Boeing to re-engine the B737

[RoMax]

I think we would all be delighted if Lockheed were to re-enter the civil airliner market!

Yes that's true, but I think there is only a small chance. But IF lockheed (or some contractor of Lockheed) is able to produce such kind of super strong nano composites they may eventually (after several years of succes for their own) sell such intelligence to other companies. And if not, it proves at least that there are ways to build composites cheaper and faster, just need to found out how... (just a small detail, isn't it... )

[regi]

(btw, maybe you know that some parts of the new Lockheed F-35 will be made as some kind of composite build with nano technology. This product is known and much much stronger than current composites, but expensive to produce. Lockheed says they found a way to produce these new kind of composites much cheaper and faster. Tests with a F-35 started recently. This may eventually influence production of civil aircraft at least if Lockheed is right.)

Yes, I am aware about this. And I can tell you that some Belgian companies are also active in similar fields, see sputtering techniques and special fibres by Bekaert. ( world leader in some fields )

Military applications have led in many cases to cheaper civilian products. It is all about the money. How much is a country able or prepared to put into new technology, without knowing beforehand if it will give a positive economic result ?

[RoMax]

Well, let's hope these kind of material production will be faster and cheaper in the comming decade, so that Boeing and Airbus can build a new narrowbody with these kind of materials...

BTW, just as Boeing last week, Airbus now said they could rise A320 production up to 60/month. It is clear they can't deny any longer the demand for higher production rates if they keep getting such massive orders.

[Desert Rat]

The 737 was designed to be powered by the JT8 engine, the CFM brought the flattened nose cowl, what will it be without enlarging the pivoting point of the MLG with a GTF engine?

I'm curious to see how it will look like..
ALSO, by sending hundreds of engineers on a re-engine project, Boeing will probably loose a lot of ressources for the new design SA project...it is a risky business!!!

[RoMax]

The 737 was designed to be powered by the JT8 engine, the CFM brought the flattened nose cowl, what will it be without enlarging the pivoting point of the MLG with a GTF engine?

It will not be the GTF (geared turbofan), that's the P&W engine and has a fan diameter of 81 cm if I'm correct (for the A320NEO). That's completely out of question for the B737RE. So the smaller CFM Leap-x (wich isn't a GTF as far as I know, so it has a little smaller fan diamter) is the only choice for the B737RE. But still the fan size is a problem. I think the Leap-x for the NEO has a fan diameter of 78 cm, tough not sure at all.

[RoMax]

Alaska Airlines today said they are interested in the new re-engined B737. But it is way too early to speak about orders as Alaska Airlines first heard about the decision to build the re-engined B737 "yesterday as anybody else".
I think that only shows how fast Boeing had to work to secure 'some' orders from AA. Alaska Airlines operates a B737 only fleet of 117 aircraft (classic and NG) 25 more on order and 42 more options... so quite a big client but still they didn't know Boeing would go for the B737RE until yesterday.

Alaska said they want to save money on fuel like everyone else and if Boeing can achieve that rather sooner than later is a good thing. They said they are interested to learn more about the aircraft and to take delivery of these aircraft if everything looks right about costs, fuel burn and so forth.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... d-737.html

As far as I know, the first airline to respond at Boeing's plan after the AA order of yesterday. And its at least encouriging that a big B737 user is happy with the things they currently know about the new B737.

[sn26567]

Boeing said they plan to have final configuration for their re-engined B737 in the next 3 to 4 weeks.

My feeling is that some Boeing engineers will not have a lot of sleep during the coming 3 or 4 weeks.

If there is nothing on the drawing board yet, it is impossible to decide on a configuration in such a short period. If there is already something, it shows that Boeing has been preparing an alternative to a total new plane for already some time. But even then, the Boeing options are probably very vague, having been developed under pressure from Airbus, and, as I said, engineers will have to refine their initial ideas to make them workable. And they will have to do it again under time pressure.

Not a good time to be a Boeing engineer nowadays. I would feel much more at ease at Airbus...

[RoMax]

If there is nothing on the drawing board yet, it is impossible to decide on a configuration in such a short period. If there is already something, it shows that Boeing has been preparing an alternative to a total new plane for already some time. But even then, the Boeing options are probably very vague, having been developed under pressure from Airbus, and, as I said, engineers will have to refine their initial ideas to make them workable. And they will have to do it again under time pressure.

