Belgian ATC staff considering industrial action

[regi]

to NCB and Radarcontact:
I am afraid that both of you are correct:
NCB that he followed his gut feeling after visiting the control room and see a job environment which he didn't like. I have done once the mistake to take a job ( 1 mile from the airport ) against my gut feeling. After 11 months I left and suddenly all my problems were gone: I earned 20% more, got a company car, got less stress, got my holidays , got even real friends at work- imagine that ! - , had no more sleeping problems, just give it a name. But I don't say that working as an ATCO would automatically be a bad job for everybody. Other people fit in nicely.
By the way, your remark about seeing no cheap cars on the parking lot is not right. I know somebody who worked there 2 years and did not get further than a very old Toyota Carina. ( he left the place because of the reasons that your gut feeling during your visit were even much worse. He couldn't stand it anymore )

To Radarcontact:
keep up the good work: defend your job, make a point and keep on proving that it is a good working place where there is nothing special negative going on. Meaning: no reason to go on strike. Right?

To conclude:
I am afraid that it is again a good example about working people who are unhappy at their working place. More pay will not do it. Less work neither because they do already so little hours. I have somewhere the feeling it is personally related , and should be solved at manager level.
A time-out period would be one solution. Despite the job is very specific, it could be a good idea to dispatch some people to other airport jobs temporarely ( security, analysis, human resources, even technical maintenance ( good to have the knowledge if something goes wrong ) ...) untill they decide that their place as atco wasn't that bad either.

[matsATC]

I am afraid that it is again a good example about working people who are unhappy at their working place. More pay will not do it. Less work neither because they do already so little hours. I have somewhere the feeling it is personally related , and should be solved at manager level.
A time-out period would be one solution. Despite the job is very specific, it could be a good idea to dispatch some people to other airport jobs temporarely ( security, analysis, human resources, even technical maintenance ( good to have the knowledge if something goes wrong ) ...) untill they decide that their place as atco wasn't that bad either.

Ehm... I think you're still missing the point: most of us are happy to work as a controller, and know that if they would go and work elsewhere, they would have to work more hours (for less, or more money, that depends). The problem is that we are not sure our jobs will be still there in a few years...

[NCB]

Ehm... I think you're still missing the point: most of us are happy to work as a controller, and know that if they would go and work elsewhere, they would have to work more hours (for less, or more money, that depends). The problem is that we are not sure our jobs will be still there in a few years...

Mmm there seems to be confusion around the reason why atco's are considering industrial action.
I think that, reading the previous reactions, the main reason at this point is understaffing and a distant second is fear for the European sky. Also, as said previously, a strike would not change anything in the European sky discussions.

Considering that, Regi does have a point, and in that case the atco's too.

We'll see how it unfolds, and if atco's do go on strike, you can count on me to operate the Ground or the Tower (by the way, only for a day ). Any other volunteers?

[Nevihta]

We'll see how it unfolds, and if atco's do go on strike, you can count on me to operate the Ground or the Tower (by the way, only for a day ). Any other volunteers?

Well, not volunteer to fly that day...

By the way, it's not because you feel it's a boring job that noone likes it...
I feel like being pilot can be very boring, when visiting cockpit I could only see guys eating, and reading papers, even sleeping.
I know that's only a part of the job, so my mind about being a pilot doesn't limit to a small experience.

[TCAS]

I feel like being pilot can be very boring, when visiting cockpit I could only see guys eating, and reading papers, even sleeping.

