Pilot shortage at Brussels Airlines ?

Vinnie-Winnie · Post by **Vinnie-Winnie** » 24 Jul 2007, 22:50

jan_olieslagers wrote:
Vinnie-Winnie wrote: Here is an idea! Why doesn't SN's management move SN's official address to somewhere like Ireland? No-one stops Ryanair flying from Charleroi to other countries because they are not registered in Belgium. Nor does anyone say they should be under the British tax regime though it's obvious that most of their operations are now based in the UK!
Surely the old Sabena once tried to hire their pilots under a Luxemburg contract? Nihil nove sub solem...

it can be done nevertheless... (http://www.business-int.com/categories/ ... ations.asp)

tolipanebas · Post by **tolipanebas** » 25 Jul 2007, 09:06

Oh, it can be done for sure and in fact it has been studied many times in the (recent) past, not only at Sabena, but also in the times thereafter to see to it that no social benefits would be lost by moving the operational departments of the airline out of the country and thus the grips of the Belgian tax men and some very nice solutions have been found to delocalise crews to luxembourg, yet the reason it hasn't been done yet is NOT technical, it is political!

Both middle management and pilots in principle agree delocalisation would be an acceptable mean to quickly reduce the GROSS salaries, while at the same time increase the NET salaries : a win-win situation so to say, yet the share holders have blocked this idea as it is reportedly seen as unpatriotic by them.

This is also the reason why Brussels Airlines has been whining about the high income taxes and social contributions on pilot salaries and why they would like to see a special tax agreement for Belgian Airlines: they'd want to have the same fiscal benefits as in a delocalisation, without having the flee from Belgium.

Well sorry, but not only is this something highly unrealistic (as otherwise other sectors in our industry will start asking the same), it is also something which will take an awfull lot of time (if it were faisable) thus their current thinking is NOT business like: it is pure politics.

As a normal business you don't want to waste an undetermined amount of time trying to change a system which puts you in a greatly unfavourable position, if you also have the possibility to immediately make use of the best systems available worldwide. You simply spare yourself the efford and change system... not so at SN, where they prefer to play don cichote!

Some of our share holders feel they have to show they earned their title of nobility, yet I wonder if they realise they are letting the company (and the crews) pay for that title in cash!

flyavro · Post by **flyavro** » 25 Jul 2007, 11:03

we are nearing the end of the month anyone heard any new names of pilots resigning?

JOVAN · Post by **JOVAN** » 25 Jul 2007, 14:10

Vinnie-Winnie wrote: - supporting the National Carrier can however be done by many other means: preferred carrier for government employees, tax facilities (see what SN pilots are claining now versus pilot-status in other EU countries?....

Right so you are telling me that BE potentially should pay twice or 3 times as much just to support the Belgian flag carrier? Once again that is just encouraging waste which will be repercuted on you me and at the end Brussel's airline pilots!

Point is that National Carriers still exist, and will as long as prestige exists. The price paid for it is different from country to country.

It is an easy cliché to deny this.

Vinnie-Winnie · Post by **Vinnie-Winnie** » 25 Jul 2007, 15:59

JOVAN wrote:Point is that National Carriers still exist, and will as long as prestige exists. The price paid for it is different from country to country.

It is an easy cliché to deny this.

Prestige in aviation does not exist anymore... Prestige is gained by what you achieve competing through fair means against your competitors!

What you are advocating is political interference, waste for a company that at the end might not be worth much anyway!

What we need are stable connections to all parts of the world! Whether it is Easyjet, American airlines or Brussels Airlines, who cares...

If Brussels airlines cannot afford to keep its pilots, then there must be something wrong. High cost structure has been pin-pointed, but other things are going wrong as well! How do you explain that other carriers from high cost country are doing ok then? Maybe they have a more sensible route structure more demand...

Bottom line is: Is it really worth it maintaining links to pretty much everywhere in Europe just for a few African destinations and Code-share agreement for carriers flying to other continents? Maybe Brussels Airlines needs to become even smaller, but with pilots being paid more...

