Brussels Airport: air traffic control ATC on strike

Join this forum to discuss the latest news that happened in the world of commercial aviation.

Moderator: Latest news team

User avatar
TCAS
Posts: 253
Joined: 10 Aug 2008, 09:03

Re: Brussels Airport ATC strike between 1800 and 2000 LT today ?

Post by TCAS »

airazurxtror wrote:I don't know the working conditions of the air controllers, it may well be that they are unbearable and that the strike is justified.

Going on strike is a right in Belgium, provided that the proper notice is given. Wildcat strike are illegal. They are made to inconvenience as many customers as possible which is mean - the travellers have no responsability whatsoever in Belgocontrol ...
Believe me (or not) the ATCO's have done anything in past 10 years to avoid and prevent this action.

The're 'simply' out of 'Air Safety' options.

cnc
Posts: 1311
Joined: 19 May 2009, 16:14

Re: Brussels Airport ATC strike between 1800 and 2000 LT today ?

Post by cnc »

TCAS wrote: BTW I'm a Aviator not an ATCO ;)
then why are you defending them so much if you are an outsider?
sure they have good reasons but that doesn't justify a sudden strike...
atleast they get payed a lot more then some other jobs with the same or even worse conditions.

RadarContact
Posts: 66
Joined: 14 Nov 2005, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airport ATC strike between 1800 and 2000 LT today ?

Post by RadarContact »

Just imagine: you're in a plane inbound Brussels, the weather is shit which explains why your aircraft was holding for half an hour. Finally the pilots get the clearance to commence the approach, the aircraft dives into the clouds. After a few turns and a smooth descent runway lights pop out of the fog and the plane touches down softly on the runway. It taxies to the gate, the doors open and you leave the plane with a lovely smile from your stewardess and her apology for the delay. You think about the pilots and in your mind you thank them for getting you safely on the ground.
In the meantime the approach controller, who's working his twentyfifth day in a row, is thinking about his little daughter who kept him awake all night as she had a fever. She's not the only one who's ill. Three colleagues called in ill today, no wonder with this kind of weather. As a consequence there's just not enough staff today, so breaks are shortened or no longer existing. Thirty minutes to eat should be sufficient , including the ten minutes walk to and from the restaurant. Still eight aircraft in the holding and some more are on their way. If only this fog would lift. He's feeling tired. After this one only three days of duty and then his first day off. He hopes his daughter is feeling better by then. It's just a pity that he has to work ten days in a row after that day off. He wonders why nobody seems to be outraged about this situation. He has worked a few hours for free this year to attract attention, there's been a small strike and a few threats to go on strike but nobody seems to care. The only outcome was people outraged about holidays which started with a delay and companies losing money. He just hopes nothing happens due to a tired controller. Wait a minute, he's a tired controller. He's got to keep his focus. Still three days to go...

I have no problem with this strike!

User avatar
TCAS
Posts: 253
Joined: 10 Aug 2008, 09:03

Re: Brussels Airport ATC strike between 1800 and 2000 LT today ?

Post by TCAS »

cnc wrote:atleast they get payed a lot more then some other jobs with the same or even worse conditions.
A typical ..... reaction, compromising Air Safety with jealousy.

cnc
Posts: 1311
Joined: 19 May 2009, 16:14

Re: Brussels Airport ATC strike between 1800 and 2000 LT today ?

Post by cnc »

bah stop hiding behind "Air Safety"
its not like ATCO's are the only people with responsible jobs concerning the safety of others.
like i said the situation is understandable but the sudden strike isn't

jan_olieslagers
Posts: 3059
Joined: 24 Jun 2006, 08:34
Location: Vl.Brabant
Contact:

Re: Brussels Airport ATC strike between 1800 and 2000 LT today ?

Post by jan_olieslagers »

TCAS wrote:
airazurxtror wrote:I don't know the working conditions of the air controllers, it may well be that they are unbearable and that the strike is justified.

Going on strike is a right in Belgium, provided that the proper notice is given. Wildcat strike are illegal. They are made to inconvenience as many customers as possible which is mean - the travellers have no responsability whatsoever in Belgocontrol ...
Believe me (or not) the ATCO's have done anything in past 10 years to avoid and prevent this action.

