KLM+Belgian airlines having difficult times finding pilots

Airbuspilot · Post by **Airbuspilot** » 13 May 2007, 13:25

You can all say what you want, deny the truth or come to terms with it...

Here are a couple of facts. Time to wake up:

1) Belgian aviation finds itself in a situation which is really bad, and the only ones to blame for that are the Belgians themselves! Could be the politicians, people living around zaventem,...etc. Fact to the matter is that Belgian aviation once was one of the proudest in the industry. Nowadays our Aviators fly around the world as mercenaries. Most people with experience have found a nice job, getting paid tripple...The ones who stayed behind became manager in one of the flying clubs at zaventem, acting as chuck yeager and squeezing whoever remained in the Belgian aviation scene.

2) Aviation is an international industry. That means it has to play by international rules. Worldwide, a pilot vacuum ( not a shortage!) has been predicted within 5 years time. That means, in short, that pilots will go flying where THEY want to go! So in Belgium companies have two options: improve conditions untill they reach the industrial standard or close down and leave the field in favour of the serious players

3) Sorry to say, but loyalty does not exist anymore. I was a loayal employee of Sabena and I would have never left that company, no matter if SIA or EK payed the double salary. But when Sabena went bankrupt, I was forced....FORCED...to go and fly abroad! At that time, loyalty did not exist for me either. I was frowned upon, rejected in most Belgian companies because of my Sabena background ( unionists, overpaid, spoiled,...) So now its my (our) turn....Whoever pays me more, I will jois, and I will be as loyal as the conditions of the day tell me to be!
Loyalty and respect, as Mr Back to the old days is saying, exist only when they go both ways. In Belgium it is only one way...SORRY BYE BYE

4) The governement, in stead of screaming out loud nowadays, should start subsidising again the training. If pilots are needed so badly, why should a pilot in spe not be entitled to the same govermenemt funding as lets say a doctor. lawyer or engineer> These guys study years and years at minimum private costs, all subsidized by the state. So what is the big deal? Open up the job, make it accessible to everybody crazy enough to become a pilot.
Most universitary studies take 4-5 years, a pilot studies only 3 years due to the high degree of specialism involved...So have candidated paying a minimal entrance fee, like the universities. Do a thorough screening guaranteeing a low failure rate afterwards etc...
More than enough possibilities I would say...

5) It ia legally allowed to outflag flying personell to lets say Luxemburg. Only by doing so you would reduce the fiscal cost of a pilot with 25%. we are talking about maybe 3000 Belgian pilots ( if that much) involved, so again no big deal for the governement...

But no....continue to treat us like spoiled children, limit every movement and clip our wings as much as you can....and then, when everybody finally starts leaving, the governement AND the airlines start crying....Sorry guys...too late!

In stead of creating a new generation of pilots, maybe we should start thinking of a new generation of politicians and managers. people who look towards the future, people who are able to adapt to an ever changing environment, people who are able to keep up with the pace of our time.

And do not tell us the actual pilot salaries weigh too much on the budget! In the overall cost of an airline, pilots salaries are peanuts ( about 2% of the price of any ticket sold)....

And yes, we might be among the better paid employees within an airline...So what? What is the big deal? We do carry a huge responsability, we do give up a big part of our social life...
For the wankers here, come and spend christmass eve/the birthday of your son-daughter, with us at FL410 in the middle of the night. Just lets see how much thats worth to you!
and dont forget, we can loose our job every 6 months, year in year out!

So call us spoiled children, call us too demanding....call us whatever you like, its not going to help.
You, the poloticians and managers , who are crying know, are the only ones responsable for creating this mess! Now deal with it!
And deal with it OUR WAY this time, because you where proven wrong allready.
You short term vision in the past will cost you MUCH more now than if you only would have listened to us in the past.....

So all of you, wake up and smell the roses. This is the time in the cyclic movement of aviation where pilots have the stronger hand! Yes, we can ask wahetever we want and YES, we can and will go fly abroad when we want to do that

Belgian salaries:

FO: 2200 euro net
Capt: 3500 euronet

Expat conditions:

FO: 5500 euro net
CApt 9500 euro net

And that is an average. FOs in my company make 9700 euro net, captains 12000 euro.

