Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL downed near Donetsk, Ukraine

[LJ]

In the above Youtube you hear Marie Harf repeatedly say "we know that the "pro-Russian separatists have SS11" (= the Buks). I conclude two possibilities about those repeated U.S. statements:

1. Marie Harf is right: they knew it. But then, why didn't the USA strongly advised ICAO to close Ukrain airspace? Why did the USA allowed hundreds of civilian aircraft to fly above 6 km, thus within range of those Buks missiles? If the USA knew that the rebels had Buk's, their silence about that is criminal negligence.

2. Marie Harf lies: the "pro-Russians separatists" did not have Buks. But then, who shot down MH-17? The most obvious then is one of the three Ukrain Su-25 jets (as reported by the Spanish ATC working in Kiev, on Twitter, BEFORE MH-11 crashed). Another possibility is an error during "Sea Breeze", the joint Ukrain-USA annual exercise, which happened to take place this year from... 10-17 July 2014.

(I personally think that the USA were sure that that rebels had no Buks. The CIA is in Ukrain since April, so their drones know every square inch of Eastern Ukrain by now)

BA decided not to fly over the designated zone based on information they had (or at least that's what they claimed) at that time. If the British had the information I would expect the Americans would have had it as well, thus making possibilty 1 likely.

[regi]

N Korea also barks at US and west a lot, this is not to say i trust all what US or its media has to say, but why would I trust the guy who runs North Korea? Would you?

I rather trust the rulers of North-Korea when it comes to vital issues such as nuclear deterrant.
Untill today, there is only 1 nation that has used atomic weapons, once, twice in war purely against civilians.
The current NK leader is the grandson of the man who was threatened to get nuked by MacArthur, on orders of his president Truman.
Kennedy was prepared to launch a nuclear strike on Cuba.
During the Vietnam war, the Madman theory was launched on the North-Vietnamese to make them believe that Nixon would nuke them. Later on, it turned out that the use of nukes has been a very close call in Vietnam. ( in case you forgot: Nixon stepped down because he was a criminal.)

If that is all too long gone, please remember the words of Bush who said that every military option would remain open if Iraq would use chemical weapons. It was the second time in history, after Truman, that a US president used this language.
So yes, I do have more trust in a president of a nation and idiology that has not used nukes in reality.

[sn26567]

Let's remain on topic, please: MH17 !

[sn26567]

A document published yesterday by the Dutch government:

Green: examined by investigators
Orange: dangerous zone
Red: access prohibited
Yellow dots: fragments of the plane

[Passenger]

There is an update from the Dutch Safety Board = the main investigation team into the cause of the crash. At this very moment, their press release is only available in Dutch. An English version will soon appear on their website, and therefore I don't translate the press release in Dutch:

http://onderzoeksraad.nl/en/onderzoek/2 ... -july-2014

Het onderzoek naar de vliegramp met vlucht MH17 gaat onder leiding van de Onderzoeksraad voor Veiligheid door vanuit Den Haag. De afgelopen weken heeft een internationaal team van circa 25 luchtvaartonderzoekers in Oekraïne zoveel mogelijk onderzoeksinformatie verzameld. Voor de analyse van deze gegevens en het schrijven van het rapport van voorlopige bevindingen is langer verblijf in Oekraïne niet noodzakelijk. Het team is daarom verplaatst naar Den Haag om daar verder te werken.

De inzet van het team is eerst gericht op het rapport van voorlopige bevindingen dat de Raad over enkele weken wil publiceren. In dat rapport staan de eerste feitelijke bevindingen uit het onderzoek gebaseerd op verschillende bronnen zoals de Cockpit Voice Recorder en de Flight Data Recorder (zwarte dozen), gegevens van de luchtverkeersleiding, radarbeelden en bijvoorbeeld (satelliet)foto’s. Deze gegevens worden op dit moment met elkaar vergeleken en daarna geanalyseerd.

