Brussels Airlines : pilots strike looming

[Treeper]

omg :p
i have yet to find the first SN pilot earning 7k a month though

purely on an informational sidenote, do you or does anyone else know what SN pilots earn?
or what the average salary for pilots in the EU (FSC and LCC) is?

I'm not trying to be a judge as some others, I'd just like some numbers, if you please

[sean1982]

The first word was partly! JAF's TRTO is also generating quite a lot of money yearly from cadets paying for an inhouse type rating for a summer contract

[sean1982]

omg :p
i have yet to find the first SN pilot earning 7k a month though

purely on an informational sidenote, do you or does anyone else know what SN pilots earn?
or what the average salary for pilots in the EU (FSC and LCC) is?

I'm not trying to be a judge as some others, I'd just like some numbers, if you please

A senior BA,KLM, LH captain would have about 12.000 a month after tax. That's about as high as you can go in the EU I would guess

[teddybAIR]

Off course 'partly'! there seldomly is just one unique root cause to success or failure

[b720]

SN needs to streamline its European operation and make it profitable, or at least break even. Reducing flights, codesharing, increasing profitable routes..they probably did all that.. BFLEX/BLIGHT seems like a successful model as SWISS adopted it for its operations out of GVA. They went further, maybe SN should copy paste that.. what is left for EUROPE is:CUTTING COSTS. Maybe they should create a new company(SN EUROPE?) based in Malta/Ireland?or likewise..and rehire all C.crew and Pilots flying EUROPE by that company. Less contributions to the state and less taxes.. a win win situation for the company, and the crew as more money left after taxes. SN EUROPE can NEVER compete with the tax rates and social costs their employees cost when their EUROPEAN competition (we're not talkingME3) is paying a fraction of that. Just keep long haul based and registered in Belgium. Waiting for LH's magic wand is not a plan.

[papysn]

Hi,

Sn structure,inherited by Sabena is also way too heavy...
A light structure with a direct link between frontliners and senior management would be,for what i think, a very good way of saving money... too bad that's not the direction taken...
The company hasn't enough frontliner(wich are directly usefull for passengers) but way too much middle managers...

Regards.

K.

[SN1203]

Sn structure,inherited by Sabena is also way too heavy...
A light structure with a direct link between frontliners and senior management would be,for what i think, a very good way of saving money... too bad that's not the direction taken...
The company hasn't enough frontliner(wich are directly usefull for passengers) but way too much middle managers...

To make such a statement, you must know very well how the airline is organized, right? And how that is compared to other companies?

Funny statement coming from a category of staff earning way more compared to those 'middle managers' that also work 120% but do not go on strike if not all holidays can be taken up and have to be transferred to the next year (which is a pretty normal thing for a private company in the 21st century).

[euroflyer]

As for LH: BruAir pilots are the cheapest of the group and they have an excellent safety record, so LH might not buy BruAir, but they could employ the pilots under a German Wings contract.
LH only needs a small BruAir for AFI operations, EU ops can be flown by German Wings Belgium.
The management jobs at BruAir are in a much bigger danger than are the pilot jobs.

Sorry, wrong: LH does not need any BRu operations at all, they can be a successful and profitable company without any base in BRU … And they do not need an German Wings Belgium either … And I guess some people just made them very much aware of this

[Air Key West]

Right ! If b.air employees (especially pilots and f/a) want LH to take full control of b.air, my advice would be : accept everything that b.air's current management is imposing on you to make a good impression on LH and once the deal is sealed and you're fully part of the LH Group, go on strike like LH employees do !

[Pocahontas]

@SN1203: I never heard management claim there are too many managers... If you say there are too many pilots (why we had to fly for 85% wage, changing to 90% in april, due to a miscalculation of the management), but at the same time you can not give them the annual leaves they're entitled too, yes then there is a problem. And I really don't think that that's a 21st century thing.
What is your contribution in the beyond plan SN1203, feel free to inform me in pm, than we can compare!!!

[werknemer]

again

and what about Korongo? (still now spending millions)
Air dc?
cam air?
cameroun air?
Rwandair express?
Air senegal?
the towers of technics we can't use?

how many millions?

and for what? what did bru air won? or his employees or his passengers?

[SN1203]

@SN1203: I never heard management claim there are too many managers... If you say there are too many pilots (why we had to fly for 85% wage, changing to 90% in april, due to a miscalculation of the management), but at the same time you can not give them the annual leaves they're entitled too, yes then there is a problem. And I really don't think that that's a 21st century thing.
What is your contribution in the beyond plan SN1203, feel free to inform me in pm, than we can compare!!!