Belgian can never meet these salaries, but at least they should match salaries of companies like EZ and Ryanair.

Note: ab initio pilots not considered. Sorry guys, for you things are a bit though at the moment but hang on in there. The scene is changing for you as well...

A390 · Post by **A390** » 13 May 2007, 13:33

Step 1 towards solution for pilot shortage: Belgian state starts thinking long term: insert the pilot training schools in a system overseen by the Minister of education as well as Mobility.
This way the state would OBVIOUSLY pay as for every other study. Compose the training of 2 modules: academic training at a university or comparable college (ex Industrial engineer) for 3 years (= scientific bachelors' degree focussed on aviation subjects , including ATPL stuff) followed by last year flight training at contracted and standardised flight schools.

These schemes do exist more and more in the US.

JayBeeke · Post by **JayBeeke** » 13 May 2007, 15:36

I have a possibly rather odd question about this subject, but I'll introduce the question first.

I watched a Dutch tv report on the subject about 2 weeks ago, and in the Netherlands the emphasis seems to be on the shortage of jr pilots, due to the lower attractiveness of the job and the price of the training. They never mentioned low wages at major Dutch airlines as a factor. But, as someone already wrote: KLM plays in a different league than BA does.

Through my old job, friends, former colleagues and relatives I've seen Belgian aviation from up close for a number of years, and it still interests me. I've had the chance to become a (journalism) student again ( 8) ) for a year, and having seen the Dutch point of view, I'd like to make my final tv report about the situation in Belgium. Ergo,

Are there any pilots working for a foreign airline interested in giving an interview, much like the one with Ludo Geysels, pref. at an(y) Belgian airport near them where it's allowed to film them on the airport grounds? (for which I will seek permission). Timeframe would be sometime between May 25th and June 5th. Just send me a PM.

I'm also going to try to get in touch with SFA, with someone from BATA and the Belgian govt.

Thanks in advance, best regards,
JJN

Airbuspilot · Post by **Airbuspilot** » 13 May 2007, 16:00

send me a message...but only if you are serious...

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 13 May 2007, 21:14

Jaybeeke, you have my full support.

I can assemble facts and figures for other schools than SFA in Belgium.
I've been flying in 2 of them, and as pilot in training, I can give you a brief report of the problems I am, and will be encountering in the future.

Thanks Airbuspilot for your post.
Your arguments are very convincing and I agree with you.
Perhaps the best thing is to create an association for pilots in training and to put pressure on the government.
That's the only way we can make them feel us. The population doesn'it even care about the "small number of pilots complaining".
The recent governements have seen Sabena go to the garbage bin without even offering it any minor support... If it didn't support the country's greatest proud, you can not expect alot.
Anyways I will report myself at the ministry of education and try to put pressure on them.
Knowing what I ve been through, the least I can do is to help new trainees to have better fiscal regimes.

If trainees decide to take a loan together with their parents, they can deduct the interests partially. It still stays a great amount.
For people working hard to earn monay for their training, a tax reducion will offer more than enough possibilities. That will help them to finish up their training sooner.

But who wants to fight for it?

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 13 May 2007, 22:35

Some blaim the past Belgian governments and/or "the Belgians" for not having done enough for Sabena and/or for Belgian aviation.

May I please remind you that from 1960 till 2000, the Belgian taxpayer every ongoing year had to cover up Sabena's losses? Except for 1998, when a nett result of 14,4 mio euro was booked.

Worst years for "the past governments and the Belgians": 1993 (111 mio euro), 1994 (another 111 mio euro) and 1996 (218 mio euro).

(results in BEF are converted to euro)

Mudvayne · Post by **Mudvayne** » 14 May 2007, 00:59

LX-LGX wrote: Talking about Easyjet: their result for Sept 2006 till March 2007: minus 25 mio euro. But still that's good news, as it was minus 59 mio euro for the same period last year.

hmmmm... where did you get those numbers....Ezy lost 17 million euro, and 40 million last year in those 6 months....

And to give you guys an idea, within ezy during the past 6 months 97% of the pilots stayed....

And Avro: 25OO euro bruto might sound nice as a start, but to give you an idea, at Ezy your start wage is around 6000 euro brut (and we pay english taxes and social security)....