Door de gewijzigde veiligheidssituatie in Oost Oekraïne is het onduidelijk of de gegevens aangevuld kunnen worden met verder onderzoek op de crashsite. Tot nu toe zijn alleen vlak na de crash enkele onderzoekers onder leiding van Oekraïne kort op de crashsite geweest. Sinds de Onderzoeksraad voor Veiligheid de leiding heeft over het onderzoek is er voor het team geen nieuwe mogelijkheid geweest de rampplek te bezoeken. De onderzoekers die in Charkov en Soledar stand-by stonden om naar het rampgebied te reizen, zijn afgelopen week teruggekeerd naar Nederland. Dit hangt samen met de verslechterde veiligheidssituatie in Oost Oekraïne en het besluit van het kabinet om de crashsite vooralsnog te verlaten.

De Onderzoeksraad is met een liaison vertegenwoordigd op de ambassade in Kiev vanwege de werkafspraken die gemaakt moeten worden met alle betrokken partijen.

Naast het onderzoek naar de toedracht van de ramp met vlucht MH17, doet de Onderzoeksraad ook onderzoek naar de besluitvorming over vliegroutes en de risico-afweging die is gemaakt bij de keuze voor de vliegroute over Oost Oekraïne. Ook onderzoekt de Raad waarom de volledige passagierslijst van MH17 niet direct beschikbaar was.

De Onderzoeksraad voor Veiligheid doet geen uitspraken over schuld of aansprakelijkheid en zal die vragen ook niet in zijn onderzoek betrekken. Het onderzoek wordt uitgevoerd op basis van het ICAO-verdrag, dat de procedures voorschrijft voor internationale luchtvaartonderzoeken.

Source:
http://onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/fm/PB_ ... aagDEF.pdf

[sn26567]

The remains of a first Belgian victim have been identified by the DIV of the Belgian police working together with their Dutch colleagues, but the name has been withheld by respect for the family.

[Passenger]

Press release Nederlandse Onderzoeksraad voor de Veiligheid - Dutch Safety Board.

The Hague, 11th August 2014

The investigation into the crash of flight MH17 led by the Dutch Safety Board will continue in The Hague. In recent weeks, an international team of some 25 aircraft accident investigators has collected as much investigation information as possible in Ukraine. Since it is not necessary to stay in Ukraine any longer to analyse the information and write a report on the preliminary findings, the team has relocated to The Hague to continue its work.

The team's efforts will initially focus on the report of preliminary findings, which the Dutch Safety Board aims to publish in a few weeks' time. The report will contain the first factual findings arising from the investigation based on various sources, such as the cockpit voice recorder and the flight data recorder (the black boxes), air traffic control data, radar and satellite images. This data is currently being compared and will subsequently be analysed.

Due to the changed safety situation in East Ukraine it is unclear whether the data can be supplemented with information from further investigations at the crash site. To date under Ukranian supervision only a few investigators were able to briefly visit the crash site immediately after the plane crash. Since the Dutch Safety Board took the charge of the investigation no new opportunity has arisen for the team to visit the crash site. The investigators who were on stand-by in Kharkov and Soledar to travel to the disaster area returned to the Netherlands last week in the light of the deteriorated safety situation in East Ukraine and the Dutch government's decision to leave the crash site for the time being.

The Dutch Safety Board is represented by a liaison in the Dutch Embassy in Kiev for the purpose of the working arrangements that need to be made with all parties involved.

In addition to the investigation into the relevant facts of the MH17 disaster, the Dutch Safety Board is conducting an investigation into the decision-making process concerning the flight routes and the risk assessment made in choosing to fly over East Ukraine. The Dutch Safety Board is also investigating why the complete passenger list for MH17 was not available immediately.

The Dutch Safety Board will not make any statements with regard to apportioning blame or liability, and these issues will not form part of its investigation. The investigation will be conducted on the basis of the ICAO Convention setting out the procedures for international aviation investigations.

