NRT - BRU - NRT gap

[tolipanebas]

BRU - TKO was a scheduled nonstop flight, but on many occasions it made a fuel stop in Moscow on the way back if winds were really strong, mostly in winter.

Similar issues occurred on the return from Johannesburg, which regularly had to stop in AGP or NCE for a fuel uplift, mostly in winter too (I.e. summer, thus hot in Jo'burg).

Just shows you that operating a plane close to its theoretical range capacities often isn't very practical in real world operations as soon as you start to divert from the sea level, ISA, no wind charts you find in glossy sales brochures or online these days... Another nice example of this is the 787-10, which Boeing claims to be very capable (7000nm+), but which Lufthansa analysed and found unable to reach South American / West Coast USA destinations in real from FRA...

[travellover]

Are you sure?
I remember being on a A342 or A343 and sitting in Moscow several times in 1996-1999 besides early 1990's, to/from NRT.

Correct, during 2 years, there was a stopover (occasional) in Moscow when Sabena stopped the route via the pole and ANC in 1991.
From october 31, 1993, the route became non-stop. It leaved BRU at 12h25, landing in NRT the following day at 07h45. It departed from Tokyo NRT at 11h55, landing at BRU at 16h25 with a Boeing 743. It was a thrice weekly operation on days 2,5,7 and 1,3,6 return to BRU. The timetable remained close to that in the following years. From december 8, 1997, both 342 and 343 replaced the 743. From march 29, 1998, the 343 only. From october 25, 1998, they added a fourth weekly flight on thursdays (fridays).
In 1990, the route via ANC left NRT at 21h00 (1,3,6) and landed at BRU the following day at 05h30 or 06h10.

[travellover]

BRU - TKO was a scheduled nonstop flight, but on many occasions it made a fuel stop in Moscow on the way back if winds were really strong, mostly in winter.

Was it particular to the 743 until it was replaced on the route by 342 - 343 in 1997 ?

[Lysexpat]

BRU - TKO was a scheduled nonstop flight, but on many occasions it made a fuel stop in Moscow on the way back if winds were really strong, mostly in winter..

SVO was a SCHEDULED stop in the early days of the 743 operations from NRT to BRU, a requirement of the Rusiians
After a couple of years they dropped the request for landins in SVO and it became a nonstop route. From that day onwards fuelstops, if needed, were made in CPH. It was indeed on the limit for a 743, not because of take off weight but because of maximum tank capacity 156000kgs (200,000l). Often flights departed NRT with a flight plan for CPH alternate AMS and in flight recleared AMS alternate BRU and on top of descend recleared again destination 25l alternate 25R.

[tolipanebas]

BRU - TKO was a scheduled nonstop flight, but on many occasions it made a fuel stop in Moscow on the way back if winds were really strong, mostly in winter..

SVO was a SCHEDULED stop in the early days of the 743 operations from NRT to BRU, a requirement of the Rusiians
After a couple of years they dropped the request for landins in SVO and it became a nonstop.

That's correct.

I can't remember anything like that when the A340 operated the route, do you?

Note how we have here somebody who's claiming to have done that stop in Moscow toward the end if the 1990s on A343, not only on the return, but as well as on the outbound, something which would be very unique, let alone frequent, like claimed...

Weird.

[Charlie Roy]

Japanese visitors to Belgium is certainly on the u:
http://www.deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws.e ... /1.1797827

Overnight stays in hotels in Brussels in 2012 per nationality:
"Other countries that show a big increase are Japan (+27.6%), the United Arab Emirates (+27.5%) and the Russian Federation (+26.2%). The Australians are also doing well, with figures that go 11.2 percent up."

PS: Where I work, when people from our Japanese office come to visit Brussels, they now fly NRT-AMS-BRU.

[Flanker2]

Well Tolipanebas, I could swear that I was on a A340 in Moscow, and saw pax leaving the aircraft there too in the late nineties. But I also remember direct flights.

Charlie Roy's statistics are interesting. I decided to look further and it seems that in Brussels, the Japanese are the largest non-EU customer for hotels, ahead of Russia, despite not having a direct flight.
Almost 70.000 check-ins in Brussels alone, with 45% business share. This doesn't count the airport hotels, which are highly frequented by execs of the multinationals established between Evere and the airport.

