New bilateral agreement Belgium- DR Congo

[sean1982]

Rumours I heard is that EC Air wants to start Brazzaville-BRU as soon as the 2nd 757 arrives, more competition for SN to come :-/

[convair]

This is why SN should not concentrate too much on AFI. It's ( one of) the mistake(s) Sabena made in the seventies. It shoud also develop other easily reachable markets in N.A. (YUL, BOS, ORD,ATL...) and grab opportunities elsewhere (SAO,HKG,MUM...) asap.
Let's hope LH will be agressive enough to give SN the means to do it fast!

[Inquirer]

Not that I am an expert, but the way I read the link, the only thing that happened was that the previous decision to decline the request for flights of Jetair, based on technical incompatibility with the then valid Bilateral, recently got cancelled because of a change in the bilateral and that a new request by them was accepted to be taken into consideration 2 days later.
This also matches the statement from Wathelet, saying no decision has been made as well as the open fields In the right hand side of the grid .
I can imagine Brussels Airlines will also file a request for those extra flights and then it's up to the government to award them to whoever they feel most suited. As we have seen with Mauritius, the government could very well award them to Brussels Airlines and in fact I'd expect then to do that.
Of course, it would be nice for the local Congolese community to have an alternative available, but IMHO, it wouldn't make much sense in the bigger picture if Belgium wants to take its commitment serious of helping the local authorities gain expertise (through Korongo as main vehicle, with Brussels airlines as their feeder), nor does it help the only network airline your country has and which the government would want to see grow as they generate more employment per passenger than a point-to-point airline does due to the way they have to operate.... Would be a bit foolish to take measures in support of them on a Monday, only to take decisions which basically cancel all that on Tuesday, although politics in Belgium is often about just that exactly.

Back to my question: anybody knows if the airport in Lubumbashi could accommodate a long haul flight from BRU? Getting it up to international safety standards was one of the things Korongo did (and which matches the reference to it I the bilateral), but does it also include the ability to handle planes bigger than a 737 according to 'our' rules?

[airazurxtror]

Competition is always good for the customer, and the Belgian Government shoud give Jetairfly a chance to do it.
It could help lower the fares to Africa, which I understand are not amongst the cheapest.
That Brussels Airlines must stay alone on the route because it's helping the locals gain expertise (?) is just a pretext, of course.

[Tomskii]

Meh economy wise AFI flights are ok cheap.. SN does promotions on all their AFI routes on a rotating basis.

[RoMax]

When I look at SN's current promotion page at their website, they give a price of 1046 euro for a ticket to/from FIH... So yes, prices are really high (only to Dakar and Nairobi you get tickets lower than 600 euro, but that's 595 and 596 respectively... :p ). But that's good for SN, with such prices and loads of cargo, you don't always need 70-80% loadfactor to be profitable.
Jetairfly starting flights to FIH would probably mean lower prices and for SN that's not great. But yeay, it's competition. JAF and SN are both private companies, if they want to fly both to FIH and the government believes it's the best to let them both operate the route, so be it. JAF is not a company to say "oh well, SN flies there, we'll pick something else" if they believe they can make money overthere.

[BrightCedars]

According to Great Circle FBM has a runway length of 3238m at an elevation of 1309m!

Does anybody know if that's good enough for a fully loaded heavy when it's hot and humid, which I think it mostly is.

[rwandan-flyer]

anybody knows if the airport in Lubumbashi could accommodate a long haul flight from BRU? Getting it up to international safety standards was one of the things Korongo did (and which matches the reference to it I the bilateral), but does it also include the ability to handle planes bigger than a 737 according to 'our' rules?

I remember that some years ago both Ethiopian and SAA threatened to leave FBM, due to poors facilities.

[sn26567]

I remember that some years ago both Ethiopian and SAA threatened to leave FBM, due to poor facilities.

But meanwhile Korongo has upgraded the facilities to international standards.