Source:
URL:
http://onderzoeksraad.nl/en/onderzoek/2 ... ands#fasen
pdf:
http://onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/fm/The ... _Hague.pdf

[Passenger]

The remains of a first Belgian victim have been identified by the DIV of the Belgian police working together with their Dutch colleagues, but the name has been withheld by respect for the family.

Most Belgian and Dutch victims, specially once after a certain age, have files and photo's with a dentist.
A (female) dentist from Antwerp who worked for the MH17 identification team was on local tv last week. She said that "work was heavy, but progressing good".

[Passenger]

Public statement by the Dutch Public Prosecutor - 14th August 2014

Landelijk Parket. Na de ramp met vlucht MH17 van Malaysia Airlines heeft het Openbaar Ministerie (OM) een zeer uitgebreid strafrechtelijk onderzoek ingesteld. Het Nederlandse OM heeft daarmee het voortouw genomen in de internationale samenwerking met de landen die zijn getroffen door de vliegramp.

Binnen het OM is het landelijk parket belast met het onderzoek. Hoofddoel van het strafrechtelijk onderzoek is het vaststellen van de toedracht van de vliegramp en het achterhalen van de daders.

Het is voor zover bekend het grootste strafrechtelijk onderzoek in de Nederlandse geschiedenis. Het onderzoek wordt inmiddels geleid door een tiental officieren van justitie en uitgevoerd door ongeveer 200 rechercheurs vanuit verschillende disciplines.

Ook al is de plaats waar het vliegtuig is neergekomen op dit moment niet toegankelijk, het strafrechtelijk onderzoek is volop gaande. Het is niet uitgesloten dat de rampplek op een later tijdstip alsnog toegankelijk wordt en het onderzoek op die plek zal worden hervat.

Het OM en de politie hebben intensief overleg met andere landen over de internationale samenwerking in het onderzoek.

- - - - -

In brief:

The Dutch OM (Public Prosecutor) leads the international criminal investigation. The main objective of this investigation is to find out what caused the crash and to identify the culprits. This case is the largest criminal investigation ever in Dutch history. The investigation is led by ten prosecutors, assisted by some 200 investigators/detectives.

Source: OM.nl:
http://www.om.nl/actueel/nieuwsberichte ... echtelijk/

[sn26567]

A second Belgian victim has been identified. Like for the previous one, the name has been withheld.

[Passenger]

A second Belgian victim has been identified. Like for the previous one, the name has been withheld.

16 Malaysian bodies will be repatriated next Wednesday, on a special flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.

Australian media report that the first 2 (of 38) Australians victims have also been identified.

Source:

http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/c ... ntificeerd

http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/c ... us-om-mh17

[Squelsh]

Malaysian press charges Ukraine government shot down MH 17
By Alex Lantier
9 August 2014

A Thursday article in the New Straits Times, Malaysia’s flagship English-language newspaper, charged the US- and European-backed Ukrainian regime in Kiev with shooting down Malaysian Airlines flight MH 17 in east Ukraine last month. Given the tightly controlled character of the Malaysian media, it appears that the accusation that Kiev shot down MH17 has the imprimatur of the Malaysian state.

The US and European media have buried this remarkable report, which refutes the wave of allegations planted by the CIA in international media claiming that Russian president Vladimir Putin was responsible for the destruction of MH17, without presenting any evidence to back up this charge.

The New Straits Times article, titled “US analysts conclude MH17 downed by aircraft,” lays out evidence that Ukrainian fighter aircraft attacked the jetliner with first a missile, then with bursts of 30-millimeter machine gun fire from both sides of MH17. The Russian army has already presented detailed radar and satellite data showing a Ukrainian Sukhoi-25 fighter jet tailing MH17 shortly before the jetliner crashed. The Kiev regime denied that its fighters were airborne in the area, however.