Some solutions to make your (next) flight a little more exciting

1. Make race car noises while you are taxiing
2. Blow your nose and show everybody the contents of your Kleenex.
3. Grimace painfully while smacking your forehead and yell: "Shut up, damn it, all of you just shut UP!"
4. Whistle the first seven notes of "It's a small world afterall" incessantly.
5. Sell Girl Scout cookies
6. If anyone brushes against you, recoil and holler "Bad touch! Bad touch!"
7. Shave.
8. Crack open your flightcase and, while peering inside ask;" Got enough air in there?"
9. Offer name tags to every flight crew member. wear yours upside down.
10. Stare emotionless at the circuit breaker panel and not say anything.
11. When parked at the gate pull and yank at the door and act embarrassed when it opens to the outside.
12. Lean over to the FO and whisper; "Noogie patrol coming!"
13. Greet everyone on the flightdeck and ask them to call you Admiral.
14. One word: "Flatulence"!
15. At FL 350 tell them you're getting dizzy and ask if they can open a window.
16. While buckled up, do Thai Chi exercises.
17. Stare and grin at the flight attendants for awhile and then say: "I've got new socks on."
18. While taxiing moan "Oh no, not now, damn motion sickness"
19. Give religious tracts to each crewmember.
20. Meow occasionally.
21. Bet the captain you can fit a quarter in your nose.
22. Frown and mutter: "gotta go ,gotta go!", then sigh and say "oops".
23. Show passengers a wound and ask if it looks infected.
24. Sing "Mary had a little lamb" while pushing buttons on the overhead panel.
25. Holler: "Touchdown" when landing.
26. Walk on with a cooler that says "Human Body Parts" on the side.
27. Stare at the FE and say: "You're one of them".
28. Burp and say: "mmm, tasty!"
29. Stare at your thumb and say: "I think it's getting larger."
30. Ask the crew if you can push some buttons for them.
31. Wear a hand puppet and talk to other people "through" it.
32. Start a sing-along.
33. When the cockpit is silent ask: "Is that the TCAS going off?".
34. Practice your harmonica.
35. Shadow box in the jet way.
36. Say: "Ding" when reaching each assigned flight level.
37. Wear X ray specs and leer suggestive at the flight attendants.
38. Say: " I wonder what this will do" and pull the cabin oxygen emergency switch.
39. Listen to the walls with a stethoscope.
40. Make explosion sounds when somebody pushes a button.
41. Carry a blanket and clutch it protectively.
42. Chew on a bunch of peanuts and ask: " Wanna see wha in my mouf?"
43. Blow spit bubbles
44. Pull your gum out of your mouth in long strings
45. Announce with a demonic voice and rolling eyes: "I must find a more suitable host body".
Source

Somethimes it isn't boring at all WATCH THIS (Video)

[Nevihta]

Hello TCAS
don't forget the other part of my sentence

[ChRt]

Time to mingle myself in this forum... As the dutch one is closed...

First of all: TCAS, I like you, fantastic sense of humour with your last post, one to remember )

It's a shame: many people on this forum think they know everything about my ATCO job, and about the organisation of Belgian aviation, unfortunatelly, the fact you refuse to symphatise with our grieves alone prooves you know nothing about it. Just an example:

"TCAS, I don't understand. In my opinion, the Belgian CAA is doing a great job overall. It may not be the case for the atco's but Belgocontrol is very profitable so I don't see why they should eliminate a dozen atco's and endanger safety?"

Ahhuemmm... Belgocontrol is NOT profitable, and furthermore my employer is NOT the Belgian CAA.

You know what's funny? People claim I have huge wages, but somehow I don't seem to find them on my banking account. Well, easily said, we make somewhere between 30% and 270% less than ALL our collegues abroad, yet rest assured that with our tiny airspace which - furthermore - is the most difficult/complicated in Europe (source: Eurocontrol) we often have the stress amount of a Heatrow controller! However, I don't want to continue on the wages, as they do not make part of the claims we make towards the politicians. For those who think we earn that much, please subscribe yourself for the next FEAST exams, I desperatelly need new collegues so I finally can take ALL my annual leave within, well, 5 or 6 years from now when you could be released at the earliest as my collegue radar controller. Easy to become an ATCO, no?

Excellent duty rosters? All who claim that please inform me by private mail of your BELGOCONTROL source. I think some of you might actually be one of our managers. I did the count and on average, between 1 January 2008 and 30 November 2008 I worked 28,2 days a month. I had 11 days of annual leave. So don't b**lsh*t me about only working 16-18 days a month. I have NOT ONE COLLEGUE who worked that little this year.

