MR_Boeing wrote:
They have to agree, there is not other option.
The unions don't have to agree to everything that the management request.
There will be a negociation, I imagine. Where everyone will give and take something.
If Mister Gustin is a bit smart (I said : if), he has asked for more than he really wants to get, so that he can let go a bit in the discussions and the unions don't lose face.
One can only hope that the whole process will be performed without resorting to industrial actions.
In an article about SN it's said that the discussions between the unions and the management aren't going that smooth.
The pilots don't want to give in without real prove from the management that the future of SN is secured with this plan.
It is also said that the European reductions next summer will basicly mean a reduction of 3 A319's. On the other side it's the intention to add 6 A330's of the next 6 years (thanks to 100 million of Lufthansa). The expansion will largely focus on the United States.
But this is only possible if the unions and management can come to an agreement.
According to the magazine article referenced above, the demands of management are now such that some members of the union delegation said bluntly they would rather have a blood-stained plan that would ensure the future of the business by honorably thanking some of the staff rather than a plan that would displease everyone without necessarily ascertaining a rosy future for the airline. It remains that such a "bloodbath" paradoxically requested by some pilots would certainly not be good for the image of Brussels Airlines in the eyes of his customers ...
it's simple. Every employee is asked for a 5% (or even a 15% for long haul pilot increase in productivity).
Let's say ok.
The future of the company depends apparently only on the pilots who should make huge financial efforts for two years. I thought that in an airline, there were other categories of personnel than pilots? I guess the other employees want a brighter future and want to keep their jobs as well?...So everyone should make a financial effort then, not only the pilots!
it's simple. Every employee is asked for a 5% (or even a 15% for long haul pilot increase in productivity).
Let's say ok.
The future of the company depends apparently only on the pilots who should make huge financial efforts for two years. I thought that in an airline, there were other categories of personnel than pilots? I guess the other employees want a brighter future and want to keep their jobs as well?...So everyone should make a financial effort then, not only the pilots!
Tout le monde dans la même galère....
Not true, everyone is making sacrifices. It is true that most of the sacrifices have to be made by the flight crew, but it's not that other departements are left untouched. For instance the lone freezing is for everyone
that's what I just said. The salary freeze for everyone ok, but are they taking 15% of gross salary from other employees?
I would like to know, really...and I may be wrong, then sorry.
Maybe they will ask to take away the 13th month, it represents 7-8% of the annual salary income...then it's positive, everyone makes an effort..we are not at 15% but that's already positive...but is it in the plan? or something like that? I'm curious...
They are asking for increase in productivity in every department.
They are not taking 15% of gross salary.
It's not the same and increase in productivity is something what happened at Austrian / Tyrolean Airways.
A classical trick used by managers.
First decrease productivy against salary decrease followed by a productivity increase without the increase of salary. So the final result is exactly what Memmed fears: a salary cut!
Airbuske:
They ARE taking 15% out of our salary by FORCING us to work part time.
please get your facts straight....
(and they already took away a lot in pension contribution which they wont have to pay anymore for the govt but also somehow they got away with not compensating US for it)
Memmed & b.inventive: why do pilots always think they're the only one who have to give in?
The choice is yours actually: either pilots have to be fired or you all do an effort to keep jobs by flying less (and still earning loads of money, it's not like you're going home at the end of the month with 1.500 EUR net).
As far as the offices are concerned: have you looked around already to count the empty desks in b.house? I wouldn't say you're the only one to give in, I'd say that all the others just started a year earlier to give in.
SN1203 wrote:Memmed & b.inventive: why do pilots always think they're the only one who have to give in?
...
Well here you have it!
They propose to save around 20 million per year from the pilots only! Doesn't matter how you look at it, but I find that a lot...
SN1203 wrote:Memmed & b.inventive: why do pilots always think they're the only one who have to give in?
The choice is yours actually: either pilots have to be fired or you all do an effort to keep jobs by flying less (and still earning loads of money, it's not like you're going home at the end of the month with 1.500 EUR net).
If you subtract 1000€/month to pay back the training cost a lot of BruAir pilots will go home with less than 1500€/month.
Luckily for you, you have the opportunity to keep your job! Any idea of what's going on in the world?
On your next flight, while George is in charge, please do open a newspaper...
If you subtract 1000€/month to pay back the training cost a lot of BruAir pilots will go home with less than 1500€/month.
OK, so if your CEO tells you that he wants to protect pilot jobs by letting all pilots work 80% or whatever, who exactly do you think he's protecting? Exactly those people who're still paying for their training as they're the juniors who could probably have the biggest risk to be fired if there are too many pilots!
SN1203, where have you been the last years? They're trying to get rid of (not fire!) the most expensive pilots, who are earning more than double my income for example. They can because of the old pension system, as in 55+.
If you subtract 1000€/month to pay back the training cost a lot of BruAir pilots will go home with less than 1500€/month.
OK, so if your CEO tells you that he wants to protect pilot jobs by letting all pilots work 80% or whatever, who exactly do you think he's protecting? Exactly those people who're still paying for their training as they're the juniors who could probably have the biggest risk to be fired if there are too many pilots!
Let's not pretend to be completely naive; thinking you can make only juniors redundant is not going to work, unless you want to set off massive cascade trainings. Reality is you'd have to act on all fleets and in all functions, rather than just target low time F/O's on the RJ, so a realistic lay off plan would also have to include laying off high time A32F captains for instance.
Any idea how much it would cost to linearly make say 15% of the pilot community redundant using the formule Claeys?
Let's just say that the proposed softer way is not entirely surprisingly also the cheapest way for the company, yet it clearly annoys certain people in management when this is said during an O/R meeting, to the point where they lose their temper. I suppose you know what I am talking about?
I think that if they'd do a referendum that the unions would be surprised to be honest. Now people will loose their jobs because of the unions still with a Sabena mentality. Aviation is changing, unions are not.
let's make it clear. I think the pilots are not that stupid and they understand what's going on right now in Europe.
The only thing which is not clear with this 85% thing is this:
Pilots on the Avro sector fly +/- 650 hours/year (Avro) and are paid to fly 750. That's the way it is since 10 years.
Sor for me, it's simple. If the pilots still continue to fly their 650 hours or more, the production will be the same. Then being paid 15 or 10% less for 2 years is really a salary cut.
On the other hand, I would totally agree to work 85% if our production would decrease to 550 hours (85%).
But to be honest, until now, I didn't have any answer on that.
If I read the papers when George is in charge, I see lots of opportunities. But, not in Europe, nor the US.
With the loss of career plan (with plenty of young PIC's that will fly till 65...), the loss of the pension plan, the loss of overtime pay etc. & the dramatic new conditions to come, the East suddenly looks a lot sunnier than it already was...
Time to get that letter of recommandation I would say. Young FO's who left Bru 4 years ago are now flying left seat long haul. Never thought I would end up thinking that direction, times are changing...
Personally I would like to wait to see the investment of LH comming, nevertheless I think we have the wrong partnership and it would make more sense for Brussels and BruAir to have a sound partnership with an Eastern or Middle Eastern company.
Don't be to quick to think the "east" is where the sun is shining. It's a different region, a different culture, different companies. Your life contains much more than the seat you will be flying in for at least 90 hours a month and the money you get for it, but many only realize it after a couple of months in "the east". For a lot of people the "east" can be perfectly fine, but a lot of people are better of in Belgium. It's a choice, it's not "the sun", nor the solution for all Belgian pilots.