The New Straits Times article began, “Intelligence analysts in the United States have already concluded that Malaysia flight MH17 was shot down by an air-to-air missile, and that the Ukrainian government had had something to do with it. This corroborates an emerging theory postulated by local investigators that the Boeing 777-200 was crippled by an air-to-air missile and finished off with cannon fire from a jet that had been shadowing it as it plummeted to earth.”

It cited “experts who had said that the photographs of the blast fragmentation patterns on the fuselage of the airliner showed two distinct shapes—the shredding pattern associated with a warhead packed with ‘flechettes,’ and the more uniform, round-type penetration holes consistent with that of cannon rounds.”

The New Straits Times cited several sources to substantiate its position. One was testimony by a Canadian-Ukrainian monitor for the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), Michael Bociurkiw—one of the first investigators to arrive at the crash site. Speaking to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation on July 29, Bociurkiw said: “There have been two or three pieces of fuselage that have been really pockmarked with what almost looks like machine gun fire; very, very strong machine gun fire.”

Another source the paper cited was an article, “Flight 17 Shoot-Down Scenario Shifts,” by former Associated Press reporter Robert Parry, who now writes for the ConsortiumNews.com web site. Given the lack of any evidence supporting US charges that pro-Russian forces shot MH17 down with a Buk anti-aircraft missile, Parry said, “some US intelligence analysts have concluded that the rebels and Russia were likely not at fault, and that it appears Ukrainian government forces were to blame, according to a source briefed on these findings.”

Parry indicated that sections of the US intelligence apparatus have concluded that US secretary of state John Kerry’s claims that pro-Russian forces shot down the plane are lies.

“Only three days after the crash, Secretary of State Kerry did the rounds of the Sunday talk shows making what he deemed an ‘extraordinary circumstantial’ case supposedly proving that the rebels carried out the shoot-down with missiles provided by Russia. He acknowledged that the US government was ‘not drawing the final conclusion here, but there is a lot that points at the need for Russia to be responsible,’ ” Parry wrote. “By then, I was already being told that the US intelligence community lacked any satellite imagery supporting Kerry’s allegations, and that the only Buk missile system in that part of Ukraine appeared to be under the control of the Ukrainian military.”

Finally, the New Straits Times and Parry both cite retired Lufthansa pilot Peter Haisenko, who has pointed to photographic evidence of MH17 wreckage suggesting that cockpit panels were raked with heavy machine gun fire from both the port and starboard sides. “Nobody before Haisenko had noticed that the projectiles had ripped through the panel from both its left side and its right side. This is what rules out any ground-fired missile,” Parry wrote.

The New Straits Times report constitutes a powerful accusation not only against the Ukrainian government, but against Washington, Berlin, and their European allies. They installed the Kiev regime through a fascist-led putsch in February. They then deployed a series of intelligence operatives and Blackwater mercenaries who are closely coordinating the various fascist militias and National Guard units fighting for Kiev on the ground in east Ukraine, where MH17 was shot down.

These forces now stand accused not only of stoking an explosive political and military confrontation with Russia on its border with Ukraine over the MH17 crash, which threatens to erupt into nuclear war, but of provoking the confrontation through the cold-blooded murder of 298 people aboard MH17.

These charges from Malaysia are all the more significant in that Malaysia is not a strategic adversary of the United States. Unlike Russia, which already presented evidence suggesting Ukrainian involvement in the crash, Malaysia has no political motive for trying to discredit the US, the European powers, or their puppet regime in Kiev.

While it has not aligned itself as openly as the Philippines or Vietnam with the US “pivot to Asia” aimed at isolating China, Malaysia has pushed for deployments of its forces in the South China Sea to contest Chinese influence in the area, in line with the agenda of the US “pivot.”

Indeed, the New Straits Times and its sources are basing themselves on sections of US intelligence that, disgruntled by the complete lack of evidence to back up US charges against Putin and fearing catastrophic military escalation, have criticized Washington’s handling of the crisis (see: “Former US intelligence personnel challenge Obama to present evidence of Russian complicity in MH17 crash”).