Highly debatable I know...

ERICAIRLINES · Post by **ERICAIRLINES** » 25 Jul 2007, 16:22

or smaller or...larger..recreating a real hub at Bru ...we have a perfect tool (brussels airport)for that..a strong market (even if not as big as paris or london of course),in the heart of Europe...

fcw · Post by **fcw** » 25 Jul 2007, 21:15

tolipanebas wrote:Both middle management and pilots in principle agree delocalisation would be an acceptable mean to quickly reduce the GROSS salaries, while at the same time increase the NET salaries : a win-win situation so to say, yet the share holders have blocked this idea as it is reportedly seen as unpatriotic by them.

Very dangerous idea to lower the gross salaries! In a not so distant future EU-citizens will pay taxes in their country of residence, even if they work in another EU-country. The french and dutch NO may delay it, but it will come one day.

JOVAN · Post by **JOVAN** » 25 Jul 2007, 22:21

Prestige in aviation does not exist anymore... Prestige is gained by what you achieve competing through fair means against your competitors!

What you are advocating is political interference, waste for a company that at the end might not be worth much anyway!

@ Vinnie-Winnie

=>

The prestige element is certainly gone for the people working in the business. Pilots are about at the level of bus-drivers now.

Still every government in the world wants to keep the prestige of a National Airline.

Like it or not.

Just in International Herald Tribune of Tuesday 24 July, 2007.

"Wanted in Italy: savior for Alitalia" ..."no matter whether new owners are Eskimos or Chinese..." .... term imposed by Rome ...maintaining the the "Italian-ness" of the Airline.

Go over the list of all main airlines from any country: either the name, the flag, the country colours or symbols..... are there.

e.g. a kangoroo for Qantas from Liberal Australia.
Even Ryanair uses a harp, symbol of which country?

Good to be (a) liberal, but when it comes to national interests...

Let me make this clear, I am not advocating 'prestige', just recognizing it is there and it is there to stay.

phenix · Post by **phenix** » 31 Jul 2007, 11:58

hello

no new info about pilot shortage at SNBA ?????

and for when the next ab-initio selection ????

because they have 2 avro on the ground , no pilot

thank you

FlyA330 · Post by **FlyA330** » 31 Jul 2007, 17:59

At least 5 pilots will go to NetJets in the near future and I know about 2 who are accepted by Air France and waiting for a date to begin.

All very experienced Capt's and FO's.

I really don't know what will happen in the future with Bru Air. I have the impression that the run (fly) away is accelerating...

Gate-A1 · Post by **Gate-A1** » 31 Jul 2007, 19:16

Is hostesses and stewards also leaving the company or is this only pilots?

tolipanebas · Post by **tolipanebas** » 02 Aug 2007, 13:13

Last Friday (i.e. the last working day of the month) no less than 9 pilots gave in their resignation simultaneously!

Apparently HR couldn't really laugh with the situation as they are now getting real scheduling problems because all the quiters wanted to take up the remaining holidays before leaving in 6 weeks!

If b.air was still trying to play down the importance of the outflow a few weeks ago by saying the press got it wrong and not 50 but 'merely' 40 pilots had left the company this year, well: they definitely have reached the number now and there is no end in sight yet as a new group of pilots is waiting to leave, this time to Air France...

Vinnie-Winnie · Post by **Vinnie-Winnie** » 02 Aug 2007, 16:18

JOVAN wrote:
e.g. a kangoroo for Qantas from Liberal Australia.
Even Ryanair uses a harp, symbol of which country?

the examples you quote are symbols either used for historical reasons or branding reasons not prestige as such.

In Europe prestige is definately on the wane like it or not! And Belgium is definately not the country which attaches too much importance on prestige. (See attitude to the EU)

Back to the topic seems like Brussels Airlines has the same problems as Northwest! Difference is that Northwest competes on the same level playing field as its direct competitors I believe...