In your cockpit, you won't hear the managers claiming there are too many managers Pocahontas... Why don't you make a little walk through b.house in one of the coming days and have a look at the number of empty & deserted desks. Maybe you should ask your union representative a list of the people that left (voluntarily or not so voluntarily) in the past 2 years... Of course, your kind of statements is more popular and who cares about the reality.

If you're not happy already with what you earn today (not even talking about the extra's you get), I'm sure you would love to have what is on the payslip of the average 'manager' you seem to envy so much

Oh, and was it also your union representative who told you you had to go to 90% because 'management calculated the crew need wrongly'?

[Pocahontas]

Do I envy managers at Bru Air?
No there was no miscalculation: We started with an agreement (beyond...) where we had to fly at 85% in 2013, 90% in 2014. In April 2013 we already returned to 90%, and we should have returned to 100% in 2014. So was there a miscalculation? Did or did they not have to cancel flights in 2013 due to LACK of pilots?

[SN1203]

Shouldn't you be happy you can return quicker to the 100%?

And maybe there was just more need for more production compared to when the Beyond plan was negotiated? The world changes, you know?

Next time, they should maybe do it the easy way and fire people whenever there is a surplus to avoid these silly 85% versus 90% discussions...

[Pocahontas]

First fire pilots (with all the costs that brings with it) and then rehire and train pilots 3 months later, and than again the rest 1 year later. That would indeed make sense. You really think they fired nobody for our beautiful eyes? No! They were sure that what I describe above would be much more expensive. The fact we can work at 100% again (and I am happy with that), has NOTHING to do with the fact they cannot give us our holidays of 2013! We were understaffed in 2013, ergo miscalculation.

[RoMax]

miscalculation.

...of the expected demand => planned flights. When they saw demand increasing they probably planned more flights than they knew they could handle in the hope they could get more pilots flying than actually agreed in the Beyond plan. Miscalculating the need of staff is hardly a matter of making actual mistakes, its a matter of having a wrong indication about the expected demand (which proves to be better than expected, which should be a good thing).

[FlightMate]

I don't think they miscalculated the needs for crew this year.
I think they know pretty well that it is cheaper to make crew work a little bit overtime than below their flat rate.
What they miscalculated, is the crew reaction.

SN1203, in your salary comparaison, try to include a 1000eur/month loan for 10 years.
Try to include as well any life-style requirement you might have (like week-ends off, xmas off, etc...)
If it's too hard to compare, just don't.

Fact is during Sabena time, we had 'political' jobs, where people where doing nothing, and I mean really nothing.
I know any airline would require a certain amount of office staff, but requires probably a pretty similar amount should the airline have 10 or 50 aircraft.

That's probably what Pocahontas is saying, we have a lot of 'managers' compared to front liners.
If we were doubling the fleet and the amount of front-liners, we wouldn't necesserily double the amount of managers.

Happy to work at 100%, yes! For 80% of the pay, no! Pretty obvious, isn't it?
At CX, all employees were offered unpaid leave in 2008 to help the company during the crisis.
I believe 95% took it.
In 2009, the company paid back the difference in salary. Wouldn't happen at SN, would it?

[B.Inventive]

I have a big problem with the fact that my management is continually lying to me in the most perfected way.
I cannot trust this management.
I will not trust this management anymore, for that they already did too much damage.
I will fight for my rights.
If fighting for my rights means that tomorrow I have to disappoint 100 pax who cannot do that 1 event in their life, so be it they will get another shot at it. I cannot accept that 'one' event in their lives is more important that my entire life. Who are you to decide your appointment/holiday is more important than my career? Isn't that arrogance?
This strike is simply the expression of a failed management, because it is THEM pushing the limits. If this strike were to be about getting a raise then I would agree, but in this case it is about protecting ourselves.

Somewhere it has to end. I suppose this strike was this limit. Too much has happened, too many promises broken, too many lies told...

I understand this post is perhaps emotional but then again when talking about employees you are not talking about numbers, please try explaining that to our management...

[RoMax]

I cannot accept that 'one' event in their lives is more important that my entire life. Who are you to decide your appointment/holiday is more important than my career? Isn't that arrogance?

Also when that's the funeral of a family member or good friend, the wedding reception/party of a relative, another one-time 'event', ...
Of course your career is very important, but if you make statements like that, go to your boss, resign and go looking for another job, but do not work for an airline ar another company delivering a service to other people! These passengers are the ones paying your career, without these people you wouldn't even have a job at SN.

If you are not happy about SN's management and you think there is no other way than striking, quit and go looking for another job because your statement is what I call arrogance, not the passengers complaining about their cancelled flight.

[FlightMate]

Romax and other managers, if you're not happy with how the pilots reacted and went on strike, just quit your job and go fly somewhere else, where striking is not allowed.

Oh wait...