These developments also constitute yet another indictment of the Western media, which have completely blacked out the investigation of the crash of MH17 and the latest material in the New Straits Times. Instead, the elements in the CIA and their Ukrainian proxies driving the war in eastern Ukraine have been able to escalate the confrontation with Russia and demonize Putin, without any of their unsubstantiated accusations of Russian involvement in the MH17 crash being challenged.

Kiev regime officials are continuing to stonewall the investigation, refusing Malaysian requests for information about MH17, such as the record of communications between the doomed plane and air traffic controllers in Kiev.

In an interview with the New Straits Times, Ukrainian Ambassador to Malaysia Ihor Humennyi denied reports that the tapes had been seized by Ukraine’s State Security Service (SBU). “There is no proof or evidence that the tapes were confiscated by the SBU. I only read this in the newspapers,” he said.

When the New Straits Times asked where the tapes were, Humennyi said he did not know. “We don’t have any information that it had not been given to the investigation team, or that it was not received by the [team of international] investigators,” he said.

Source: http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/08 ... a-a09.html

[regi]

If fuselage parts can be shown with such typical automatic canon impacts, it will be simply disregarded as:
"you see, the Russians did this in the time we were not allowed acces to the crash site"

The silence around MH17 is frightening. Now that more remains are released , some evidence should become clear.

The past has shown us that Ukrain admitted that it downed another civilian airliner ( flight 1812 ) only after human remains were found with the typical S-200 rocket parts inside it...

[Flanker2]

If Malaysia also supports this theory, we know enough.

[mooney058]

I was amazed by 'someone's' conviction about the couses of this accident and the fierce defencive stance towards one particular side of the conflict. Some interesting 'hard opinions' and conclussions; most of which unfortunately not related to the accident. I was overwhelmed when I read all of this together again:

17 Jul 2014
I don't think that the rebels have such weapons systems on Ukrainian territory.

17 Jul 2014
The rebels deny it. They say it was not their leader that tweeted, but someone on the ground who tweeted AFTER he saw that a plane had crashed - assuming it was an Ukrain military plane, assuming someone shot it down.
How reliable is information from the Ukraian president, not elected through democratic elections?
How reliable is information from this president that orders his army to bomb his own people?

17 Jul 2014
What started last year as a peaceful gathering in Kiev has evolved into a revolution and a civil war.
Whoever did this probably didn't intend to do it, (unless it was done on purpose by Ukraine, in an attempt to involve other countries in the conflict) but the fact is, this wouldn't have happened were it not for this meaningless revolution. For me, the EU and US politicians who have supported the rebellion and ensuing revolution, are equally responsible for this terrible tragedy.

18 Jul 2014
If it were done on purpose, I suspect the Ukrainian intelligence would be more likely to have done it.

19 Jul 2014
The conflict was not initiated by the rebels, this whole thing started with riots run and supported by U.S./EU governments, as in Egypt and Lybia.
Personally, I think that Europe has more to gain from a closer partnership with Russia than one with the U.S. The U.S. is an economy in steady decline with an unstable political system, while Russia will be Europe's energy future with huge resources of biomass and oil. What do the Americans bring to our economy?

19 Jul 2014
Another possible theory is that it was shot down by "rebels" who were actually working for the Ukrainian government.

20 Jul 2014
The separatists are saying they think they have what could be the black boxes, but are not sure due to lack of knowledge.
I can't highlight enough much we're being manipulated and brain-washed by our Western governments' propaganda-machine. The "rebels" in question are only locals who have lead a quiet and miserable life until their goernment was overthrown and they are now seen as a nuisance. They are being bombed by their own leaders, much as what is happening in Syria.

