Travel Magazine: Belgian fleets become very old !

[GlidePath]

http://www.deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/b ... _vliegtuig

or

http://www.lalibre.be/economie/actualit ... illit.html

Not a surprise, nor a danger but all at the expense of the passenger's experience (outdated in-flight product, worn-out interiors, technical delays...). SN has the oldest fleet of all Star Alliance members by the way (according to FlyerTalk.)

[Airplanefooood]

Sure Ryanair has one of the youngest fleets.
With 202 Boeing 737-800NG aircraft, the average fleet age will be young for sure.
However, the OO-SSP, ex-AF aircraft, the OO-SFW , ex-Air Madrid..
As far as I know, JAF is the only Belgian Airline (commercial PAX flights) who's purchasing brandnew aircraft, right?
Perhaps, too much companies in a too small country..?

[Atlantis]

Is is very strange that they came out with this news just in this week. This smells.

SN is adding a fifth A330 + adding four new African destinations.
Thomas Cook Airlines is going to add a seventh A320 to its fleet.

Both airlines are hiring again pilots and cabin crew.

So this is positive news in a time were we can read and hear every day that people are loosing their job.
I don't understand this sort of journalism.

This really smells.

[Airplanefooood]

In a certain way, I can agree with you, Atlantis. However, two emergencies, in just two days, by the same airline, that really smells too.

[diminbru]

two emergencies??? I knew there was an emergency for an A/C coming from Hamburg

[website-info]

well if this is about age, then SN A330 is nearly 15 yrs old, the next A319 10.5yrs old and the 'new' Thomas Cook is 16yrs old hardly improving the average fleet age, all this in the month Ryanair has 9 more B738 arriving !

Is is very strange that they came out with this news just in this week. This smells.

SN is adding a fifth A330 + adding four new African destinations.
Thomas Cook Airlines is going to add a seventh A320 to its fleet.

Both airlines are hiring again pilots and cabin crew.

So this is positive news in a time were we can read and hear every day that people are loosing their job.
I don't understand this sort of journalism.

This really smells.

[sdbelgium]

two emergencies??? I knew there was an emergency for an A/C coming from Hamburg

Another one today: OO-LTM SN B733 BRU-MAD returned to BRU after fuel leak.

[cnc]

In a certain way, I can agree with you, Atlantis. However, two emergencies, in just two days, by the same airline, that really smells too.

those things can and do happen with brand new airplanes too so what is your point?

[Conti764]

well if this is about age, then SN A330 is nearly 15 yrs old, the next A319 10.5yrs old and the 'new' Thomas Cook is 16yrs old hardly improving the average fleet age, all this in the month Ryanair has 9 more B738 arriving !

FR is a false example since the high rate of purchasing equipment is part of their businessplan. Negotiate great terms with a huge order, buy those planes very cheap and sell them again before the very expensive D-check comes around.

[cathay belgium]

website-info wrote:
well if this is about age, then SN A330 is nearly 15 yrs old, the next A319 10.5yrs old and the 'new' Thomas Cook is 16yrs old hardly improving the average fleet age, all this in the month Ryanair has 9 more B738 arriving !


FR is a false example since the high rate of purchasing equipment is part of their businessplan. Negotiate great terms with a huge order, buy those planes very cheap and sell them again before the very expensive D-check comes around.

Maybe false but it works !

They flying new planes with a better fuel-burn factor and why don't sell them before the D-check if you can ?
Maybe SN could think also for doing this with the AVRO replacements ?
Buy a bunch of embraer and swop to ERJ/MRJ before Dcheck !

Okay 35 isn't 100 but who knows..

Still wondering who's gonna buy the total of 232 B737-800 of FR when their Dchecks arrives in these times...


But the article is IMHO a NON issue due to the expected replacements of the AVRO fleet AND B737's of SN,
JAF has already a great fleet except of OO_TUC but that story hopefully will end in the next year ( altough the expected 787 is almost SF and the new interior of TUC with Dcheck sounds.. ),TC A320 I don't know.
But hey that's belgium isn't it,making ourselfs look idiots in the papers again and again !

Next years with the SN replacements and maybe JAF some more new planes ( wasn't there an order for replacement of the last 737 ClassicG planes?? for this year??? ) this article can go where it belongs in the first place : DUSTBIN !

Nice weekend CX-B !

[regi]

well if this is about age, then SN A330 is nearly 15 yrs old, the next A319 10.5yrs old and the 'new' Thomas Cook is 16yrs old hardly improving the average fleet age, all this in the month Ryanair has 9 more B738 arriving !

FR is a false example since the high rate of purchasing equipment is part of their businessplan. Negotiate great terms with a huge order, buy those planes very cheap and sell them again before the very expensive D-check comes around.

But if the businessplan works with the result that they don't have to spent too much on maintenance and don't have unexpected delays , so be it. Sadly enough, it seems that the B-737 I should have been boarding from Prestwick to Charleroi had the same kind of problems of that of a 16 year old Thomas Cook airplane.
So CNC is right: it can happen with newer planes as well.

[Airplanefooood]

those things can and do happen with brand new airplanes too so what is your point?

I was expecting an answer like that. Well listen up: an African airline suffers two emergency landings in just two days, what are people going to say about that? "old fleet", "maintenance does not apply to what it sould" etc. Belgian airline suffers two emergencies in just two days: "No big deal, can happen to brandnew plane either."

[regi]

those things can and do happen with brand new airplanes too so what is your point?

I was expecting an answer like that. Well listen up: an African airline suffers two emergency landings in just two days, what are people going to say about that? "old fleet", "maintenance does not apply to what it sould" etc. Belgian airline suffers two emergencies in just two days: "No big deal, can happen to brandnew plane either."