[tolipanebas]

I remember that some years ago both Ethiopian and SAA threatened to leave FBM, due to poor facilities.

But meanwhile Korongo has upgraded the facilities to international standards.

The main issue would not be linked to performance issues, but rather the certified fire fighting capabilities category of the airport.

After significant investment in and training of the fire fighting department of the airport, FBM is now officially cat 8 according to the Belgian CAA.

The 737 only need cat 6 for routine operations, so Korongo can operate there without a safety problem, but the A330 officially needs cat 9: however, the Belgian CAA can accept routine operations at a cat 8 airport if certain operational conditions are met, so the answer -as with everything in the RDC- is not as straightforward as it may look at first.

If others want to venture into the RDC too, they will soon enough discover that the RDC may be a high fare country, but that this doesnt necessarily equate into high profits for the operator.

FWIW, I can tell you FIH isn't nearly as high yielding for SN as many may think it is, based on ticket prices.
The reason for that is exactly in the fact that operating there costs tons of money which is spent on all sort of elementary operational things and unexpected extra's which we all think of as just normal, but which aren't present overthere. FIH is no JFK or PUJ for instance, even though flight times and thus direct operating costs might be roughly similar: it's all the money spent on the ground which is just unbelievable.

[Flanker2]

There are plusses and minusses.
It's not entirely true that a FIH operation brings higher costs for sure.

Even though SN hires several local personnel, these earn nowhere near what people earn in the U.S. For individual sales, they work a lot with local agencies and the commissions are not as high as they are in Europe.
Accommodation costs for crews are also cheaper than somewhere like JFK.

Similarily, rent for personnel and airport facilities are cheaper at FIH. You need to invest in ground equipment, but the largest cost to ground ops is personnel.

If anything, the bribes are the highest cost to doing business in Congo.

[tolipanebas]

If you really think all ground operations in FIH must be cheap because it's just the RDC, think again: It's one of our most expensive stations.

Just to illustrate some of the things you need to spent tons of money on as an airline:
armed escort of crew with multiple vehicules to and from the airport, especially after dark.

Try to save money on your private 'militia' and your crew will be stipped naked (or worse) well before they make it into the safety of their hotel, guaranteed.

FIH really isn't PUJ where you just take a minivan and drive to the local RIU branch while drinking your first cocktail. Kinshasa is one of the 5 most dangerous cities in the world for westerners after dark, topped only by illustrious places like Bagdad for instance...

[Vinnie-Winnie]

There are plusses and minusses.
It's not entirely true that a FIH operation brings higher costs for sure.

Even though SN hires several local personnel, these earn nowhere near what people earn in the U.S. For individual sales, they work a lot with local agencies and the commissions are not as high as they are in Europe.
Accommodation costs for crews are also cheaper than somewhere like JFK.

Similarily, rent for personnel and airport facilities are cheaper at FIH. You need to invest in ground equipment, but the largest cost to ground ops is personnel.

If anything, the bribes are the highest cost to doing business in Congo.

Glad with have our resident expert on hand! Same one that thinks that Denver & Sao-Paulo are the obvious destinations for SN! Seriously...

Africa is horrendously expensive to do any business in. Yes labour is cheap, but anything else is far from cheap. Monopolies, bureaucracy, lack of security, rules and regulations and more make this continent the most expensive place to do business in.

good source of interesting information on aviation in africa can be found on: http://www.theafricanaviationtribune.com/

Worthy read for anyone that doesn't know anything about Africa but is interested by the continent and its aviation industry!

[Flanker2]

If you really think all ground operations in FIH must be cheap because it's just the RDC, think again: It's one of our most expensive stations.

Just to illustrate some of the things you need to spent tons of money on as an airline:
armed escort of crew with multiple vehicules to and from the airport, especially after dark.

Try to save money on your private 'militia' and your crew will be stipped naked (or worse) well before they make it into the safety of their hotel, guaranteed.

