Possible scam with take-off weight at Ryanair

[Yuri166]

No,... The question is not weather the German regulations and taxing is outdated or not, I think we all can agree that is is...

But the fact that it is, doesn't give an airline the right to disobay them.

So the question is, how believable is it for a big carrier as Ryanair to claim that tyey didn't know.
Ich habe es nicht gewust...

In my opinion, not very believable...
Does anybody know how many years of backtax can be claimed in Germany? 5 years?


Other interesting question, though off topic here, if a similar situation would have developed with Ryanair in Belgium, would these millions be paid by Charleroi?

[tolipanebas]

...

The billing policy is perfectly clear and exactly the same for everybody; in case of multiple MTOW versions on your certificate, the HIGHEST MTOW is taken into accout for all billing purposes.

Exactly what do you not understand about that?

[shockcooling]

Why does everybody blame FR??
Shouldn't we blaming the German authorities?
When FR pays less in CRL than BruAir in Bru it is unfair, but when FR has to pay more you find it normal, strange!
I will make it clear with an example:
EZY buys two factory fresh 319's (G-EZYA and G-EZYB) with a max certified TOW of 70 ton and uses them, in accordance with an Airbus option at variable Max TOW of 64, 66 and 68 ton.
After 5 years G-EZYA is sold to BruAir, who can't afford new aircraft, and becomes OO-BRU, with 66ton as Max TOW on its Airworthiness Certificate.
One day both in Berlin, G-EZYB (derated to 66ton on that day) and OO-BRU both operate BER-BRU, they both take off with 60ton, well under their maximum weight. So both aircraft are identical, the have the same Max TOW and the same actual TOW and are operating the same route.
According to the German authorities EZY will have to pay more in fees than BruAIr.
Is this fair? Level playing field anybody?

Is it possible to mention where we can find some more info on this nice option? As far as I know it, it's possible to lower your MTOW on an Airbus, but it's not like you can choose out of several ones... SN has several 319 with lower and different MTOW to cater for some routes, but this has indeed been changed on its Airworthiness Certificate by the CAA, with only 1 MTOW.

I'll make it clear with an example:

An A320 main landing gear placard, funny I only see 1 MTOW

[fcw]

...

The billing policy is perfectly clear and exactly the same for everybody; in case of multiple MTOW versions on your certificate, the HIGHEST MTOW is taken into accout for all billing purposes.

Exactly what do you not understand about that?

Just like the billing policy in BRU/CRL is very clear and just as the Irish and belgian social security contributios are very clear. So why do you not understand about those? Why do you find those differences unfair whilst the difference in ATC fees not???

[fcw]

Is it possible to mention where we can find some more info on this nice option? As far as I know it, it's possible to lower your MTOW on an Airbus, but it's not like you can choose out of several ones... SN has several 319 with lower and different MTOW to cater for some routes, but this has indeed been changed on its Airworthiness Certificate by the CAA, with only 1 MTOW.

I'll make it clear with an example:

An A320 main landing gear placard, funny I only see 1 MTOW

From the UK CAA website:
2 Varying the MTOW Authorised in the Aircraft Flight Manual (AFM)
2.1 AOC holders can obtain alternative Flight Limitation pages for take-off weights for their particular aircraft from an appropriately approved design organisation and incorporate these pages in their AFM. AOC holders who notify CAA Applications and Approvals by e-mail ([email protected]) will have the revised weight entered upon that aircraft’s Registration Database record. This change will be reflected in the CAA website and G-INFO service, and the MTOW approved will therefore be apparent to Air Navigation Service Providers (ANSPs).2.2 The e-mail to the CAA must include the following information:
• AOC number under which the aeroplane is operated.
• Aeroplane type, registration and serial number.
• Revised MTOW.
• Effective date of the change in weight.
• Confirmation that this is a weight change controlled by the AFM.

[shockcooling]

Is it possible to mention where we can find some more info on this nice option? ...