The guy who claimed to have seen our parking lot, I can tell you he has never been on our premisses. For shure, I have about a dozen of collegues I know who drive a luxury car type BMW 5 or 7, Mercedes E... For the rest, we - including myself - drive regular family cars (Ford, Toyota, ...). Anyone who has 300 collegues within any profession will easily have a dozen of collegues who drive cars not representing their actual income. I bought myself a new car, some time ago, and it costed 18760 euro. Just like most people, I had to finance it. Pretty strange, huh, for an ATCO since about ten - eleven years, who makes tons of money?

The main question: are we all frustrated as in fact we want to be pilots? I apologise, but people making such claims should shut their yap on this kind of forum. Yes, about 5 procent of my collegues, I estimate, rahter want to be a pilot. Surely - me including - the vast majority of ATCO's don't want to be a pilot at all. Pilot and ATCO are two completely different jobs. I'm sorry, they are NOT interchangeable. You really have to love puzzling against time before even considering becoming an ATCO. Oh, yes, you only have one chance to make a good puzzle. You solve the puzzle incorrectly? Game over! (I do not mean any disrespect for the job of a pilot.)

All people who claim to know everything but clearly know nothing: during ten years we have tried every alternative besides striking. During ten years we got nowhere. The only reason why we did not go on strike yet, is because we have a huge power with, yes, 350 atco's and not 150 atco's like NCB who thinks-to-know-everything claimed. We did not strike out of respect for the holidays of people, out of respect for the fragile economy. Today, I learned on Television (VTM Nieuws 19h00) the point of view of the airliners. They think it's about time we all loose our jobs and be replaced by other ATCO's in other centres. I believe it was TCAS (but might me mistaking and to lazy to look it up...) who once said in the dutch forum that airliners would symphatise with us if they know our problems? I replied anyway I do not believe that, and now we have the answer to that ("It's a pity for the 1000 employees of Belgocontrol, but it has to disappear").
Clearly we do not have the sympathy of the travelers, as those who do believe our remarks aren't interested meaning that we should change jobs (most ... stupid ... remark ... ever ... made - I'm sorry, making this claim does not deliver proof of any sign of intelligence), but clearly there are others who simply don't believe us, being informed by a drinking buddy claiming to work with Eurocontrol or something. And then you have a guy who claims to have friends/ATCO's within about all centres in Europe. I'm sorry, based on what you say, I can clearly state you're a lier! I DO know a lot of people in foreign centres. They all have a specific term to describe Belgian controllers and their working circumstances. I dare you: proove you know foreign ATCO's and post this term in a reply. Then I believe you, otherwise, please quit posting.

So, something within me - and I think with a lot of collegues of mine - finally broke tonight. If we don't have any sympathy of the airliners or the passengers, if both parties rather get rid of us in stead of supporting us so we REALLY could avoid a strike, why would we have to hold back then? I will defend my job, that of my collegues and of my 700 non-ATCO collegues! And I am prepared to do this 'till the bitter end.

Belgian controllers know we are facing court if we strike, and know we will have to go for a variety of claims made by both airliners and passangers. We are not afraid, as we can proove that we have tried EVERY SINGLE alternative available during ten years, so we can proove we did not abuse our legal right to strike. All suggestions made like "Go to the authorities, do this, do that...", don't bother making them because we all did that already! Don't forget, we are not a bunch of amateurs, we have sufficient social experience present to know all options. After reading this forum however, I suddenly feel not so guilty anymore to go on a strike. A message for all of you who believe I have to work 28 days, sometimes straight, a month to accomodate your travel wishes (or otherwise go work somewhere else), who think I have to find it normal that there is no social dialogue and that I just have to accept we do not even have the basic rights guaranteed to all employees by the Belgian law, such as sufficient time off, sufficient time between consecutive shifts... (as we may not enforce them through strike due to our enormous social power): I AM NOT YOUR B*TCH!

I can continue this already way too long post to touch another 100 items, but it's time for me now to switch off the porn site on my other IE-page, wrap my arrogance warmly to protect it against the cold weather outside, crawl to my Bentley Convertible parked on my 50 meters drivelane and hit the town to join my collegue in the gentlemans club where we can smoke the finest Cuban cigars and laugh with all those poor travellers who hardly make any money compared to us and whose holidays might be ruined shortly.