The're 'simply' out of 'Air Safety' options.
I absolutely agree with airazurxtor* ! The strike may very well be justified. Wildcat strike is illegal. This is worse than Italy, where strikes are more frequent - but they're always properly announced.

For myself it seems obvious something unexpected must have triggered this action (and it may seem a futile detail) but I can well imagine that no one "in the know" will ever publish what actually happened.

*a nice feeling, this harmony between an ANR supporter and one for LGG...

BATAVIA
Posts: 33
Joined: 24 Apr 2007, 19:54

Re: Brussels Airport ATC strike between 1800 and 2000 LT today ?

Post by BATAVIA »

Dear,

I have respect for all parties concerned, and in case of heavy work load, understaffed personal and putting Air Safety in danger, I completly agree with he anger of the concerned ATC staff.
Never ever Air Safety can be put in jeopardy, whatever it takes.

On the other hand, the concerned party (ATC) can not put herself above our compromising law, meaning that unexpected actions like yesterday could be approved.
Discussions and talks with the government and other parties involved must result in solutions.

I feel sorry for the ATC crew, and i am 100% aware of their workload/responsabilities.Imagine a mistake occurs, (because of heavy workload) and two planes collide in mid air....the concerned AIr Traffic Controller his life will change for ever....ecven worse,knowing that those highly qualified guys requested extra staff.
WHO WILL STEP UP THAN???? Definatly not the concerned minister...We are in Belgium and he will put the blame on others, and even worse, maybe on the ATController.

But to keep my opinion short, the action from yesterday is not accepted in 2009, and yes, I am sure foreign investors notice this too, and will be scared to invest in Belgium.
Silly example but Renault closed, VW Vorst closed (Audi Brussels now), Volvo was on probs, Opel Antwerp is scaring, DHL left Belgium, etc...(I know this has few to do with the ATC strike but see it in a global picture re Belgium)

We could compete with low cost countries like China, India if all of us stick together,but our image is hurt.... and that will not change if those wild actions still occur.

Sad to hear but i think it's the government who should act, and not only listen, and the ATC staff should not take advantage of this situation by striking like yesterday.
Our Belgian COMPROMISE STRATEGY will kill us one day

User avatar
tolipanebas
Posts: 2442
Joined: 12 May 2004, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airport ATC strike between 1800 and 2000 LT today ?

Post by tolipanebas »

BATAVIA wrote:Our Belgian COMPROMISE STRATEGY will kill us one day
The alternative is what?
A regime like in the PRC, where strikes are simply and outright forbidden, conditions of employment are unilaterally imposed and workers are tossed around like living robots? :x
If that were ever to be introduced, I bet you'd see overal conditions of employment in Belgium spiral down faster than a plane which has just lost a wing! Think about what that would do to the net income of a Belgian family and their buying power...
Somehow I don't think our economy would be better off.
In fact, I am pretty sure it would make the largest economic recession since WWII (-5%) which we are living today look like just a small dip!

It's really funny to see how so many people always fall over eachother to say how well they understand the concerns of whoever goes on strike, but always seem to think a strike is not an option and negociations should be held first, as if the unions have 'strike' as first recall item on their checklist for social discussions!

If you strike, you loose wage, so nobody is going to go on strike unless he or she feels the absolute need for it and sees talks (if any) are leading nowhere, something which is no surprise really, since it seems like today you have predominantly 2 types of employers:
-) those who simply say 'fuck off' to any demand
-) those who'd like to do it but don't dare and thus use talks as a way to stall on any decision

In an environment where the cost aspect has become the single most important determining factor to base managerial decisions on, the most efficient way for unions to get concessions from the employers, is to positively influence the cost aspect of their demands and whenever their demands have an inherently negative cost aspect attached to them, make sure that it is cheaper to accept the demand, than it is to reject it. A strike is a very efficient method to achieve this goal and is merely an application of a logic which subscribes in full to the lowest possible cost business model our employers have all adopted.
It is indeed sad that these days, the only way one can get some flexibility from the employers is by making them loose even more money through going on strike, but keep in mind that the lack of consideration for customers and stakeholders alike which a strike reveils does not come from the employees, but from the bean-counting employers. It's just that they want to keep in behind closed doors....
Last edited by tolipanebas on 26 Sep 2009, 21:12, edited 2 times in total.

jan_olieslagers
Posts: 3059
Joined: 24 Jun 2006, 08:34
Location: Vl.Brabant
Contact:

Re: Brussels Airport ATC strike between 1800 and 2000 LT today ?

