Possible scam with take-off weight at Ryanair

[teddybAIR]

According to this article I just read in De Standaard, Ryanair possibly reported lower take-off weights on their flights across Europe, sometimes filing TOW's 8 tons lower than actual and thereby avoiding part of the airport charges. The savings they accumulated with this practise across Europe could accumulate to about €50m.

Ryanair did not react to the speculations and states that they follow standard Boeing procedures and that they will anwswer all questions of the European aviation authorities. The german authorities are investigating the case.

Source: De Standaard & Die Welt

[fcw]

Once again NONSENSE from journo's!!!
The 737 has a variable max TOW, you only use the weight you need up to the MAX certified.
This is a common technique used by all airlines, to reduce ATC fees. You pay according to your max TOW. So why pay for 80 ton if you only need 70?
I think Airbus uses the same technique, but it needs a bit more paperwork whilst for the 737 the weight can be changed before each flight.

[sean1982]

exactly, to be done by a B1-engineer in the aircraft tech log and the MTOW plate in the flightdeck

[pressman]

All true , but the german ANO clearly states that the charges should be for the MAX allowable TOW even if flex weights are being used , in this case 74990kgs .

[sean1982]

what's the point off allowing flex weights in the first place then?

[fcw]

The MAX allowable, is what is in the tech log for that flight, it is not the MAX certified of the aircraft.

[tolipanebas]

Germany interprets 'MAX allowable TOW' as 'MAX MTOW allowable', not as 'selected MTOW from a set of MTOWs'.
As such, Germany will ALWAYS charge you to the highest MTOW version you have available, even if you could use a lower MTOW too on a certain flight, period.
They have always been doing so, so you can expect a bill if you guys have been interpreting this differently.

[sean1982]

MAX TOW allowable does not equal MAX TOW certified, that's the point

[SNam]

I only know one case were a Belgian company had set a lower Max TOW for a flight to a French airport to avoid more taxes but here no limits were exceeded.

The article just mentions FR use a lower Max TOW, they don't say anything about exceeding the Max TOW.

Just some poor journalism?

[tolipanebas]

No it doesn't indeed, sean1982; you can indeed decide to reduce the max certified MTOW of your plane, but what you can't do is have several MTOW packs and chose between them, depending the circumstances which one you'll use for the flight, as in that case Germany will ALWAYs tax you on the highest MTOW version allowed, even if you could have selected another one. That Is a procedure allowed by Boeing indeed, but not accepted by Germany and the comments from your airline, they fall in line with that too....

[sean1982]

So if your flightdeck placard says 66.990kg they wil still charge you for 74.990kg??

[tolipanebas]

As I've said: they do not accept variable MTOWs for one and the same plane; they will always charge to the highest version. That highest version needn't be the max certified MTOW on the type certificate of your plane, but if for instance you have the option between 2 weight packs so to say, it's ALWAYS going to be the highest, even if you display a label in the cockpit saying today you use the lighter version.
Hey, don't shoot me, it's not me inventing the rules in Germany.

[fcw]

Germany interprets 'MAX allowable TOW' as 'MAX MTOW allowable', not as 'selected MTOW from a set of MTOWs'.
As such, Germany will ALWAYS charge you to the highest MTOW version you have available, even if you could use a lower MTOW too on a certain flight, period.
They have always been doing so, so you can expect a bill if you guys have been interpreting this differently.

EZY 319s are certified for 70 tons I think.
BruAir bought some but has 67 tons as max TOW. Are you guys paying fees for 70 tons in Germany?

[sean1982]

I'm not shooting you, I didn't know that. It does seem pretty ridiculous anyhow. It's like going to the gass station and getting 20l of fuel but having to pay 45l just because you're tank is big enough to carry it.

[sean1982]

Germany interprets 'MAX allowable TOW' as 'MAX MTOW allowable', not as 'selected MTOW from a set of MTOWs'.
As such, Germany will ALWAYS charge you to the highest MTOW version you have available, even if you could use a lower MTOW too on a certain flight, period.
They have always been doing so, so you can expect a bill if you guys have been interpreting this differently.

EZY 319s are certified for 70 tons I think.
BruAir bought some but has 67 tons as max TOW. Are you guys paying fees for 70 tons in Germany?

Not if BruAir declared them all as max 67tons, I believe then

[tolipanebas]

I'm not shooting you, I didn't know that. It does seem pretty ridiculous anyhow. It's like going to the gass station and getting 20l of fuel but having to pay 45l just because you're tank is big enough to carry it.

Funny way to look at it, but yes indeed.
The reasoning being -to continue on your fuel tank comparison- is that there's no meter on the German fuel pump, so they just assume you to have topped it up all the time.
Want to pay less, have the capacity of the tank reduced by the manufacturer and get him change your plane's type certificate; simply having an engineer state you will just fill it up to half way today, won't do in Germany.

[teddybAIR]

It's like going to the gass station and getting 20l of fuel but having to pay 45l just because you're tank is big enough to carry it.

It is rather like the tax on your car that is based on the brake horse power: it is based on the certified brake horse power, regardless of how many horse power you actually use in traffic.

[tolipanebas]

It's like going to the gass station and getting 20l of fuel but having to pay 45l just because you're tank is big enough to carry it.

It is rather like the tax on your car that is based on the brake horse power: it is based on the certified brake horse power, regardless of how many horse power you actually use in traffic.

Indeed, and for exactly this reason, car manufacturers often derate their engines.
But note how this must be done by the manufacturer and stated on the certificate of conformity issued by him; your local car shop can not derate your car's engine for fiscal purposes.
Same principle applies here.

[teddybAIR]

This article is a little more elaborate. A small passage:

According to the EU aviation body Eurocontrol and Germany's Federal Air Traffic Controlling Office, the Boeing 737-800s of the Dublin-based carrier's uniform fleet are registered with a maximum take-off mass of 67 tons each aircraft'.

But Cargo Forwarder says: 'However, some of the traffic watchers must have become suspicious when comparing the Irish discounter's low MTOM weights with data delivered by other carriers having the same Boeing variant in their fleet.

'This resulted in numerous on-the-spot checks of Ryanair flights to and from Germany, particularly at Ryanair's hub Frankfurt-Hahn. The outcome of these controls seems to have corroborated the aviation authority's concerns over the doubtful weight declaration submitted by the Irish airline.'
It adds:'At all inspections the declared MTOM of 67 tons had clearly been exceeded, occasionally by up to eight tons,' emphasizes a source close to the case. For Ryanair a bitter and probably costly resume since the findings clearly contradict the weights submitted by the no-frills airline to the authorities.'

Hm, maybe not such amateuristic journalism after all?

[sean1982]

That's simply not true, FR's 737 are rated for 74990kg and not 66990kg (which is one of the flexi weights available)