Incident on Ryanair plane in Cracow

Post by **sn26567** » 29 Aug 2007, 09:14

According to Polish television station TVN24, a Ryanair Boeing 737-800 aircraft en route from Shannon (Ireland) to Cracow (Poland) (flight FR 1174) with 175 passengers on board suffered heavy damage on its wheels on landing at destination yesterday (28 August). Nobody was hurt but the airport has been closed for several hours.

regi · Post by **regi** » 29 Aug 2007, 10:48

how much are the passengers charged ?

Post by **sn26567** » 29 Aug 2007, 11:28

The story and a little film (both in Polish) can be seen here: http://www.tvn24.pl/0,1519457,0,1,wiadomosc.html

According to FlightStats, the return flight FR 1175 arrived 351 minutes late. That is close to 6 hours...

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 29 Aug 2007, 14:36

I wonder what could make front tyres look like this:

http://bi.gazeta.pl/im/1/4439/z4439471X.jpg

Flared too high or no flare at all?

And if you look at this one, you will understand that damage is worse than it looks... could have been very dangerous!!
The steering actuators don't seem to be in a healthy position anymore...

http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/Wiadomosci/ ... 4.html?i=1

pressman · Post by **pressman** » 29 Aug 2007, 15:06

The approach and landing were both normal , a puncture can happen for no particular reason , however once you do puncture , it tends to damage the various parts of the strut .

fcw · Post by **fcw** » 29 Aug 2007, 19:47

pressman wrote:The approach and landing were both normal , a puncture can happen for no particular reason , however once you do puncture , it tends to damage the various parts of the strut .

One flat tyre ok, but the 737 behaves normal with only one nose gear wheel... Damage to both nose wheels is probably caused by a hard or nose gear landing.

pressman · Post by **pressman** » 29 Aug 2007, 23:58

Like I already said , the landing was normal , while having just one nose wheel punctured will result in close to normal operation , the punctured wheel may also damage other parts of the gear which can quite easily lead to further damage on the good wheel , a nose wheel landing will cause a lot more damage than what is apparent in this case , it's also an extremely difficult thing to do in a 738 unless you physically push the nose down before touchdown , it would be a totally alien manoevure at that stage of flight as the aircraft has a natural nose up tendency on the approach , even if there was no flare the nose wheel should survive intact .

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 30 Aug 2007, 01:33

the landing was normal

How do you know?

Anyway, there are no PAPI's in Cracow, so crews tend to get vertically disoriented... and over or under-estimate the heights.

Look at the pics... the nose landing gear seems to be almost broken...

it would be a totally alien manoevure at that stage of flight as the aircraft has a natural nose up tendency on the approach , even if there was no flare the nose wheel should survive intact

This will prove you're wrong:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Pk1N6GzeOo

Flaring too high results in a stall too high above the runway and causes the aircraft to "bounce" and the nose gear might hit the runway hard if not enough backpressure is applied (while on the other hand you might risk a tailstrike).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvouwviMQJc&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIuFzi83Lr4

pressman · Post by **pressman** » 30 Aug 2007, 11:05

No PAPIs is Cracow ? Don't you think professional pilots can fly without the aid of PAPIs

Your video , although it was a test flight to fly the aircraft into the ground and it was an MD so really has no bearing on this scenario . it was not a stall , i never mentioned flaring too high - which would result in a hard landing on the mains anyway - you would want to be a total idiot to stall the aircraft anyway , with stick shaker warnings and flying 1.3 times below the approach speed ,

Your post makes no sense - it has nothing to do with anything .

TUB001 · Post by **TUB001** » 30 Aug 2007, 11:34

FLY4HOURS.BE, sometimes with your comments, I am really scared that you actually fly for real. Sorry, but this is just senseless.

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 30 Aug 2007, 11:40

I m hearing rumours about a bird-strike although it is far from being confirmed.

I guess we learn from our own mistakes and it happened to me once or twice in the beginning to flare too high which resulted in the airplane bouncing on the runway and being surprised that the plane was still in one piece...

I m gonna show you what happens to professional pilots, just gimme the time to find that video and you ll see what it means "to bounce"

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 30 Aug 2007, 12:31

This one came in too fast and when he flared he regained altitude and did not pull on the control column in order to avoid stalling too high and resulted in the bouncings.
Look how the nose gear hits the runway.
And if you don 't pull, the bouncings get worse...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhUO4pdG ... 2Brebondit

And don't be scared about me flying...