The thing is that Boeing had teams working on a re-engined version and on a new aircraft proposal at the same time. They would work out their own proposals and in the end they would choose wich one is the best proposal. But, yes, they concentrated more on the NSA (new short haul aircraft) so indeed they have a lot of work to do on the re-engined B737.
But it's not that they need to make a final design within 3-4 weeks (the final design is finished only months/weeks before first final assembly). They just have to finish the final configuration, with the biggest(/only?) decision have to be made, the fan size of the engines (and the possible adjustments to the gear).
So, indeed, a lot of work to do, but I think the engineers at Boeing are used to this (just as Airbus engineers are used to work at full speed at some times)...

[earthman]

The 737 was designed to be powered by the JT8 engine, the CFM brought the flattened nose cowl, what will it be without enlarging the pivoting point of the MLG with a GTF engine?

I'm curious to see how it will look like..

Not that much different, the article talked about stretching the nose landing gear by 20 cm, or about 8 inches for the metrically challenged. That's almost nothing for a plane that size. I know it's a small plane compared to its big brothers, but on its own it's actually HUGE. The floor area of the 737-900 is approximately the same as that of my house. And then you still have the cargo hold.

It's not going to look tilted like a DC-3, that's for sure.

[Desert Rat]

Interresting...with a tailwheel then?

[RoMax]

Interresting...with a tailwheel then?

Didn't he just said, it is NOT going to look like a DC3? Even IF they stretch the nose gear (and the nose gear only) with 20cm it will not look THAT different.

[Desert Rat]

just caught a big fish in my net.......

[RC20]

Engine will be a different model CFM than the A320 NEO.

They don't have the clearance to go full size, so it will be in the 70 inch range.

Tough call.

And the NSA would have been a twin aisle I believe, maybe to be seen to initial fill the gap between the single aisle and the 787. As its setup to be scaled down it would fill the 737-800 (Airbus has so many models I can't remember which one is equivalent . I think the -700 class will eventually be dropped.

Should be interesting. And how soon can they get it done.

Boeing talking going to 60, Airbus floating a new assembly line in Alabama.

One note was as Airbus takes a month off, their production rate at 42 a month is effectively 40. Not sure if that takes into account getting to ramp up. They sure would not take a month off if built in the US. We have a better work ethic!

[RoMax]

They will indeed have another version as the NEO because of the fan size. Becuase of the fan size the P&W engine is even impossible (as their GTF can't be made much smaller without losing too much power and fuel efficiency).

About production: now both Airbus and Boeing are talking about 60/month. Airbus possibly with production in Alabama, but not decided.

For the NSA (new small aircraft, and not new short haul aircraft as I said before ) there were ideas for a twin aisle. But this was shelved already many months ago. Boeing said they would focus on the center of the market, so they would mainly focus on 145-200 market (so the current B737 market, except for the B737-600). That excluded a twin-aisle NSA. But Boeing also said they can possibly re-enter the B757 market as this is an important segment for the US for exemple (with hundreds of 757's in service). But with plans to develop the B787-10X, the B777-8X, B777-9X and the re-engined B737 in the comming decenium, I doubt they have time for something more. But still I've the idea Boeing may launch a NSA (wich possibly covers the B757 market) sooner than Airbus.
A lot will depend on their financials (another reason why a NSA was not such a good idea at this moment). The B787 project is not profitable for MANY years to come, while a NSA project would cost 10-20 billion...combine this with the long haul projects...

[earthman]

Interresting...with a tailwheel then?

Like this one?

[galaxy]

Interresting...with a tailwheel then?

Like this one?

Or like THIS ONE

[RoMax]

Southwest is finally 'happy' again with Boeing's decisions related to the B737 (they said before they couldn't wait for a new design and would look at other options). The management said that they are "anxious to sit down with Boeing" to better understand Boeing's re-engined B737.

Southwest chief Gary Kelly said: ""If Boeing can meet our needs, then I think there is a scenario where we feel like we're done and we can make a commitment and be eligible to launch this re-engined product with Boeing", possibly along with other carriers. For the information: Southwest was already launch customer for the B737-300, -500 and -700.

"I've been a proponent of the re-engining solution for years now, and I think my only disappointment is we didn't come to this re-engining decision sooner, where we could get a re-engined solution sooner," said Kelly.
Kelly added, "I'm just skeptical of the timetable to bring forward an all-new aircraft, clearly that's where Boeing ended up, they were concerned about the viability of that kind of a plan."