Post by jan_olieslagers »

BATAVIA wrote:Our Belgian COMPROMISE STRATEGY will kill us one day
Perhaps you are right, perhaps not. I don't want to argue: let us stay out of politics and remain with this forum's subject: aviation. The sad demise of Belgian car assembly industry has no relevance here.

@tolipanebas: in all reactions I found not a single voice against the strike - only raised eyebrows about a strike WITHOUT THE LEGAL PRIOR NOTICE

User avatar
tolipanebas
Posts: 2442
Joined: 12 May 2004, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airport ATC strike between 1800 and 2000 LT today ?

Post by tolipanebas »

jan_olieslagers wrote:@tolipanebas: in all reactions I found not a single voice against the strike - only raised eyebrows about a strike WITHOUT THE LEGAL PRIOR NOTICE
There is no legal requirement to announce a strike prior to it happening....

A strike is legal when it gets the support of an official union.

Period.

sean1982
Posts: 3260
Joined: 18 Mar 2003, 00:00
Contact:

Re: Brussels Airport ATC strike between 1800 and 2000 LT today ?

Post by sean1982 »

Yes, the unions. Very competent people in Belgium. Exactly how many businesses did they save already ??

This text is from the Belgian lawbook:
Volgens de Belgische wet zijn wilde en spontane stakingen nog steeds juridisch fout. Alleen
de regelmatige stakingen worden juridisch geaccepteerd.
Seems very clear. There was no legal context for this strike, I hope they all get a heavy fine!!

User avatar
tolipanebas
Posts: 2442
Joined: 12 May 2004, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airport ATC strike between 1800 and 2000 LT today ?

Post by tolipanebas »

sean1982 wrote:Yes, the unions. Very competent people in Belgium. Exactly how many businesses did they save already ??

This text is from the Belgian lawbook:
Volgens de Belgische wet zijn wilde en spontane stakingen nog steeds juridisch fout. Alleen
de regelmatige stakingen worden juridisch geaccepteerd.
Seems very clear. There was no legal context for this strike, I hope they all get a heavy fine!!
Indeed, very clear... :roll:

care to quote any further?

"een regelmatige staking is een staking die de steun geniet van ten minste één erkende vakbond."

This is NOT the same as having to announce a strike beforehand!

A union can also recognise a strike AFTER it has happened, in which case the strike is still 100% legal and no sactions can be taken against anybody on strike...

Know your social laws... or shut up please... :evil:

SN1203
Posts: 129
Joined: 20 Sep 2007, 20:11

Re: Brussels Airport ATC strike between 1800 and 2000 LT today ?

Post by SN1203 »

tolipanebas wrote:the most efficient way for unions to get concessions from the employers, is to positively influence the cost aspect of their demands and whenever their demands have an inherently negative cost aspect attached to them, make sure that it is cheaper to accept the demand, than it is to reject it.
You got to be kidding me, right!?

What if your "demands" are totally unrealistic? What if your co-workers don't agree with your demands? You realize you take the whole company into hostage? You're just abusing your power and you know it.

fly_ebos
Posts: 1
Joined: 27 Sep 2009, 16:39

Re: Brussels Airport ATC strike between 1800 and 2000 LT today ?

Post by fly_ebos »

As a fellow ATCO, they have my support for going on strike.
I do not support it being a wild strike, a 24 hours notice should be the minimum given!

Furthermore, should there not be at least 1 or 2 atco's left in the ops room, just in case there is an emergency with trafffic in the upper airspace?

The given reason for striking is understaffing, but somehow Mr. TinTin wants to raise the division level to FL315. How is that gonna work??

sean1982
Posts: 3260
Joined: 18 Mar 2003, 00:00
Contact:

Re: Brussels Airport ATC strike between 1800 and 2000 LT today ?

Post by sean1982 »

tolipanebas,

The definition of "spontane staking" is a strike supported by a union but without prior notice
The definition of "wilde staking" is a strike without prior notice without union support.

Know your social laws .... or shut up please!! thank you :evil:

User avatar
tolipanebas
Posts: 2442
Joined: 12 May 2004, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airport ATC strike between 1800 and 2000 LT today ?

