Brussels Airlines vs Senegal Airlines

[b.lufthansa]

Read on Facebook that Brussels Airlines is from now on denied flights between Dakar and other African destinations (Banjul, Freetown, Conakry). Air Sénégal will fly again from 18 janvier.

[cnc]

i don't take facebook as a reliable source but i can't say i'm surprised if its true

[RoMax]

If it's true I'm not suprised either. Senegal will always protect local airlines.

Don't know what the consequences for SN are, but I remember that SN said that they are currently very succesfull on these intra- African routes wich include Dakar to Banjul/Conakry/Freetown. Altough their yields are lower, they help to make the intra- African segments profitable.

[ihd-fc]

Dear

It is true (not from facebook, but from SN-source)

Destinations beyond Dakar are Banjul, Freetown and Conakry (not Cotonou). Flights to DKR are now operated on direct flight (most of the time with A319 with a technical stop in AGP, sometimes with A333 direct, to avoid cargo backlog). Flights to CKY, BJL and FNA are direct with A333 (stop in BJL for crew change). Some of the days the flight makes an extra stop in CKY during the flight to LFW and COO...

Not easy for SN to organise this, as the Senegalese gov only informed SN one day before limitation. A lot of diplomatic talking is going on to change situation again...

[sn26567]

That makes already 2 destinations where SN service is disturbed: after Abidjan (for political reasons), here comes Dakar (for economical reasons). Indeed, not easy for SN to organise schedules, especially since these two destinations were among the most flown in the SN African timetable.

I could understand that the Senegalese government would revoke 6th freedom rights for SN as it tries to protect its national airline, but I can hardly understand that it prevents SN from flying further from Dakar to other African destinations, even without local pax or freight traffic on board.

It seems that the SN 1xxx flights have a great future in Africa.

An A319 (OO-SSG today) to DKR? The A320 would have been most welcome now! But ideally a destination like Dakar should justify a daily A330 service on its own, without other destinations appended.

i don't take facebook as a reliable source

It depends from whom you are quoting on Facebook. I could rely on information coming from Michel Meyfroidt (at least if he has a Facebook account).

[RoMax]

Indeed Conakry, not Cotonou, wanted to be too fast again and didn't noticed it, sorry. Now corrected.

Indeed not easy for SN. They fly with an adjusted shedule to Abidjan and the destinations combined with ABJ and now the problems with Dakar... I think SN hoped for a better start of the year.

[Darjeeling]

The problem is that the last 6-8 months (after ASI demise) SN has sold tickets from DKR to CKY/BJL/FNA and cargo as well and thought they could do that beyond mid January. The last (almost) 9 years, SN didn't upload cargo and pax for local traffic. DKR was simply a head-station serving as crew base/catering base/tech base.

Now the son of Mr. Wade is behind the start-up of Senegal Airlines (+Emirates external experts) and they don't want SN to operate tag-on services from DKR even without local pax/cargo upload. Which is silly because in that case SN is not a direct competitor. But from an operational point of view this must be a hell of headache for SN...

Just two other facts:
- Asky (ET) has also lots of problems to operate from DKR for the same reasons.
- Senegal Airlines is to start up long-haul later this year with A330 to CDG, MXP and... BRU.

[tolipanebas]

Indeed it is true...
Africa is such a politically unstable continent! Things can change in the blink of an eye as we see demonstrated here.

BTW, interesting to note how the A319s used to DKR need to stop at AGP:
still remember a certain member being so sure about using A319s non-stop to AFI???

Let's hope SN gets the permission back to operate triangular flights via DKR, because what is most disturbing of all is that Senegal has completely forbidden this kind of operations with immediate effect, even if no intra-african pax are taken on board, thus halting even technical 5th freedom rights!

Also, in view of another discussion here, it's interesting to note how a EK's sponsored start-up airline is doing everything it can to block competition on its home market, whereas EK itself want's full freedoms in the EU... Another exemple of the 'level playing field' our Arab friends are truely seeking.

[Darjeeling]

Indeed it is true...
Africa is such a politically unstable continent! Things can change in the blink of an eye as we see demonstrated here.

Hence my extreme reluctance to Korongo's mid/long term prospects. Don't forget it's election's year in DRC, cards are easily and quickly redistributed... from a day to another. Follow my sight.

[tolipanebas]

Indeed it is true...
Africa is such a politically unstable continent! Things can change in the blink of an eye as we see demonstrated here.

Hence my extreme reluctance to Korongo's mid/long term prospects. Don't forget it's election's year in DRC, cards are easily and quickly redistributed... from a day to another. Follow my sight.

Unstable and highly lucrative seem to be 2 things which go together very well, especially in africa.

But what makes tons of money today, can be over tomorrow, indeed.