Just a closer: I also will have a bored face when you would visit my OPS-room, NCB, not because of my job, but because of the fact that in the end I am not always happy with the fact that thousends of visitors come to take pictures of me doing my job each year. I'm supposed to concentrate myself and - newsflash - every single visitor distracts me. I even consider this to be an infringment of my privacy. Some of my collegues might even resort to more drastic methods of protest, like openly surfing porn sites. Never considered that simply your presence might have been the reason why?

[NCB]

Indeed dear chrt, you seem to have a problem.
I don't know whether you are a real atco but you certainly do disappoint me.

Do you remember when you almost went on strike in February 2008?
I do.

Press release of Belgocontrol: http://www.belgocontrol.be/belgoweb/pub ... fr08-4.pdf

Belgocontrol : Accord entre les partenaires sociaux.
Suspension des actions collectives aux aéroports de Liège, Charleroi, Ostende et Anvers
Suite au dépôt d’un préavis de grève par le syndicat CGSP annonçant des actions collectives aux aéroports de Liège, Charleroi, Ostende et Anvers durant le week-end du 9 au 10 février 2008, les partenaires sociaux sont parvenus à un accord dans le cadre de la procédure de conciliation en vertu du statut Syndical de Belgocontrol.
Traduit sous la forme d’un Protocole, cet accord prévoit les dispositions en matière d’application du nouveau système de licence de contrôleur aérien pour les agents occupés dans les aéroports régionaux.
La mise en oeuvre ultérieure de ce Protocole a été confiée à un groupe de travail en vue de l’obtention d’un Accord Collectif pour la réunion de la Commission paritaire du 21 février 2008.
Eu égard à l’accord obtenu entre les partenaires sociaux, le syndicat CGSP s’est engagé à suspendre les actions collectives prévues.

It's up to you, you either like it or leave.
You won't get any support from anyone and you seem to know what's likely to happen.

And then you have a guy who claims to have friends/ATCO's within about all centres in Europe.

Well not everywhere, Euro, Belgo, France, FAA, actually also one in Italy but he's into the atco training department.

The only reason why we did not go on strike yet, is because we have a huge power with, yes, 350 atco's and not 150 atco's like NCB who thinks-to-know-everything claimed.

If I understand well the ones that are considering industrial action are airport atco's not Enr atco's, and they are about 150.

The guy who claimed to have seen our parking lot, I can tell you he has never been on our premisses. For shure, I have about a dozen of collegues I know who drive a luxury car type BMW 5 or 7, Mercedes E... For the rest, we - including myself - drive regular family cars (Ford, Toyota, ...). Anyone who has 300 collegues within any profession will easily have a dozen of collegues who drive cars not representing their actual income. I bought myself a new car, some time ago, and it costed 18760 euro. Just like most people, I had to finance it. Pretty strange, huh, for an ATCO since about ten - eleven years, who makes tons of money?

Now look what I found here:
Salary
From the first day of your training period you are entitled to a salary, amounting to some
€ 1.600 euros gross/month.
After you succeed in the training stage and the operational traineeship your salary will be increased to some 2.900 euros gross/month (after about a year).
When you succeed in obtaining the title of ADR, ACS or APS your salary will be situated between € 5.800 and € 6.200 gross/month depending on the operational position that you hold.

http://www.belgocontrol.be/belgoweb/pub ... aq_atc.pdf

If you can't save on that salary, it's a personal issue.

I have been on the parking lot several times and at different airports, don't worry, but I haven't seen a single 1995 model Ford Fiesta.
See, for you a regular car is a new 18760 euro car.
Do you think that the guy working outside and very hard throwing luggage for Aviapartner or Flightcare living on basic salary and paying rent can afford to buy a new car once in his life even if on credit? But I don't here him whining about his job because they're "understaffed".

I suggest you look at the misery around you and get a life.


PS.By the way, being on a roster for more than 10 straight days is not legal. You have the right to refuse it.
You also have the right to refuse working more than full time.
If you accept it beforehand and actually execute it, it's your own liability.
If anything happens, you and your employer will both be liable for all consequences.