20 Jul 2014
OSCE is at the scene but it does not have the expertise nor mandate to handle this accident. They are there to prevent tensions between interested parties, not to inspect aircraft. Rebels fear they might plant evidence, which seems justified to me.

20 Jul 2014
So far, it seems to me like the rebels are the ones seeking this neutral party, as they probably supect that the Ukrainians and the West will tamper with evidence to prove something that they may not have done.

Representative of the People's Republic of Donetsk in Russia, Andrei Rodkin, started that the militia of the breakaway republics were ready to negotiate truce with Kiev. According to him, the militia are interested to stop the killings of civilians and the destruction of infrastructure in the region, RIA Novosti reports.

20 Jul 2014
Could the Ukrainian military have done this? The Ukrainian government are the ones who stand most to gain from it.

20 Jul 2014
One thing is certain though:
The rebels had no motivation to down the aircraft on purpose, but the Ukrainians did.

20 Jul 2014
The rebels are the armed separatist militia who have declared independence of the Donetsk province from Ukraine and are seeking attachment to Russia, in the same way as Crimea did with Russian support. Many locals seem to have supported the local referendum and actually prefer to be part of Russia rather than Ukraine, even though the West claims that it was all fabricated.
Russia hadn't responded to the request yet and were seeking dialogue.
Let's be honest with ourselves, the Kiev revolution was stupid. Kiev people did what was probably right for Kiev itself, but haven't asked the rest of the people's opinion.
The Kiev people are hoping that the EU would accept Ukraine into it, but the EU can't afford it as Ukraine's entire industry is oriented towards Russia. A great example: Antonov.

21 Jul 2014
I can't help but notice that Putin is being the big man in this mess. It just shows how he is in control of himself and his deeds, as opposed to the Western puppets who claim to be our leaders and display no class or decency. In my eyes, Obama and several EU nations have lost credibility in this accident, which is a shame because I used to be a fan of Obama. The only person that is displaying self-control and class in the EU seems to be Merkel, who has take a neutral stance and is trying to mediate the conversation.

21 Jul 2014
Why wouldn' it be conceivable that the Ukrainians downed MH17, either intentionally or by accident.
Could the separatist be victims of a set-up?

21 Jul 2014
I think that the rebels will not allow the bodies into Ukrainian hands, as they may tamper with them to create evidence, instead of returning them to their families.

21 Jul 2014
Update from rt.com (which seems to be doing a great job of reporting these updates, while Western media are very slow to update about the transparency of the separatists).

21 Jul 2014
-BBC still hasn't mentioned the positive development of the black box hand-over...
-BBC casts doubts by using terms such as "but there is no confirmation" and titles such as "Train with bodies leaves Ukraine station".
-BBC doesn't miss an opportunity to remind that : "Western countries say the plane was shot down on 17 July by the rebels, who have been involved in heavy fighting in the main rebel-held city of Donetsk."

That is no longer a news report, it's manipulation.
Also, western media will certainly not miss a chance to downplay the black-box hand-over, once it has occurred.
My personal opinion is that the anglo-saxon media are not reporting facts but expressing opinions.

22 Jul 2014
I for one think that chances are high that Ukraine did it and are trying to cover it up by being the first and loudest in accusing the other party.

23 Jul 2014
Remember how long it took until the Wall of Berlin fell? Obama and his friends are building it back up again with their sanctions and their strong words versus Russia.

So yes, you can blame Crimea on the Russians, but guess who gave them the opportunity?
Yes, Europe and the USA, when they supported the chaos in Ukraine.
This accident shows the same pattern of arrogant behavior from the West.
First they put a country in chaos, then blame an airplane shotdown by themselves or the separatists to the Russians. Isn't that weird?

23 Jul 2014
Ukraine is still maintining its radical stance and blaming Russia with very strong words and accusations, while bombing civilians in territory they claim to be their own, much like Syria is doing. The separatists are not killing any civilians as most are locals anyway

23 Jul 2014
So far Ukraine have only been shouting, but they have not revealed the positions of their own batteries to rule out their involvement. In the meanwhile they continue to drop bombs on civilians.
If there is anyone behaving like radicals/terrorists, it's them.