Page 12: http://visitbrussels.be/bitc/static/fro ... _27174.pdf

With such a big, rather higher yield O&D demand, and potential for government incentives, SN would rather start JFK or SFO... obviously they are stuck on Sabena's numbers.
If they open HND, with the feed, they could fill a B77W at good yields. Plus, it would benefit their shorthaul routes in the afternoon.

Anyone want to start a new Belgian airline?

[LJ]

Charlie Roy's statistics are interesting. I decided to look further and it seems that in Brussels, the Japanese are the largest non-EU customer for hotels, ahead of Russia, despite not having a direct flight.

The fact that hotel occupancy is higher does not equate to much traffic as these tourists do't go to Belgium specifically and do a tour in Europe. These tours tend to start in a big city (Paris or London).

If they open HND, with the feed, they could fill a B77W at good yields. Plus, it would benefit their shorthaul routes in the afternoon.

They cannot open HND - BRU as the international slots are based on destination. At present NH holds 3 slot pairs for Germany (2 day time 1 night time) and 1 for UK and France. Other slots are for Asian and Canada destinations only. There are no slots available for Belgium - Haneda (not even night time slots) Moreover, NH if Nh would be able to fly HND - BRU they're probably won't do so as other markets are probably better suited for HND.

[sn26567]

When Sabena started flying to NRT, it was indeed via Anchorage, as mentioned above, and with DC10 aircraft.

When FAA imposed a worldwide grounding of the DC10 in 1979, good old B707s stepped in again, and I personally remember such a flight to NRT on the 707 (where incidentally a large group of German tourists going to Anchorage on a fishing trip emptied the whole supply of alcohol miniatures).

Sabena eventually codeshared with ANA on the route.

[Flanker2]

The fact that hotel occupancy is higher does not equate to much traffic as these tourists do't go to Belgium specifically and do a tour in Europe. These tours tend to start in a big city (Paris or London).

Actually,
15 years ago, the Japanese tours would start their journey in London, Amsterdam or Brussels and head South to France, Italy or Spain with the bus, in an attempt to see as much of Europe as possible in a week or 10 days. They would then leave from Madrid, Barcelona, Rome or Paris back to Japan.
However, the demand has shifted as the Japanese now want a more in-depth and shorter, relaxed trip, as opposed to seeing all of Europe in minimal time, wherein you are forced to see your tour through the lens of your camera because it goes so fast...
Japanese "cross-European" tours are as good as extinct.

Also, traffic in Europe is no longer what it was 15 years ago... now it's impossible to organise such tours efficiently, which is why the Japanese tour operators have changed their packages.

Now most tour operators list their tours by country:
See here:
http://www.nta.co.jp/kaigai/europe/
http://www.jtb.co.jp/kaigai/europe/#first_area
http://www.his-j.com/kix/europe/search. ... e=1&type=3

See here for the offer on Belgium: http://www.nta.co.jp/kaigai/europe/belgium/ (use google translate on Chrome)

Most groups you see doing cross-Europe are Chinese groups, because of limited budget.
Most of the leisure registered in Brussels is VFR, or private leisure travellers, not tour travel. Belgium is not that high on the Japanese wish-list anymore, the lack of a direct flight is the main issue.

45% business travel share is huge. This is almost entirely high-yield O&D.
Brussels hotels are registering 100 check-ins per day by Japanese business travellers.... food for thought?

Also, more and more Japanese businesses are establishing their European hubs in the Netherlands and Germany... one of the main reasons being the lack of a direct flight to Tokyo, as stupid as it may sound.

As for HND slots... if Belgium/SN applies for it, as part of a relaunch of a Belgium-Japan link, you can rest assured that they will get the slot. Don't forget that Brussels is the political heart of Europe as well.
There are still many unallocated daytime slots for 2014, and otherwise, SN can still get a slot quite easily.

[convair]

There seems to be an interesting opportunity there indeed!

I'm more and more under the impression that LH/SN fail to efficiently tap the potential of BRU. Lack of money (for SN), lack of aircraft (SN again), but mostly lack of vision and ambition (LH and/or SN?)!

[sn26567]

ANA must know those statistics as well. If SN/LH doesn't want to launch the route, at least ANA should tap into that market. Ideally in the same joint venture as the Germany-Japan routes shared by LH and ANA.

[LJ]

As for HND slots... if Belgium/SN applies for it, as part of a relaunch of a Belgium-Japan link, you can rest assured that they will get the slot. Don't forget that Brussels is the political heart of Europe as well. There are still many unallocated daytime slots for 2014, and otherwise, SN can still get a slot quite easily.