And concerning that, I have had my deal of close calls in controlled Belgian airspace.
To add another layer, Brussels Information as an example has one of the worst "center" services I've experienced in developed countries. And it's not only because of the equipment but a wrong mentality.
I praise FAA atco's for doing twice the job for half the money using 40 years old equipment and caring foremost of the safety of our lives rather than their own frustrations.

Bottom line: no responsible atco, pilot, luggage handler, trucker or employee would work 28 days a month.

[TCAS]

Bottom line: no responsible atco, pilot, luggage handler, trucker or employee would work 28 days a month.

Next time you call Clearance Delivery, I think the ‘CDEL’ ATCO will say "Don't call me, I call You"

[jan_olieslagers]

Do you think that the guy working outside and very hard throwing luggage for Aviapartner or Flightcare living on basic salary and paying rent can afford to buy a new car once in his life even if on credit? But I don't here him whining about his job because they're "understaffed".

I've nothing to say about their whining (or lack thereof), but I do know they have repeatedly been on strike recently. And then again, this is not a fair comparison: the levels of training and responsability are far different.

For myself I do keep sympathising with our ATC staff, but the controversy over the rosters is hard to judge from outside. Wouldn't it be possible to publish one (unnamed) person's roster for one (unnamed) month, somewhere in 2008?

[TCAS]

For myself I do keep sympathising with our ATC staff

Me too

I don't know why NCB is promoting an ‘overseas’ Flight Training Organisation (FTO) in Timbuktu, but I ‘personally’ think he's a ‘low time’ Rookie ‘Ain't Seen Nothing Yet’

[jan_olieslagers]

If we don't have any sympathy of the airliners or the passengers, if both parties rather get rid of us in stead of supporting us so we REALLY could avoid a strike, why would we have to hold back then? I will defend my job, that of my collegues and of my 700 non-ATCO collegues! And I am prepared to do this 'till the bitter end.

Don't feel so negative: the replies to the poll are rather supporting. Though of course I realise there's far too little respondents to make it representative.

[ATCO]

Hi,

I've read this subject, and I was astonished.
Especially about some reactions (mainly of non-atco's) about Belgo, the way forward and the working methods...
Lets keep my answer rather short...
1. there are several levels of professions, don't compare them...
ATCO's are no PILOTS, PILOTS are no ATCO's, and certainly PILOTS or ATCOs are no bagadge handlers.
Nor ATCOs or PILOTS are standing/working in freezing temperatures during their whole shift.
2. The job of an ATCO is something you are trained for ... at this moment that takes about 7 years (to become a fully qualified ENR or APP ATCO)
3. A roster of more than 10 days is not legal? Well check your sources, 13 days in a row is legal. then one day off and then again 10 to 13 days... (Checked and done last several months)
4. Oh, you had your deal of close calls ... Please PM me, with some examples...
5. FIS in Brussels FIR, What is the problem? If you like to fly "controlled" just file a FPL and ask a joining clearance.
6. Hey I also got several sources at different ANSP's ... so I can say that I know the way of working in those centers/towers?
7. Industrial action at Belgo? Well let me tell you one thing... Who said you that only tower controllers are considering this and ENR wouldn't? Well I can assure you, at the moment TOWER ENR and APP are all looking in the same direction (please check your sources - again-)
8. And just to be sure, I may be not an ATCO "pro Industrial Actions" but I can assure you that several people during the last several years have tried to work out a solution for everything... (everything but praying to god...maybe that'll do the trick !!!) But enough is enough...
9.
No I'll leave you here, I am falling asleep in my especially designed working chair witch is in Bed-sleeping mode... ---Yawn---
See you all in the parking lot,when I drive off in my FERRARI (yes I know, I like italian cars, my other one is a FIAT 500 lol!)
Happy Christmas and a Merry New Year

Bey
ATCO

[TCAS]

when I drive off in my FERRARI (yes I know, I like italian cars, my other one is a FIAT 500 lol!)

Cheapo

My car is a Piaggio P180 Avanti II and my other car is a Maserati Quattroporte S

[ATCO]

I know , but my ecureuil is in maintenance !