FIH really isn't PUJ where you just take a minivan and drive to the local RIU branch while drinking your first cocktail. Kinshasa is one of the 5 most dangerous cities in the world for westerners after dark, topped only by illustrious places like Bagdad for instance...

Tolipanebas, my friend. You're forgetting who you're talking to.
The SN crews are driven to their "luxurious 5 star hotel compound"(smell the sarcasm) 10 miles out of the city in armored GMC trucks (more sarcasm) presidentially escorted by 3 armored vehicles full with elite soldiers armed to their teeth (ultra-sarcasm). The alternative was the cheaper (hum hum) western-style 5 star (a real 5-star) Memling hotel 4 blocks from the airport where they used to stay safely since 30 years, even in worse times.

You can make some people believe anything, but not me.
I wouldn't be so sure that the whole "escort plus accommodation" combo would cost a dime more than crew accommodation in JFK.

So what's your next excuse? Keep them coming.

[Flanker2]

There are plusses and minusses.
It's not entirely true that a FIH operation brings higher costs for sure.

Even though SN hires several local personnel, these earn nowhere near what people earn in the U.S. For individual sales, they work a lot with local agencies and the commissions are not as high as they are in Europe.
Accommodation costs for crews are also cheaper than somewhere like JFK.

Similarily, rent for personnel and airport facilities are cheaper at FIH. You need to invest in ground equipment, but the largest cost to ground ops is personnel.

If anything, the bribes are the highest cost to doing business in Congo.

Glad with have our resident expert on hand! Same one that thinks that Denver & Sao-Paulo are the obvious destinations for SN! Seriously...

Africa is horrendously expensive to do any business in. Yes labour is cheap, but anything else is far from cheap. Monopolies, bureaucracy, lack of security, rules and regulations and more make this continent the most expensive place to do business in.

good source of interesting information on aviation in africa can be found on: http://www.theafricanaviationtribune.com/

Worthy read for anyone that doesn't know anything about Africa but is interested by the continent and its aviation industry!

Africa is expensive to do business if you want to build a huge operation, like a new mine or a factory.
The major issue is logistics.
But as far as it concerns Jetair operating there, which I remind is the whole discussion of this topic, the only major investment is like I said, the bribes and the ground equipment. All the rest that they spend extra in some area's, they spend less in other area's and pretty much should cancel out.

Be reminded that Jetair will be targeting the O&D leisure industry, which requires much less local sales resources compared to SN. SN need to bare the overhead cost of attracting business pax and cargo, which requires to have local representation (their Kin office + sales staff).

[Vinnie-Winnie]

Africa is expensive to do business if you want to build a huge operation, like a new mine or a factory.
The major issue is logistics.
But as far as it concerns Jetair operating there, which I remind is the whole discussion of this topic, the only major investment is like I said, the bribes and the ground equipment. All the rest that they spend extra in some area's, they spend less in other area's and pretty much should cancel out.

Be reminded that Jetair will be targeting the O&D leisure industry, which requires much less local sales resources compared to SN. SN need to bare the overhead cost of attracting business pax and cargo, which requires to have local representation (their Kin office + sales staff).

Where do you get your knowledge from seriously? U've been told many times by people that actually have knowledge in airline/airport management & pilots that your ideas don't pan out. Still though you carry on spreading the gospel as if it was right whereas obviously you have no idea. You discard any reality with sarcasm and false truths.

Read this document and learn if you really wanna have a general idea of flying into the DRC:

http://www.afdb.org/fileadmin/uploads/a ... PSA%29.pdf

[b-west]

If you really think all ground operations in FIH must be cheap because it's just the RDC, think again: It's one of our most expensive stations.

Just to illustrate some of the things you need to spent tons of money on as an airline:
armed escort of crew with multiple vehicules to and from the airport, especially after dark.

Try to save money on your private 'militia' and your crew will be stipped naked (or worse) well before they make it into the safety of their hotel, guaranteed.