24 Jul 2014
The shiny Cadillac's add a nice touch of snob by the way, in contrast to the poor separatists who put them in plastic bags and refrigerated trains. Can you blame them, when they earn less than the Chinese while not knowing if their families will survive the next Ukrainian airstrike in their quest for freedom?

26 Jul 2014
Our representatives have then pushed for a revolution in a poor but peaceful country for no other reason than financial gain and military strategy.

28 Jul 2014
Until now I see the Russians as the pacifists while the west is exercising excessive pressure on them.
If they want East Ukraine, if they even do at all, which is debatable, why not let them have it?
The EU didn't give a damn about Ukraine until now, so why should they start now?
Putin is doing a relatively good job keeping everyone in check and he's investing in his industries, including aircraft.

29 Jul 2014
What will be Putin's next move? Does he care enough about this region to send his own troops, or will he let the Ukrainians have it their way?
After all Putin has already gotten what he wants, Crimea.

29 Jul 2014
One thing is sure though, the separatists were willing to cooperate with the investigation. That much is certain as they handed over the recorders.

03 Aug 2014
It's clear that we're heading towards a second cold war.
Our economies are failling to restart, and when things are like this, war is the only solution.

I don't understand what's happening to Obama. He seemed like a cool guy, yet now he's talking like G.W.Bush II.
Unbelievable how a person can change: from Nobel Prize of Peace to war sollicitor.

09 Aug 2014
CNN now posting a report on the propaganda war raging between media from both sides.
In so doing, they unfortunately criticise Russian media as being unreliable and tightly controlled by government, which also shows that they're not impartial.

[Flanker2]

Why aren't the Dutch conducting investigations in the crash area?
Because they're fighting there.

Yet, both sides signed an agreement to keep the crash area free of conflict. At the moment of the crash the area was held by rebels, so why is the Ukrainian government fighting there?

I think that Putin will have enough and will invade the area very soon. He will secure the crash site and let the investigators do their work. That's the right course of action at this point, but maybe that's exactly what the U.S. is hoping for.

[Bracebrace]

At the moment of the crash the area was held by rebels, so why is the Ukrainian government fighting there?

Ukrainian forces fight there because it is Ukraine ground, not Russian ground, nor rebel ground.

I think that Putin will have enough and will invade the area very soon. He will secure the crash site...

Putin invadeded Ukrain, and is now ending up as the hero who is going to secure the crash site?

Let me get this straight: burglars enter a house, and take over the lower floor - armed. The owners fight against the burglars and a stranded third party gets killed. Nobody knows who's fire it was, there is only speculation. I read here now the owners of the house have to back off, even more: the burglars are going to secure the lower floor and find out who killed the third party?

If Putin wants to secure the area, he tells the bloody rebels to stop the bullshit and let Ukraine be Ukraine. Or at least stop giving them fireworks. The dutch investigators were already in place. I think they were pretty neutral from the beginning. Putin only had to stop the invasion. He didn't...

[thalenoi]

It is very sad that those who shot down that aircraft don't have the guts to admit they did it.
What the world has come to

[sn26567]

At the very beginning a rebel commander admitted to have shot down the aircraft, thinking it was a military plane. Remember?

Envoyé de mon GT-I9100 en utilisant Tapatalk

[Passenger]

At the very beginning a rebel commander admitted to have shot down the aircraft, thinking it was a military plane. Remember?

Actually he didn't say "I have show down" nor "we have show down". He said that somebody has shot down a Malaysian Boeing.

But did he really say something like that? Russia Today has given the proof already that those audio's were fake. The "official time lapse of the recordings" differs on the Russian and the English version, meaning it's fabricated proof. There was no conversation like that.