I know what I m talking about.

chunk · Post by **chunk** » 30 Aug 2007, 12:44

The coming in to fast is an interesting observation. Do Ryanair not do this as routine! I had two Ryanair flights 10 days ago from PIK - Shannon and back and on both the descent was (for me anyway) rapid to say the least and landing seemed very fast. Now it could just be down to flightplans or whatever but this is a common theme on Ryanair flights I have taken.....my friends do concur.

I should point out that i didn't feel unsafe or anything but do Ryanair have a policy of descending quickly? Does it save fuel? Could this pilot just over cooked it a little?

Pittsboy · Post by **Pittsboy** » 30 Aug 2007, 13:32

FLY4HOURS.BE , I agree with TUB001's comment.

I suggest you go fly 4 hours, you're going to need them...

pressman · Post by **pressman** » 30 Aug 2007, 14:16

"and did not pull on the control column in order to avoid stalling "

I hope to god I never fly with you , pulling on the stick to avoid stalling will lead to an even bigger stall and probably a tail strike - it's the last thing you do in that situation , you need to either go around or add power to reduce your descent rate whilst maintaining your pitch angle or even lowering it slightly .

In response to chunk - all FR approaches would be made between 140 - 150 knots depending on Flap setting and the wind - gusting winds would lead to a higher addition to the Vref speed . As regards the descent it would be very hard to tell as a passanger , it may be a long gradual descent at 1000 fpm or they might hold you high which would result in needing to wind up the speed to 320 kts to get down on time - a dive a full speed in other words would give you around 4000 fpm descent rate , add to this the speed brake and you get around 5500 fpm - nothing abnormal or dangerous about this - as a matter of fact BRU ATC often ask for high rates of descent into CRL in order to clear the departing traffic from BRU

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 31 Aug 2007, 04:35

When you come in fast and you flare, the aircraft initially enters a climb while its airspeed drops dramatically (engines are on idle). Seeing the speed nearing the stall speed and the height increasing, the pilot will need to apply a bit of power and maintain the nose-up in order to land softly and avoid getting into a nose-down position. (Depending of the runway available, you will eventually need to go-around)
Then, the aircraft enters a slight descent and the airspeed increases slightly but the pitch stays slightly nose-up.
It s better to land hard on the main gear than a bit less hard but on the nose gear.

It s about timing and the right pressure on the controls...
Pushing on the controls at anytime in this maneuver will put the airplane in a nose-down position from which it is nearly impossible to recover because of the low airspeeds and the resulting low response of the controls as well as the low height above the ground. (less time available to rotate the airplane)

You will notice the same when you flare too high.

"and did not pull on the control column in order to avoid stalling"

yes that's correct, pulling on the commands increases the angle of attack and takes the airplane closer and closer to the critical angle of attack. Pushing on the comands will not make your plane stall as it decreases the angle of attack....
I think you might confusing "pulling" and "pushing"...Comprende Anglesh?

pulling on the stick to avoid stalling will lead to an even bigger stall and probably a tail strike - it's the last thing you do in that situation

You don t need to pull that much... just keep the column as it was when you started to gain altitude but do not pull more, and as you near the ground pull progressively more.

Nonetheless pushing on the column at anytime in this situation is prohibited.

pressman · Post by **pressman** » 31 Aug 2007, 09:05

Thanks for the lesson , after 7000 hours I had forgotten that .

Pittsboy · Post by **Pittsboy** » 31 Aug 2007, 09:26

FLY4HOURS.BE wrote:When you come in fast and you flare, the aircraft initially enters a climb while its airspeed drops dramatically (engines are on idle). Seeing the speed nearing the stall speed and the height increasing, the pilot will need to apply a bit of power and maintain the nose-up in order to land

Just guessing: you don't fly large transport jets, do you?

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 31 Aug 2007, 09:42

7000 on ULM, glider or FS? Otherwise I would really like to know who you fly for...certainly after you suggest that a near stall situation above a runway should be coped with by applying pitch-down inputs...that is just crazy!!
And I thought I was just illustrating some basic theory to the people who do not have the chance to experience this stuff...

the pilot will need to apply a bit of power and maintain the nose-up in order to land

If you put too much power you're gonna be too fast when you need to flare again.

you don't fly large transport jets, do you?

Do you? If you do you should know that a go-around is the only option for "large transport jets" in this kind of situation...unless you fly in russia that is

TUB001 · Post by **TUB001** » 31 Aug 2007, 10:32

Sorry Fly4hours, but stop here...

Another proof of your ignorance is the "7000h on ULM or gliders?". Have you ever flown any of these? Apparently no, otherwise you wouldn't have missed another occasion to write down another stupid remark.

I'd suggest you to try that out before explaining "basic" aerodynamics, which you still didn't get.

[This final remark concludes this discussion, which is going completely out of control and off-topic - webteam]