I don't remember postings about African airlines that had 2 emergency landings in just 2 days. It doesn't reach our news. We only hear about it when it are 2 crashes. And even than...Some posts about crashes in Africa or Asia hardly got any reaction. Just have a look at the section "military aviation" and you see what I mean. Zero reactions.

[RoMax]

those things can and do happen with brand new airplanes too so what is your point?

I was expecting an answer like that. Well listen up: an African airline suffers two emergency landings in just two days, what are people going to say about that? "old fleet", "maintenance does not apply to what it sould" etc. Belgian airline suffers two emergencies in just two days: "No big deal, can happen to brandnew plane either."

Brussels Airport said that they have around 2 emergency's every 2 months. Well these two were the first of this year, it's just coïncedence that they are just after each other. Althoug Belgium has an old fleet, Belgium is high very ranked when we look at maintenance you know. You can have emergency's maybe a bit more with older planes but you can have even more emergency's with new airplanes. The most depends on the maintenence.
It's to crazzy to compare Belgium and Africa.

[cnc]

those things can and do happen with brand new airplanes too so what is your point?

I was expecting an answer like that. Well listen up: an African airline suffers two emergency landings in just two days, what are people going to say about that? "old fleet", "maintenance does not apply to what it sould" etc. Belgian airline suffers two emergencies in just two days: "No big deal, can happen to brandnew plane either."

don't feel insulted
btw you can not really compare europe with africa.
for a country with 3 big home carriers going bancrupt in the last decade and the startup of 3 new airlines i'd say its not so bad at all. look at the fleet age of the large US carriers for example

[Airplanefooood]

Guys, I know what's said in the article, I know Belgium is ranked very high when we're talking about maintenance. That I have only posted 8 messages on this forum does not mean I'm a newbie when it comes to aviation. And indeed, it does make no sense to compare Africa to Belgium, sure not! But it's really ridiculous to kind of minimize the situations that took place the last days. Sure maintenance is at a very high level here in Belgium, but the Classics need a more expensive and a more intensive maintenance, that's for sure.

MR_Boeing, "You can have emergency's maybe a bit more with older planes but you can have even more emergency's with new airplanes." we had already conclude that. It's not about the emergencies, even a brandnew car can break down at 500 feet from the dealer, I'm not that naive. It's about what the article says...

[sean1982]

There is nothing wrong with OO-TUC, all the 737's have more downtime then TUC. It's just more noticeable because the 767's are flying a VERY thight schedule. I hope the coming 787, which WILL come, will just add to the fleet rather than replacing a 767.

[Conti764]

Maybe false but it works !

It all comes down to the businessplan of every low cost airline in the world, especially of the size of Ryanair and Easyjet, but also Southwest in the US... One of the keystones in their operation is to operate to as many airports as possible as many times a day as is economically possible, requiring a lot of equipment. It's a given in economy, when you buy high quantities of a product, you'll get better rates. The same counts for a high-end product as aircraft. This is difference number one with companies like SN. They don't need the same number of equipment since with their full service product they can never have as much passengers as a LCC and not as many destinations which are not operated as many times a day.

And let's not forget Ryanair practically raped Boeing when they negotiated the current contract. It was right after 9/11 in a huge worldwide aviation downturn and Boeing was desperately in need of orders.

Another big issue is the fact that Ryanair gets huge financial incentives to nearly every airport it operates to. They don't care if their pax are dropped 10, 20 or even 50 km from the market it operates into, whereas SN flies mostly to the premium airports, with high taxes and landing fees. And to add to that disadvantage, SN's home base is one of the most expensive airports in Europe to operate to.

They flying new planes with a better fuel-burn factor and why don't sell them before the D-check if you can ?
Maybe SN could think also for doing this with the AVRO replacements ?
Buy a bunch of embraer and swop to ERJ/MRJ before Dcheck !

Okay 35 isn't 100 but who knows..

They could get a sweet deal from a manufacturer, but it will be nowhere near the same deal as Ryanair got and will get in the future (although given the present circumstances in aviation FR won't get the same incentives they got with Boeing).

Still wondering who's gonna buy the total of 232 B737-800 of FR when their Dchecks arrives in these times...

Still plenty of candidates I suppose, both LCC as full service carriers (FSC). Let's not forget the FR equipment is still modern, well maintained and have a good fuel burn. Due to the low purchasing price they are quite cheap to buy. The only negative thing is the relatively high number of cycles, but the 737 is designed to withstand to a high number of cycles.

Just have a look at all the 733's and 734's that are still flying around, or even the 732's you see in some countries...

But the article is IMHO a NON issue due to the expected replacements of the AVRO fleet AND B737's of SN,
JAF has already a great fleet except of OO_TUC but that story hopefully will end in the next year ( altough the expected 787 is almost SF and the new interior of TUC with Dcheck sounds.. ),TC A320 I don't know.
But hey that's belgium isn't it,making ourselfs look idiots in the papers again and again !

Let's not underestimate the value of TUC to JAF... Since JAP came in, the plane doesn't have such a high utilisation rate it once had and the technicals are nearly all gone. The biggest issue with the plane was the worn out and outdated interior, which will be fixed with the ongoing D-check. So when a 'D-checked' TUC with fresh interiors arrives in BRU, it will still happily fly around for JAF and if they have enough demand to warrant an extended use of the airplane they'll just keep it flying around. Let's not forget the plane is dirt cheap since I don't think there is much left to pay or (if leased) the rate is very high.