From the UK CAA website:
2 Varying the MTOW Authorised in the Aircraft Flight Manual (AFM)
2.1 AOC holders can obtain alternative Flight Limitation pages for take-off weights for their particular aircraft from an appropriately approved design organisation and incorporate these pages in their AFM. AOC holders who notify CAA Applications and Approvals by e-mail ([email protected]) will have the revised weight entered upon that aircraft’s Registration Database record. This change will be reflected in the CAA website and G-INFO service, and the MTOW approved will therefore be apparent to Air Navigation Service Providers (ANSPs).2.2 The e-mail to the CAA must include the following information:
• AOC number under which the aeroplane is operated.
• Aeroplane type, registration and serial number.
• Revised MTOW.
• Effective date of the change in weight.
• Confirmation that this is a weight change controlled by the AFM.

Nice, but I'm just asking you to state where you got the info for Airbus in the AFM, not from a CAA. As in your quote the last bullit is stating, it has to be in accordance with the AFM, therefore my remark, as I just don't believe it's that easy to change it with an Airbus. At least for me, for almost 2 years I haven't seen any engineer changing the MTOW in the cockpit because we wanted to have a different MTOW for the day, like Ryanair does it. It's is requiring a lot more work, as seen in the previous post, several placards and certificates have to be changed...
So, I don't think EZY and SN pay different fees.

I would like to know how other 737 operators compared to Ryanair in Germany like Air Berlin, Sun Express, Germania,... do it.

[fcw]

Is it possible to mention where we can find some more info on this nice option? ...

From the UK CAA website:...

Nice, but I'm just asking you to state where you got the info for Airbus in the AFM, not from a CAA. As in your quote the last bullit is stating, it has to be in accordance with the AFM, therefore my remark, as I just don't believe it's that easy to change it with an Airbus. At least for me, for almost 2 years I haven't seen any engineer changing the MTOW in the cockpit because we wanted to have a different MTOW for the day, like Ryanair does it. It's is requiring a lot more work, as seen in the previous post, several placards and certificates have to be changed...
So, I don't think EZY and SN pay different fees.

I would like to know how other 737 operators compared to Ryanair in Germany like Air Berlin, Sun Express, Germania,... do it.

If you don't believe me lets hope you believe the Airbus FCOM, chapter limitations:
* Multiple MTOW are certified. A placard fitted on the aircraft must reflect the current MTOW.

[Passenger]

Germany has set out the rules very clearly, without any possible discussion. tolipanebas has cleared this up from the first day this topic was online:

... Germany interprets 'MAX allowable TOW' as 'MAX MTOW allowable', not as 'selected MTOW from a set of MTOWs'. As such, Germany will ALWAYS charge you to the highest MTOW version you have available, even if you could use a lower MTOW too on a certain flight, period. They have always been doing so, so you can expect a bill if you guys have been interpreting this differently.

For the non believers, he added:

... You can indeed decide to reduce the max certified MTOW of your plane, but what you can't do is have several MTOW packs and chose between them, depending the circumstances which one you'll use for the flight, as in that case Germany will ALWAYs tax you on the highest MTOW version allowed, even if you could have selected another one. That Is a procedure allowed by Boeing indeed, but not accepted by Germany and the comments from your airline, they fall in line with that too...

Conclusion: if you don't understand it by now, read these two posts again. And again. And again. Till you understand it's actually very simple.

[cede21]

After having a look at the IAA website, I'm not so sure anymore that the aircraft are rated for up to 74,990. They all seem to be registered as 66,990...
http://www.iaa.ie/Latest-Published-Airc ... monthly-ch

[shockcooling]

If you don't believe me lets hope you believe the Airbus FCOM, chapter limitations:
* Multiple MTOW are certified. A placard fitted on the aircraft must reflect the current MTOW.

Sorry guys, going off topic here. But yes, I do believe the FCOM, so just try to explain me why you think an ex-easy A319 AFM would be so different with SN as it was with EZY concerning multiple MTOW...