Post by tolipanebas »

sean1982 wrote:tolipanebas,

The definition of "spontane staking" is a strike supported by a union but without prior notice
The definition of "wilde staking" is a strike without prior notice without union support.
Indeed, and contrary to what you're claiming, the law does not forbid 'spontane stakingen' like the one we're discussing here and you are so vehemently against, so your ridiculous claim
sean1982 wrote:There was no legal context for this strike
was factually wrong indeed.

Employers are always quick to label any spontaneous strike (spontane staking) as wildcat strike (wilde staking) and whereas spontaneous strikes always start off as wildcat strikes, it doesn't mean any spontaneous strike is automatically illegal like you spread here...; the 'EN' in your Dutch legal text is very imporant, you know?

A spontaneous strike recognised by a union (even retroactively) ALWAYS gives immunity to all participants and automatically makes it a legal union action which is allowed under Belgian law.

Thank you for allowing me to make this very important point! :-)
Last edited by tolipanebas on 27 Sep 2009, 18:40, edited 1 time in total.

jan_olieslagers
Posts: 3059
Joined: 24 Jun 2006, 08:34
Location: Vl.Brabant
Contact:

Re: Brussels Airport ATC strike between 1800 and 2000 LT today ?

Post by jan_olieslagers »

Legal or no, it was NOT_DONE in my opinion. The prior notice might not be a legal requirement, but it is part of good manners. Again, it is not the strike as such that is debated, only the lack of notice.

We all know the frustrations at Belgocontrol, they have been voiced here several times, but the ATCO's always showed sense and good manners. This time something must have gone wrong very suddenly and I keep on wondering what.

And would someone kindly keep us posted of results? Did the strike at least partially meet at least some of its goals?

The legal aspects are IMO out of scope on this forum - I therefore withdraw my every use of the word "illegal" in this thread.

sean1982
Posts: 3260
Joined: 18 Mar 2003, 00:00
Contact:

Re: Brussels Airport ATC strike between 1800 and 2000 LT today ?

Post by sean1982 »

tolipanebas,

"spontane staking" is also illegal unless the "CAO" specifically states that it is permitted, otherwise there are no legal grounds for it!

User avatar
tolipanebas
Posts: 2442
Joined: 12 May 2004, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airport ATC strike between 1800 and 2000 LT today ?

Post by tolipanebas »

sean1982 wrote:tolipanebas,

"spontane staking" is also illegal unless the "CAO" specifically states that it is permitted, otherwise there are no legal grounds for it!
Repeating doesn't make a wrong a right, you know?

:roll:

Since you seem such a rightwing nutcase, I suppose you accept VOKA as a reliable source?

http://www.voka.be/startpagina/nieuws/P ... recht.aspx

This is what they write about spontane stakingen:

In België is het toegestaan om te staken zonder dat op voorhand kenbaar te maken. Specifiek voor België geldt dat er geen beperkingen zijn voor de timing van stakingen en kunnen werknemers stakingen inzetten zonder daarvan op voorhand te verwittigen (spontane stakingen). In sommige gevallen zijn vakbonden wel onderworpen aan een clausule van sociale vrede, die de stakingsrechten beperkt. Het is wel belangrijk om op te merken dat die clausule niet geldt voor individuele werknemers, wat ze enigszins irrelevant maakt.

and about the fines for the individuals who joined in:

Door het recht op staken kunnen Belgische werkgevers geen schadeclaims indienen bij een spontane staking. Een vakbond die een staking organiseert in ons land is niet verantwoordelijk voor de veroorzaakte schade.

sean1982
Posts: 3260
Joined: 18 Mar 2003, 00:00
Contact:

Re: Brussels Airport ATC strike between 1800 and 2000 LT today ?

Post by sean1982 »

tolipanebas,

There is a reason why you're nickname is not "sabenapilot" anymore you know.

Your precious unions played a beautiful game in that story, especially BeCA. The fact that the chairman apologised for the quote "ferocious pilot strikes" un-quote that divided the flying personnel and ground personnel says enough in my opinion. To assume that a strike is right because a union says so, is naïve to say the least.


What my personal political views are in this story are none of you business, and to call me a nutcase is an insult. I don't think that I personally attacked you in any of my posts. I suppose some people never learned any manners!

Anyway, of to bed now. Have to fly tomorrow and by the looks of it, will probably get stranded somewhere, AGAIN!!

Post Reply