Makes you think...

zooloflyer · Post by **zooloflyer** » 02 Aug 2007, 21:24

Apparently HR couldn't really laugh with the situation as they are now getting real scheduling problems because all the quiters wanted to take up the remaining holidays before leaving in 6 weeks!

It's becoming a game - it's a fact that most of the ones leaving are so tired of the situation that they plan such a scenario in advance before resigning.

On the one hand it's good to have a nice break before starting training, on the other hand it's kind of 'pay-back' time after years of frustration I guess.

And still - no single reaction from managment - maybe they're ALL on vacation for the time being...

tolipanebas · Post by **tolipanebas** » 03 Aug 2007, 10:10

zooloflyer wrote:It's becoming a game - it's a fact that most of the ones leaving are so tired of the situation that they plan such a scenario in advance before resigning.

Oh they definitely do.

most pilots know exactly where their colleagues have applied for a job, they have sometimes crossed each other at the recruitment days of these airlines and now they keep each other up to date on their new starting dates, hence the idea grew to start resigning in groups, just for the fun of it and also to give the company as little time as possible to adapt to a sudden and drastic change to the already very low numbers of its flight crews.

Makes more fun indeed to see the face of your boss when he needs to take into receipt 9 resignations at once in total disbelief, rather than just 1 every 2 or 3 days, so he can't get used to it.

Just learned management are calling the stopping of the outflow their most important short tem action and have even used the word 'fire fighting' for it... Guess the heath is starting to feel.

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 03 Aug 2007, 10:31

tolipanebas wrote:Last Friday (i.e. the last working day of the month) no less than 9 pilots gave in their resignation simultaneously!

The legal period of resignation knowledge by an employee starts on the 1st of the month, following the day that the resignation letter has been sent. The last day to send this letter is three working days (Saturday included) before the end of the month.

Which means: if a pilot, whenever in July, has decided to quit, he had to make sure his resignation letter was sent before or on Friday 27th July. The three legal working days then are Sat 28th, Mon 30th and Tue 31st.

Was it a mass action last Friday? I don't think so. It's common use for both employers and employees not give knowledge before the legal term ends, as this indeed shortens the (working) time that both parties still have to work together, knowing that one of them doens't like the other.

tolipanebas · Post by **tolipanebas** » 03 Aug 2007, 11:07

LX-LGX wrote:Was it a mass action last Friday? I don't think so.

If you don't think 9 resignations on 1 single day is the most obvious evidence a MASSIVE EXODUS is indeed happening as we speak, I sincerely hope you don't hold any position which requires the ability to identify possible problems before they mature...

To make use of the terminology used by our managers nowadays: if 9 different fires flame up at the same time, firemen wouldn't call it coincidental, but rather man-started! Looks like you still need some fire fighting courses... Better attend them, because it will be greatly useful to you in short time.

LX-LGX wrote:It's common use for both employers and employees not give knowledge before the legal term ends, as this indeed shortens the (working) time that both parties still have to work together, knowing that one of them doens't like the other.

And how come one doesn't like the other?

I thought SN was such a great place to work at, wasn't it? At least that was what you have been telling all for months here?

I think it is only common use between pilots and management that you let your management know of your resignation ASAP, just so they can deal with any possible problems stemming from it...
Leaving office just before the deadline, in group, and go on holiday with almost immediate effect isn't realy proof of a good relation between pilots and SN is it? And yet these pilots are leaving to top airlines like Cargo Lux, Emirates, Air France etc who have a reputated recruitment policy to take on only the best, so clearly the problem can't be with us...

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 03 Aug 2007, 11:41

tolipanebas wrote:
I thought SN was such a great place to work at, wasn't it? At least that was what you have been telling all for months here?

1. yes, it still is. Apparently, it is for the people I knew and still know at Brussels Airlines. But that excludes pilots, off course.