And maybe the most encouraging for Boeing:
Kelly also said that "despite some of the more humorous media reports", Southwest's focus "continues to be with the Boeing Company".

Southwest was also aware of "Boeing's decision before that was made public, which we appreciate", said Kelly.
Kelly's statement differs from remarks made by WestJet chief executive officer Gregg Saretsky, who said that WestJet was "interested and surprised by the announcement that Boeing made, because we thought they were headed in a different direction".
Panamanian Copa Airlines has also expressed an interest in the re-engined 737.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... oeing.html

So it's at least very encouraging that Southwest (and we may include AirTran as they are taken over by Southwest and also was a good Boeing client), WestJet, Alaska Airlines and Copa Airlines make public that they are (very) interested in the new Boeing as they are all important 737 buyers. But actually I didn't expect something else from these airlines, it's more interesting to see what other airlines will do. BTW, Ryanair announced that they are a bit dissapointed about Boeing's decision (as they want a new, slightly bigger aircraft, as they show with their coörperation with COMAC-China). But they also said they really want to talk with Boeing about this new aircraft and see if it is good enough (read: cheap enough) for them. And I mean it about that "cheap" as Ryanair itself said a lot will depend on the price of the aircraft. If Boeing wants to make a strong offer they are probably heading to another big 737 order.

[RoMax]

Reuters says Southwest and Airbus are in talks, but Gary Kelly (Southwest) denies this.

Gary Kelly:

There is no truth to that at all,
They’re a great company and great friend of Southwest and we certainly correspond and interact with those folks. But we’re talking exclusively with Boeing, and that’s only fair because that’s what we want to make work and waiting to hear from the Boeing company about what opportunities we have with this newly re-engined 737.

Something we don't see in aviation very often, a CEO wich is really friendly (at least to the public ). In another article he said he congratulated Boeing with their decision. And also that he isn't in talks with Airbus and/or Bombardier as that wouldn't be fair to them as Southwest wouldn't mean it as they want Boeing. And in the statement above he stays friendly to Airbus, but still denies that he is talking with them.

[regi]

This is what they call a partnership between 2 companies. It is a relation going further than the normal customer-seller relation.
Both sides engage in a commitment that is only ended when one partner strays off the path both companies follow.
So South West tells us that Boeing is their partner. And they would only end this partnership if Boeing develops in the same direction as SW is.
And what Airbus concerns: It is as if a married man says to another woman who fancies him : "You are a nice person, but I am occupied already"

[RoMax]

Boeing is moving closer to a vote by the board about the B737RE program later this month and nearing a decision about fan diameter. According to industry sources Boeing will go for the 66in Leap-X engine. This engine will not require any adjustments to the gear.

The new B737 brand would be harmonized with the B787 and B748 way of naming by replacing the -700/-800/-900 by -7/-8/-9. If this is true I hope they add something (a letter or something) as this will cause confusion with the B737NG aircraft as the -7/-8/-9 will be followed by the customer code resulting in exactly the same name when an airline operates the B737NG and the B737RE.

Of course Boeing declined any comment about the aircraft program as they wait for board approval for the program.

The new B737 will probably also feature external nacelle adjustments like on the B787 and B748 for noise reduction, a revised tail cone design, natural laminar flow nacelle and a hybrid laminar flow vertical stabiliser for additional drag and fuel burn reduction.

Boeing wants to achieve 10-12% fuel burn improvement without changing the B737 too much to break fleet commonality with its current models.

The specific fuel consumption (SFC) of the 66in Leap-X will be higher than with the engines for the A320neo and the bypass ratio lower. But the engine will weigh less and create less drag.

The 66in fan would deliver 13-14% SFC improvement over the current engine of the B737 according to industry sources. Integrated on the aircraft that would result in a 10-12% fuel burn improvement.

A redesign of the nose gear would have resulted in much more redesign than just the gear itself, including electrical equipment in forward section 41, fuselage,...

Boeing wants to avoid what they did with the B748 wich started as a simple re-engine version of the B744. It ended in an longer aircraft with new wings and significant redesign wich was needed and the problems wich occured because of that. The B787 problems made it even a bigger problem as engineers were needed for the B787 resulting in delays for the B748.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... ision.html