No they won't get it as there are no slots to hand out (all day time and nght time slots are distributed). Not to mention that the Japanese have much more important business interest in other countries and thus will not risk any aviation war by giving slots for a BRU flight. Finally, the night time slots are very bad for European airines (hence that AF and KL don't use them) and have very bad schedules (not many like a 01:30 departure). On the other hand NRT seems to have many slots available.

[Passenger]

ANA must know those statistics as well. If SN/LH doesn't want to launch the route, at least ANA should tap into that market. Ideally in the same joint venture as the Germany-Japan routes shared by LH and ANA.

Indeed - nice to read a realistic post here. If ANA thinks that there not enough Japanese citizens for a nonstop flight, then why would Brussels Airlines should take that risk?

Those who were familiar with Sabena probably still know that Japan was a difficult market to handle: Sabena needed Japanese speaking check-in staff at BRU, and they even needed Japanese speaking cabin crew on each flight.

By the way: the "100 daily Japanese hotel bookings in Brussels" are not all people coming straight from Japan. Many of them are Japanese citizens living somewhere else in Europe and coming over to Brussels for a meeting.

[RoMax]

ANA frequently claimed their intentions to start flights to BRU, but that's been carrying on since Sabena went bankrupt. In the latest years they often expressed that BRU is a possible future 787 route for them, as well as DUS and ZRH. But delays over their 787 deliveries AND more importantly the economic situation of the EU over the past years delayed their good intentions once again and made them focus on new US routes and the use of 787's in Asia, instead of using them on new European routes (except for HND-FRA and they'll also launch HND-LHR and HND-CDG with 77W's in S14, but these are safer routes as they have big proven markets and ANA knows they can generate lots of demand with their HND-slots which are much more favourable as the slots European carriers receive).

I'm sure BRU, ZRH and DUS are still on their agenda as possible future 787 routes, I just wonder how much longer it will take...this is a route of which I wouldn't be suprised their announce it for summer 2014, neither would I be suprised if theire is still now non-stop BRU-NRT/HND connection 5 years later.

Those who were familiar with Sabena probably still know that Japan was a difficult market to handle: Sabena needed Japanese speaking check-in staff at BRU, and they even needed Japanese speaking cabin crew on each flight.

Japan is a difficult market on certain aspects, but it are often the most difficult markets that generate the highest profits. I don't expect SN to launch flights to Tokyo, but ANA on the other hand...and they are more than used to their local ways of working.

[EBAW]

B743 Sabena - flightnumber Sabena 207- 208 Brussels - Tokyo -> The good old days!

[BrightCedars]

Seeing the state of the Japanese economy I would rather wonder if Asiana would return to BRU in the near future.

BrightCedars, I guess you mean ANA ? Asiana is Korean !

I did mean Asiana if you get me comparison between the state of the Japanese economy and that of the Korean one. By there I meant I see more chances for Asiana, a member of Star Alliance, to reopen BRU before ANA does.

[Stij]

B743 Sabena - flightnumber Sabena 207- 208 Brussels - Tokyo -> The good old days!

Flew BRU NRT on my 18th birthday and back 6 weeks later! From / to the old Zaventem terminal... Now you more about my age!

[RoMax]

Not about BRU, but certainly about Tokyo-Europe:

Besides the new Europe-Haneda flights of ANA (LHR and CDG opd by 77W daily), Air France will now also relaunch flights to Haneda (starting 10 per week, going up to two daily later in S14)
http://airlineroute.net/2013/12/10/af-hnd-s14/

British Airways will increase their HND service from 5 per week first to 6 per week and daily as from early May. Their shedule was revised.

London Heathrow – Tokyo Haneda Service increase from 5 to 6 weekly, daily from 04MAY14. Operational schedule revised to daytime hours at Haneda from 30MAR14 (0700 – 0900hrs)
BA007 LHR1130 – 0720+1HND 777 D
BA008 HND0850 – 1310LHR 777 D

[sn-remember]

Another nice example of this is the 787-10, which Boeing claims to be very capable (7000nm+), but which Lufthansa analysed and found unable to reach South American / West Coast USA destinations in real from FRA...

The 787-8 does it with ease however. But too small for lh. The A350 family will suit lh better for that sort of mission.