

[Avnu]

Let's just say that when it comes to outspoken people with big ideas, it's often a matter of who they surround themselves with and whether or not they're willing to take advice from others.

Clearly, FVG is not going to run this all by himself or with a small team of other almost 80-year olds. The team has been put in place over the last year or so and is - almost by necessity - much larger and more diverse than that.

As for whether Van Gaever can truly take advice from others... I don't know But if VLM can go from a company with a whole lot of very vague business ideas to one with a clear focus, well, that's an improvement already, no?

[saratoga]

http://www.gva.be/cnt/dmf20160514_02289 ... r-te-nemen

Perhaps starting again after a bankruptcy is giving higher chances to survive??

[Didymus]

Not perhaps, but only in the case of bankruptcy. Why would an investor as Van Gaever take over the debts if he could start with a clean slate? The staff would also get new contracts, probably with more flexible labour conditions.

[Passenger]

My concerns remain valid though, he is pushing 80 and the aviation industry today is much more advanced than it used to be 20 years ago. For one thing, the sales channel has strongly shifted towards the internet, and that's something that people from his generation have a difficulty keeping up with.

Invalid concerns. But expectable, with Google (or Wiki?) as your usual, only source. Let me assure you: FVG uses his tablet to update his own blog whilst waiting for his next flight, and meanwhile he checks Flightradar when exactly the aircraft will arrive. He skypes with his daughter in the US daily. So: no, he has no problem with "the internet". Today's health condition is good, though he won't be able to run from the check-in desk to the gate. But his preferred seat still isn't 1A but the jump seat.

"Pushing 80"? David Attenborough turned 90 last weekend and he has just started the recordings from his new tv series BBC Earth 2.

...but only in the case of bankruptcy. Why would an investor as Van Gaever take over the debts if he could start with a clean slate? The staff would also get new contracts, probably with more flexible labour conditions.

Indeed. FVG won't step in to negociate with KBC about montly payments for 3 or 6 mio. And he knows one cannot negociate with the Belgian social security administration. But if the trade court declares VLM bankrupt, he will invite the liquidator for a lunch or dinner that same day.

Maybe the staff will get new and more flexible labour conditions, but I don't think that will be necessary. VLM's salary problem from the past is not crew and ground staff, but the top. Both of the them...

[cathay belgium]

Hi,

FVG might still be a strong name, I hope he takes over VLM when it goes bankrupt...
Hoping sooner then later because a short pain is better for a dying thing...
If he wants to choose to fly the yellow lion again, no problem for me ...
A stronger flemish brand can maybe attract more antwerp pax. haha..
But the thing remains... what route options will FVG have after all we saw in the past...
LCY stays cityjet,... and with the ssj comin' in why no old avros in anr on their own ?
GVA,MAN,TXL,Southampton didn't work...
HAM.. and the Friederichhafn maybe worked but only because of the old paid off planes...
Without a needed fleet replacement that have to happen soon after the startup...
will this thing still works with ATR,D8 leases on a much higher cost ?
Don't expect any help from SN,LH... on the contrary ..
If there was any future in ANR, FlyBe should have opened it up already...

Hoping for the best, fearing the worst here... would glad to see VLM rise like a phoenix again
Still prefer an Air Belgium after life

CXB

[sn26567]

When Van Gaever accuses the current management of big mistakes, he really makes me laugh. Did he not launch Erevan-Brussels with a Delsey A330? How would you call that?

And, as Lex mentioned earlier, if VLM could not make ANR-GVA a success (they were right in launch the route, but they failed miserably in not making it work), which routes can be successful out of ANR, except LCY which is the sole hands of CityJet? Van Gaever is wrong when he says that the GVA route was a mistake. Which other routes does he see as having a potential?

In brief, I don't see Van Gaever saving VLM...

[lumumba]

They have to code share with bigger airlines and bring passangers from the Antwerp region to a big hub or hubs.

If there seat/kilometers is competitive it will work.

[Passenger]

Did he not launch Erevan-Brussels with a Delsey A330? How would you call that?

He had a contract with a local agency (think it was for 70 or 90 seats), enough for a basic feeder. Once that contract was broken up, Erevan ended.

When Van Gaever accuses the current management of big mistakes, he really makes me laugh.

Actually he blames them for mistakes (the LGG saga) and he accuses them for mismanagement (a polite word for Witteboordcriminaliteit). It is legal that CEO's are remunerated through their own consultancy company. However, the amounts on some invoices were abnormally high for a company with high debts. I've heard that story a first time a few weeks after operations at LGG were ended, and gossip spread out because staff and crew were very unhappy about the way B & W mismanaged LGG. Newspaper De Tijd also has its sources about those invoices, and they published an amount (yesterday or today).

[carllegein]

Mr Van Gaever is perfectly fit for the job, And so are his partners. His partners combine hundreds of years of experience And some of them are managing the finest firms in Aviation today!

[Flanker2]

My concerns remain valid though, he is pushing 80 and the aviation industry today is much more advanced than it used to be 20 years ago. For one thing, the sales channel has strongly shifted towards the internet, and that's something that people from his generation have a difficulty keeping up with.

Invalid concerns. But expectable, with Google (or Wiki?) as your usual, only source. Let me assure you: FVG uses his tablet to update his own blog whilst waiting for his next flight, and meanwhile he checks Flightradar when exactly the aircraft will arrive. He skypes with his daughter in the US daily. So: no, he has no problem with "the internet". Today's health condition is good, though he won't be able to run from the check-in desk to the gate. But his preferred seat still isn't 1A but the jump seat.

"Pushing 80"? David Attenborough turned 90 last weekend and he has just started the recordings from his new tv series BBC Earth 2.

...but only in the case of bankruptcy. Why would an investor as Van Gaever take over the debts if he could start with a clean slate? The staff would also get new contracts, probably with more flexible labour conditions.

Indeed. FVG won't step in to negociate with KBC about montly payments for 3 or 6 mio. And he knows one cannot negociate with the Belgian social security administration. But if the trade court declares VLM bankrupt, he will invite the liquidator for a lunch or dinner that same day.

Maybe the staff will get new and more flexible labour conditions, but I don't think that will be necessary. VLM's salary problem from the past is not crew and ground staff, but the top. Both of the them...

Oh believe me Passenger, you seem very close to all of this. I don't know the guy personally, but a friend does, so that's all I can say. Surrounding yourself with the righ people helps, but where do you find such people in Belgium? There are really few people who know what they're doing at this scale.
I really don't see any plausible turn-around strategy that involves keeping them a regional Belgian airline, except under SN.
Also, unlike the aftermath of the Sabena insolvency, the current Belgian market is saturated with airlines.

The staff's labour conditions are the least of the concerns.
To relaunch an airline the size of VLM you need a 8 figure capital budget and I don't see many people with thir wallets in their hands to invest that kind of money. In addition, his political agenda might dissuade many people to do that.

I really wonder if SN is going to sight tight and do nothing, this is their opportunity.
I'm sure that there will be so meetings about it.

Van Gaever knows aviation, but it's a whole different ballgame between using your ipad to twitter and conducting sales and marketing online. It's like saying that frequent flyers use airplanes so often that they could hop into the cockpit and fly it. Marketing and selling flights online is a specialty in itself and it's a merciless world out there.
So if he indeed goes ahead with this, I think that this will make the difference between success and failure.