[BrightCedars]

Sad and yet so typical.

And here we go again with the usual chapter on SN's vulnerability due to over-exposure on the African market, which balances the books, and supports the European operation. I hope that with all the harmonization with the LH group it should be possible to make Europe break-even and profit on its own right, and I also hope that this will remind all at SN that you shouldn't put all your eggs in the same basket. It is more than time to limit the exposure, a third problem this time in East Africa could easily bring them down.

Now as far DKR itself is concerned, of all African destinations SN serves, I would think is one with the least interesting yields as I believe it is the one with the most competition. Maybe SN should cut the operation (A319LR daily would be ideal) and spread the big bird's wings elsewhere.

As for Korongo, I like the idea, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

[matey11]

I think that korongo will go on one way or another and this for following reasons.

1. Air Dc was in coop with hewa bora where now korongo will be an independent airline operating from lumbumbashi instead of kinshasa.
2. As you all may now lumbumbashi is the place where the mines ar in Congo Maybe you know the forest group well korongo and the forest group are working close togheter where the forest group has the know how in the structure of the gorvment of congo so i think they can force something and they are also employing 15000 people back there so i think korongo found a good partner in tghe forest group.

And that is why i think this airline will take off :p

kind regards

[ihd-fc]

Dear

Indeed, why not daily DKR on A319. One problem: Catering has to be arranged in FNA, BJL and CKY (in FNA it is already impossible. BMI takes catering from LHR).

Second problem: DKR does not have high yield pax, but has a lot of cargo (almost the best cargo station of SN) and no space for cargo on A319...

There will be a lack of fish these days in Italy .

[Air Key West]

I did not know about the restrictions imposed by Senegal on b.air's operations to DKR and beyond.
Well, as another member mentioned it, b.air should be able to fly with an A330 (daily) to DKR only, by filling the plane with O&D pax and pax connecting from Europe. B.Air might need to lower ticket prices to attract pax from the competition and consequently make less profit on this route, but it would mean that b.air management adopt an agressive behavior instead of the typically passive attitude it has been known about (at least, as far as my evaluation concerns).

Another possibility would be to stop flights to DKR alltogether and try and obtain from your government (is there a pilot in the cockpit ? I know ) that it denounces the bilateral agreement (I assume there is one) so that Senegal Airlines cannot fly to BRU. In the end, Senegal might be the main looser as less Belgian tourists might go to Senegal.

If b.air stopped flying to DKR with an A330, the aircraft could be used to increase frequencies on other African destinations, or even to fly to NYC (which b.air seems to want to do). So, there can always be a positive side to something terribly annoying.

Operating the route with an A319 with a technical stop in AGP is a typical b.air solution. Think of families, tourists and backpakers first, they won't mind (probably). But if I had had booked a business class ticket to DKR and had been flown with an A319 with a Y seat and Y seat pitch, I would have said : b.air never again, not a reliable airline, not even to Africa.

The other option b.air might seriously consider is to equip one of their future A320s with the configuration used by OS for flights to the Middle-East. The aircraft come with a Economy Premium class with special "nearly Business" class seats which can be an acceptable compromise between an all Y configuration and an A330 with a proper C class cabin. Of course, flying to DKR with an A320 would mean you loose cargo business.

[RoMax]

Operating the route with an A319 with a technical stop in AGP is a typical b.air solution. Think of families, tourists and backpakers first, they won't mind (probably). But if I had had booked a business class ticket to DKR and had been flown with an A319 with a Y seat and Y seat pitch, I would have said : b.air never again, not a reliable airline, not even to Africa.

The reason SN has chosen the A319 for DKR is probably just because it is the cheapest and fastest option. DKR is a route with most tourists, backpakers...anyway, there are not mucht business pax on these flights to DKR. So I don't think that's their biggest isue currently.

The other option b.air might seriously consider is to equip one of their future A320s with the configuration used by OS for flights to the Middle-East. The aircraft come with a Economy Premium class with special "nearly Business" class seats which can be an acceptable compromise between an all Y configuration and an A330 with a proper C class cabin. Of course, flying to DKR with an A320 would mean you loose cargo business.

Don't think that's a good idea. I think the only possibility of continuing DKR is with the A333. Just because DKR needs a lot of cargo and low ticket prices (wich the A320 or A319 can't offer in the way the A333 can) as most pax are tourists, backpackers... and not business people.
BTW, OS is about to terminate their premium-service on the A320. When the new light weigth seats will be installed, the A320's who currently have a real business class will just get the new seats as all other A32S.

[sn26567]

they don't want SN to operate tag-on services from DKR even without local pax/cargo upload. Which is silly because in that case SN is not a direct competitor.