[NCB]

4. Oh, you had your deal of close calls ... Please PM me, with some examples...

No pm's, openly. 1 at CRL, 2 with BRU info, all flying GA.
Once with evasive action on downwind at CRL, aircraft came out of nowhere and got the "report in sight" call like 30 seconds too late. Another time, an FR B738 was threatening the tower with a report because its TCAS was going off/ there was not enough separation with a chopper.

With BRU info, twice, I took evasive action.
Then checked with info and got an indifferent "squawk ident", instead of "sorry".

Never reported any of them and I obviously avoid flying VFR in Belgium.
France, Germany or Holland are not even comparable.

A roster of more than 10 days is not legal? Well check your sources, 13 days in a row is legal. then one day off and then again 10 to 13 days... (Checked and done last several months)

Not in the common labour laws. If you got special agreements and you signed them, you're on your own.

Industrial action at Belgo? Well let me tell you one thing... Who said you that only tower controllers are considering this and ENR wouldn't? Well I can assure you, at the moment TOWER ENR and APP are looking in the same direction (please check your sources - again-)

I only got one atco source at Belgo and I haven't seen him since quite some time. I don't have any other source than the media on this one but understaffing is commonly an airport control issue rather than enr control. If the common sky issue is the centre of potential actions, and therefore an enr control issue, as said before, it wouldn't justify a strike.

I'm not particularily against atco's on this one but I guess I'm giving you a very good idea of the point of view of the general public. There will be no support from anyone because no one cares, quite to the opposite, if the industrial action includes radar people, they will have to fight opposition from many people who care about the common sky, starting from the airlines and even from neighboring control centres.

Also, I suggest some people who pretend to be atco's and come up with arrogant reactions provide information rather than tier 3 "jokes":

See you all in the parking lot,when I drive off in my FERRARI MARABELLO (yes I know, I like italian cars, my other one is a FIAT 500 lol!)

Do you think that many people approve this kind of "jokes"? It's very sad.
A Fiat 500 2007 model is a 15000 euro investment. In comparison my father was a manual worker and never owned a new car of his life let alone more than 2000 euro per month. He's retired and old now and owns a 16 year old vehicle.

[TCAS]

Do you think that many people approve this kind of "jokes"?

I do

“Remember the days when sex was safe and flying dangerous”

and

“There are old pilots and there are bold pilots but there are no old, bold pilots”

[jan_olieslagers]

Do you think that many people approve this kind of "jokes"? It's very sad.

I'm afraid you opened the door to that kind of humour yourself. Not that I like it very much either, but you are hardly in a position to complain.

A Fiat 500 2007 model is a 15000 euro investment. In comparison my father was a manual worker and never owned a new car of his life let alone more than 2000 euro per month. He's retired and old now and owns a 16 year old vehicle.

This is totally irrelevant. The times have been changing, remember? My son rode his 750 cc motorbike before he had his first job; in my student's days I didn't even dream of that. And no, my son's parents weren't rich, not by a long way!

[ATCO]

Oeps, you had an airmiss when in contact with brussels FIS?
And you had to perform evasive action?
Is this true?
Please let me know...

Look my fiat 500 is an old one with lots of corrosion, and I am not driving a ferrari ok? (It's a maserati )

Leave the parents out of the story or I'll tell you a sad story...


And please read the press release of the staff of belgocontrol... then you know it isn't only about SES

[euroflyer]

The only restriction is that an ATCO at Belgocontrol can only work 12 (or 13, I'm not quite sure) days in a row. Then he should be off 1 day. So in a 30 day month an ATCO could work 28 days and be off for only 2! And yes, it happens, trust me.

Sorry, I think this cannot be true. It would be against EU labour law as far as I am aware (working time directive). Even if Belgium has made use of the so-called opt-out, like Germany or the UK have (I am not sure if Belgium has), there are still limits per week PLUS the requirement of minimum rest periods after certain hours / days of work. So I think you cannot be working 28 days in a month (at least not if you work 8h/day). Unless Belgocontrol is using some strange special rules which might apply to the army or other very special areas and are excluded from the EU directive.