2. I am a passenger, a client. And I really don't understand why the hell are you still working for them. If my boss would treat me like you say your boss is doing with you, and if he would underpay me like you say your boss is doing with you, I would resign as soon as possible. When are you leaving???

3. You, and just a handful of other pilots, are sh... on your employer every day, for months now. Why is that? Read the posts from the guys who are earning less then 1/3th of your salary, how proud they are if another plane has the new colours. Your posts really give me "plaatsvervangende schaamte".

4. Seems you have knowledge of the number of pilots in service. When are you going to give the figures of pilots who have joined the airline last months?

(would be great if you reply in a kind of normal language, not in union slogans like "they are the cause, it's their fault, they should pay us to worldwide standards, etc)

fly · Post by **fly** » 03 Aug 2007, 11:51

Pilots that have joined Brussels airlines in the past months are all ab initio pilots who will take anything aslong as it has wings and an engine and you can log it in your logbook (reminds me of myself a couple of years ago)
give them one year and their eyes will open up, so your comment on how many pilots joined that company doesn't realy hold, second of all the problem at Brussels airlines is that all their experience is leaving ( not only pilots also technicians) and in aviation that is a ticking time bomb.
and then at last since i joined a new company myself and i see how proffesional everything is run here it reminds me everyday why I left Brussels airlines and I am not talking about salary but about ops and how they run the company man, man ....... my eyes opend up alright.

tolipanebas · Post by **tolipanebas** » 03 Aug 2007, 12:31

LX-LGX wrote: Apparently, it is for the people I knew and still know at Brussels Airlines. But that excludes pilots, off course.

Off course.

Let's tackle this analytical shall we?

SN transports how much, 5 million people on their own metal???

Yet they employ about 3,000 persons directly, of which about half are actually working on the planes as pilots, cabin crew or technicians.

That means the rest of the 3,000 employees are providing god knows what services to the airline, its passengers and I think mainly each other...

A quick look through the internal telephone guide for b.air will show you its internal organisation looks like that of a federal government department, rather than a medium-sized modern low cost airline.

We have way too many postholders (often 2 even due to the 2 AOCs) who have definitely not much at hands: EVP VIP in flight services Europe for instance.... for an airline which promotes itself as some new generation low cost airlines!!!!

And the list of silly self-created functions like this is endless: all with their private secretary, their office, their company car (mind you, some of the brighter crayons in our box don't have a driver's license, but don't think for a second they renounce on the privilege to get a company car despite this privilege being very expensive for our cash strapped company, NO SIR, they rather lend it to their little boy friend, don't they??? Guess you know who I am talking about) and off course all with their zero productivity...

Make the ratio between pax transported and overhead staff, and compare it to places like Easyjet, Ryanair, heck even traditional carriers like Lufthansa... guess who is the undisputed leader??? Indeed, you've guessed right...It must be great indeed for some of the higher office based staff to work for such an airline indeed...

LX-LGX wrote: It Seems you have knowledge of the number of pilots in service. When are you going to give the figures of pilots who have joined the airline last months?

Easy... about half the number of those who have left.
All with less than 300 hours flown, so all extremely unexperienced junior co-pilots, wich mean the remaining crews see the number of working hours increase from month to month, as well as their work load during them, because you can't compare the skills of a co-pilot with 300 hours to one with 3,000 hours.

Even our CEO publicly admits there is a problem with too high workload for flight crew and he goes as far as thanking us personally in every single lettre he sends out to staff, regardless the topic of the lettre, so maybe you should take example of this good manners and at least admit to the problem, rather than trying to minimize it?

LX-LGX wrote: It would be great if you reply in a kind of normal language, not in union slogans like "they are the cause, it's their fault, they should pay us to worldwide standards, etc...

It would be great if you didn't give the impression unions are something abnormal and useless to a modern airline and drop all your managerial excuses. I challenge you to dare to identify and name the problems by their correct name, rather than hide them behind polite sounding words and external excuses to start with, before commenting on how I should phrase my point of view on how to tackle them effectively...