And when (if they ever do it) ezy comes to brussels, don't be to sure a lot of pilots will leave belgian airlines.... they will start there with 3 aircraft, and even then there will already be a huge waiting list from within the company

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 14 May 2007, 07:09

Mudvayne wrote:
LX-LGX wrote: Talking about Easyjet: their result for Sept 2006 till March 2007: minus 25 mio euro. But still that's good news, as it was minus 59 mio euro for the same period last year.
hmmmm... where did you get those numbers....Ezy lost 17 million euro, and 40 million last year in those 6 months....

Dutch reliable source:
http://tinyurl.com/yq2pzk

English reliable source:
http://tinyurl.com/ysrvzj

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 14 May 2007, 09:01

Some blaim the past Belgian governments and/or "the Belgians" for not having done enough for Sabena and/or for Belgian aviation.

May I please remind you that from 1960 till 2000, the Belgian taxpayer every ongoing year had to cover up Sabena's losses? Except for 1998, when a nett result of 14,4 mio euro was booked.

Worst years for "the past governments and the Belgians": 1993 (111 mio euro), 1994 (another 111 mio euro) and 1996 (218 mio euro).

Well at least they knew what they needed to spend money for: Many people were employed thanks to Sabena (more than 10000 directly, 30000 indirectly) and although losses were big, part of it was recovered on the Sabena 's employee's taxes. The money was invested in a good way, we can say.
When it went bankrupt, governement still needed to pay those amounts, as unemplyment money to the fired staff...
Which was more efficient you think?

Mudvayne · Post by **Mudvayne** » 14 May 2007, 10:01

LX-LGX wrote:
Mudvayne wrote:
LX-LGX wrote: Talking about Easyjet: their result for Sept 2006 till March 2007: minus 25 mio euro. But still that's good news, as it was minus 59 mio euro for the same period last year.
hmmmm... where did you get those numbers....Ezy lost 17 million euro, and 40 million last year in those 6 months....
Dutch reliable source:
http://tinyurl.com/yq2pzk

English reliable source:
http://tinyurl.com/ysrvzj

Well, I wonder where they get those numbers because the official easyJet press release gives you this:

http://www.easyjet.com/en/News/interim_ ... _2007.html

"Loss before tax, reflecting seasonality of business, down 58% to £17m from £40m"

It's probably the tax thing...
But we're getting off topic with this...

FlyA330 · Post by **FlyA330** » 14 May 2007, 10:17

This discussion has nothing to do with Sabena!! This is about all the pilots of Belgian airlines.

Everybody knows that all Belgians had to pay for the losses of Sabena. But at that time Sabena was a State funded and (very bad) controlled company. The same as with the Post, NMBS, etc.. (all making huge losses !!)

I never flew for Sabena but I totally agree with Airbuspilot. After the Bankruptcy of Sabena and CityBird, the new born Belgian airlines all had the same idea; lower the salaries because every pilot will accept it. And most of them did. It was that or moving to a foreign country with your family or stay on the ground. We all have been treated as sh*t. They simply told you that if you didn't agree with the working conditions, you coud leave and that many were waiting to take over your job...The current market situation has been changed. All around Belgium, the airlines are booming. You can easily earn double net salary and still live in Belgium. So why stay at TC, VLM, Bru.Air., etc...? Airlines don't have to complain, they are the reason for the pilot shortage and they all have the key to solve it !!

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 14 May 2007, 10:32

Well A330, I myself think that Brussels Airlines has little keys to solve any problems as they are not very profitable and have very low budgets at this moment. I can understand them they want to keep costs very low to improve profits. I think the potential key is governement aid. A revised tax scheme will make this airline more profitable, while being able to offer more to their employees (so avoiding costly strikes)
More profit means more direct taxes!!
Brussels Airlines is going to win on it, and the treasury too. Win-Win!!!

The greatest thing about an airline is that it has great potentials to import direct capital: people from other countries buy a service offered by a Belgian airline=Money coming in from abroad=Better economy

Verhofstad, what are you waiting for??