The easiest retaliation is to ask our government to prohibit Senegal Airlines to combine Brussels with another European destination like CDG or LHR. It is indeed at government level that such agreements must be discussed.

But I'm almost sure that SN has already contacted our government to re-negotiate an agreement with Senegal that is acceptable for both countires and their flag airlines. And behind the scenes things are probably already moving.

P.S. Today's flight to Dakar (SN 1205) is operated by an A330 and has just departed (STA 16:00, actual 16:28).

[SN1203]

Well, as another member mentioned it, b.air should be able to fly with an A330 (daily) to DKR only, by filling the plane with O&D pax and pax connecting from Europe. B.Air might need to lower ticket prices to attract pax from the competition and consequently make less profit on this route, but it would mean that b.air management adopt an agressive behavior instead of the typically passive attitude it has been known about (at least, as far as my evaluation concerns).

Well, your evaluation is wrong. A simple look at ops between Dakar and Europe should learn you that DKR is a very competitive station already (making it difficult to lower ticket prices even more). Maybe the A330-300s in your evaluation are flying on water, but a very simple breakeven calculation (without knowing the real cost) would learn you that you'd have a hard time making this profitable. I fail to see how an airline connecting DKR on a daily basis with Brussels could be called "passive" Already had a look at the amount of tag-flights AF-KL are adding these days?

Another possibility would be to stop flights to DKR alltogether and try and obtain from your government (is there a pilot in the cockpit ? I know ) that it denounces the bilateral agreement (I assume there is one) so that Senegal Airlines cannot fly to BRU. In the end, Senegal might be the main looser as less Belgian tourists might go to Senegal.

So assuming that Dakar is a profitable station for SN, you would "just" stop flying?

Operating the route with an A319 with a technical stop in AGP is a typical b.air solution. Think of families, tourists and backpakers first, they won't mind (probably). But if I had had booked a business class ticket to DKR and had been flown with an A319 with a Y seat and Y seat pitch, I would have said : b.air never again, not a reliable airline, not even to Africa.

So you'd prefer to just cancel the flights!? Or you assume SN should have an aircraft lying around somewhere on a daily basis because there might be an operational disruption lasting several days at some point in the future? Get real, nobody is able to have this amount of spare capacity standing somewhere at the tarmac.

[Darjeeling]

No need to make scientific drawings: DKR is an important station for SN.

The way they organized their flights (tag-on to CKY/BJL/FNA) from DKR is the best way to make the most of their equipment (A333) knowing that this airplane has a big cargo capacity and lots of seats. Even AF will tag-on its CKY flights to FNA and ROB from March on !!

It's simply impossible for an airline like SN to fill a whole A333 only for DKR (same applies to FIH btw !). Even an A332 with very cheap leases costs wouldn't be profitable on a DKR alone. That's why they need to get their authorisations back ASAP in DKR.

As for all the "AFI 319LR/320" and so on assumptions it's just raw bs. End of it.

[tolipanebas]

If b.air stopped flying to DKR with an A330, the aircraft could be used to increase frequencies on other African destinations, or even to fly to NYC (which b.air seems to want to do). So, there can always be a positive side to something terribly annoying.

Do you really think you can just open NYC daily next week, or what?
Lead in times for a new long haul route are MONTHS, even developed routes to North American destinations and even just capacity increases to African destinations need time to be commercialized.

Just have a look at what is currently going on elsewhere on the network: due to all the disturbances in DKR and ABJ, several crew bases have been relocated and SN has no choice but to make additional landings at BJL and LFW for a crew change, but those "additional frequencies" are not commercialised.
(BJL +1, LFW + 2 even).

What SN needs is to get the right back to serve other destinations through DKR. It is a basic traffic right, and there is no legal basis for Senegal to revoke this, like it did.

The idea of wanting to attract intra-african pax should be abandoned however, because it is something which simply stirs too much emotions in countries which have no established democratic and free market oriented regimes. In theory, it was a nice idea, but it is also naive to think it would not cause envy and put us at risk of political retaliations which can have far reaching consequences....

It's simply not worth it, IMHO and another one of the "out of the box revenue sources and savings" which missed their goal. There is still more than enough "in the box revenue growth" possible from simply being a bit more industry standard on the product side, rather than wanting to make sure you're the cheapest charlie around, for instance!

[Polaris]

On a related note:
as from Sunday, SN will start wetleasing a plane to replace their temporary A319 ops to DKR with and to have a more sustainable way to keep serving DKR while they try to get their 5th freedom rights back and thus reinstate the triangulars. As from next week, we will thus see no less than 6 long haul bound planes at the T gates at BRU!

Maybe it's better to post this in another topic...
Anyway, what equipment will be used for this? A330, B767, B757, A321? Will these de-triangulated routes then be served by a next 'own' A330 when the time is there?