FIH really isn't PUJ where you just take a minivan and drive to the local RIU branch while drinking your first cocktail. Kinshasa is one of the 5 most dangerous cities in the world for westerners after dark, topped only by illustrious places like Bagdad for instance...

Tolipanebas, my friend. You're forgetting who you're talking to.
The SN crews are driven to their "luxurious 5 star hotel compound"(smell the sarcasm) 10 miles out of the city in armored GMC trucks (more sarcasm) presidentially escorted by 3 armored vehicles full with elite soldiers armed to their teeth (ultra-sarcasm). The alternative was the cheaper (hum hum) western-style 5 star (a real 5-star) Memling hotel 4 blocks from the airport where they used to stay safely since 30 years, even in worse times.

You can make some people believe anything, but not me.
I wouldn't be so sure that the whole "escort plus accommodation" combo would cost a dime more than crew accommodation in JFK.

So what's your next excuse? Keep them coming.

Sorry, but you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. The Memling hotel is in the town centre, off the Boulevard du 30 juin, quite a drive from the airport. Made worse by the horrible state of the road to and from the airport. You also have to pass through a very densely populated neighbourhood of the city, forgotten the name of it, where hundreds if not thousands of people are clogging the road.

I've been to Congo a few times now, and it is indeed unsafe. Last January I walked from the Memling to the Belgian embassy, for those not familiar with Kin, that's a 10 minute walk at most. The security staff at the embassy was actually shocked to hear we did that and pleaded with us not to do this again.

As far as I know, SN crew still stays at the Memling. Which, together with the hotel Royal near the presidential palace, is pretty much the only decent place to stay in Kinshasa. And their crew bus is indeed escorted by armoured guards. And quite necessary so.

Edit: I guess your google maps knowledge led you to the conclusion that the airport is a mere 4 blocks away from the Memling. But that's the local airport of N'dolo... SN flies to N'djili.

[tolipanebas]

Tolipanebas, my friend. You're forgetting who you're talking to.

Not at all...

I am talking to the self declared expert who's operational knowledge is limited to what he can find online and in this case managed to mix up the location of the city airport of Ndolo with the international airport of Ndjili in Kinshasa. Google maps sure is confusing if you haven't been there yourself, it's it?

So what's your next excuse? Keep them coming.

I rather stop here.
No need to expose you any further because your reaction is very well known from past discussions: abusive behaviour to hide your total lack of knowledge: nobody here is waiting for you to steer this topic that way once again, especially not if it is only to enlighten us all with commonplace data found online which you can't even correctly read!

[Flanker2]

As far as I know, SN crew still stays at the Memling. Which, together with the hotel Royal near the presidential palace, is pretty much the only decent place to stay in Kinshasa. And their crew bus is indeed escorted by armoured guards. And quite necessary so.

Edit: I guess your google maps knowledge led you to the conclusion that the airport is a mere 4 blocks away from the Memling. But that's the local airport of N'dolo... SN flies to N'djili.

Well you maybe live in the virtual world.
4 blocks is just a figure of speech, it means that it's not far. If you take the outside road by the waters, it's a safe 10 minutes ride and no people blocking the road in the evening/night.

More recently SN crews have been staying in a compound outside the city, citing safety concerns with the unrests in the city (or maybe money saving measures). The escort, if that's what you want to call it.. It's not a bunch of elite soldiers or secret service guys. It's 1 or 2 "security" guys in a old Toyota truck with a few guns on them who show up when they feel like it. Probably paid through one of the bribe agreements.

Kin is bad? I'll take Kin over Borgerhout or Schaarbeek any time. Of course, anywhere you go, if you look like a rich tourist, waving around with your smile, your money, and your LV bags, bad things can happen.
If you want to be safe, stay home and do nothing.

[b-west]

Up until now, Flanker, I didn't intervene much in discussions with you because my technical knowledge of aviation is limited at best. But now you've entered a field of which I'm more knowledgable, and I feel very confident in calling your statements absolute and total nonsense. 10 minutes to FIH from the Memling? By heli perhaps...