Passenger, great, I don't have to read it again, it was clear from the beginning.
We seem to be going the wrong direction with this topic, as in LCC against the rest. I would like to know more info from other 737 operators, who are flying to/from Germany for ex...

[sean1982]

Germany has set out the rules very clearly, without any possible discussion. tolipanebas has cleared this up from the first day this topic was online:

... Germany interprets 'MAX allowable TOW' as 'MAX MTOW allowable', not as 'selected MTOW from a set of MTOWs'. As such, Germany will ALWAYS charge you to the highest MTOW version you have available, even if you could use a lower MTOW too on a certain flight, period. They have always been doing so, so you can expect a bill if you guys have been interpreting this differently.

For the non believers, he added:

... You can indeed decide to reduce the max certified MTOW of your plane, but what you can't do is have several MTOW packs and chose between them, depending the circumstances which one you'll use for the flight, as in that case Germany will ALWAYs tax you on the highest MTOW version allowed, even if you could have selected another one. That Is a procedure allowed by Boeing indeed, but not accepted by Germany and the comments from your airline, they fall in line with that too...

Conclusion: if you don't understand it by now, read these two posts again. And again. And again. Till you understand it's actually very simple.

This is the thing: The airplanes are in the register as 66.990kg and very occasionally get changed to 69.990 or 74.990 in real time after wihich the MTOW is reduced again to 66.990kg. So the MTOW is SOMETIMES higher then 66.990 in the register for a few hours, but then changed again. Now read this over and over till you get it.

[sean1982]

If you don't believe me lets hope you believe the Airbus FCOM, chapter limitations:
* Multiple MTOW are certified. A placard fitted on the aircraft must reflect the current MTOW.

Sorry guys, going off topic here. But yes, I do believe the FCOM, so just try to explain me why you think an ex-easy A319 AFM would be so different with SN as it was with EZY concerning multiple MTOW...

Passenger, great, I don't have to read it again, it was clear from the beginning.
We seem to be going the wrong direction with this topic, as in LCC against the rest. I would like to know more info from other 737 operators, who are flying to/from Germany for ex...

They don't care about other operators here as long as they can do their "thing". Anyway most operators have a certain part of their fleet on a low MTOW and another part on a high MTOW for the longer routes. This is nor practical for airlines of the size of ryanair as they constantly have the airplanes rotating around their bases (who all have a different mix of short and medium haul routes) according to the maintenance schedule

[Passenger]

This is the thing: The airplanes are in the register as 66.990kg and very occasionally get changed to 69.990 or 74.990 in real time after wihich the MTOW is reduced again to 66.990kg. So the MTOW is SOMETIMES higher then 66.990 in the register for a few hours, but then changed again. Now read this over and over till you get it.

Yes, that may be all true, but that is not relevant. Is it really that difficult to accept that in Germany, German law prevails to Irish law, to Boeing's manuals and, oh boy, even to Ryanair's company policy? And German law is very clear about the MTOW: "... Germany interprets 'MAX allowable TOW' as 'MAX MTOW allowable', not as 'selected MTOW from a set of MTOWs'. As such, Germany will ALWAYS charge you to the highest MTOW version you have available, even if you could use a lower MTOW too on a certain flight." (quote tolibanebas indeed)

[sean1982]

And the MTOW is 66.990 as per IAA register, is it that difficult to understand?

[tolipanebas]

WHAT you've been doing doesn't interest people: by now they have all understood it's possible...
Please move to WHY you have been doing it, despite it not being allowed for billing purposes, will you?

[sean1982]

I'm not going to repeat myself, buy a pair of glasses and read

[Airbus330lover]

I suggest to stop the discussion and wait for the court decision (if they decide)

[sn26567]

I suggest to stop the discussion and wait for the court decision (if they decide)

Seconded.

Please feel free to start a new thread on the same topic in due time.