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 14 May 2007, 19:04

FlyA330 wrote:After the Bankruptcy of Sabena and CityBird, the new born Belgian airlines all had the same idea; lower the salaries because every pilot will accept it. And most of them did. It was that or moving to a foreign country with your family or stay on the ground. We all have been treated as sh*t. They simply told you that if you didn't agree with the working conditions, you coud leave and that many were waiting to take over your job...The current market situation has been changed. All around Belgium, the airlines are booming. You can easily earn double net salary and still live in Belgium. So why stay at TC, VLM, Bru.Air., etc...? Airlines don't have to complain, they are the reason for the pilot shortage and they all have the key to solve it !!

SN Brussels Airlines was not established (out of DAT) because some business people said "he, there are plenty of cheap pilots on the market now who have to sign whatever: let's start an airline". SN Brussels Airlines started because our King and our governement have begged Davignon and Lippens, two of the top three of our 2001 top establishment to try to reduce the social drama after Sabena's bankruptcy for both the airline industry and the airport (passengers, cargo, shops & other airport jobs).

Reducing the social drama and maintaining a certain level of jobs was the main reason, please do not forget it - even not after 5 years.

The investors in DAT / SN Brussels Airlines are companies who are used to 10% nett return on investment. So they would never invest in a branch that could never realize that - even not by half, if there was not that moral pressure.

Second reason: they (= Royal Palace and Vrhfstdt) didn't want a foreign airliner to become number one at BRU. Plain chauvinism indeed, like we've seen in the De Benedetti saga.

FlyA330 wrote:The current market situation has been changed. All around Belgium, the airlines are booming. You can easily earn double net salary and still live in Belgium. So why stay at TC, VLM, Bru.Air., etc...? Airlines don't have to complain, they are the reason for the pilot shortage and they all have the key to solve it !!

Agree, times have changed. The market is now completely deregulated - trust those from Sabena's sales department still remember the bottom line under new tariffs: "under governement approval". So there is now real competition.

Also, 11th September has stopped the very lucrative First and Business travel and has also moved more people to LCC's. So the LCC's have moved in to the big airports.

Brussels Airlines has changed from starter to young enterprise, but still prefers to play safe (thus no investement in a series of A320's like SN did...). For the staff salaries, this means: a very polite "take it or leave it". If someone wants to double his salary by going abroad, so be it. But don't blame Brussels Airlines for not joing the game. Because if they match the salaries, foreign carriers will triple. And then?

Airbuspilot · Post by **Airbuspilot** » 14 May 2007, 20:17

Brussels Airlines has changed from starter to young enterprise, but still prefers to play safe (thus no investement in a series of A320's like SN did...). For the staff salaries, this means: a very polite "take it or leave it". If someone wants to double his salary by going abroad, so be it. But don't blame Brussels Airlines for not joing the game. Because if they match the salaries, foreign carriers will triple. And then?

LG,

I have to say I do not agree at all with many of your statements. I will leave the Sabena ones aside, since this i not the time nor the place.
One thing though....If what you are saying is true, how come for the first time in Belgian history, after a bankruptcy, all deficiaries where paid integrally AND the curator still has money available?

Regarding your last statement....Brussels airlines does not have to double...they have to come at the same level as airlines around Belgium!
I agree that airlines will always try to steal pilots away from eachother, thats the open market, but I truly believe that many pilots would stay loyal to Brussels if only the net salaries would be a bit more competitve,

A capt at Netjets makes 7000 euros net to fly a HS125 around, I am sure if SN would pay the same guy 5500 euros to fly an A320 he probably would stay at SN.

And than we still have possible incentives from the governement regarding taxation of pilots, subsidizing training etc...

Many things can be done...

What is sure if nothing gets done NOW, Belgian aviation will seize to exist and will end up 100% in the hands of foreign countries....

SN will go first ( the bad habits of Sabena apparently reign in the B.A. offices allready as well)....JET AIRWAYS, TNT , EZ etc will happily take over

EDIT: Avro edited your layout - to apply the quotings in the correct way

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 14 May 2007, 21:15

I have to say I do not agree at all with many of your statements. I will leave the Sabena ones aside, since this i not the time nor the place. One thing though....If what you are saying is true, how come for the first time in Belgian history, after a bankruptcy, all deficiaries where paid integrally AND the curator still has money available?

No, it's not a clean bankruptcy. Not all deficiaries have been paid out! Only the first line preferential plainters have been: staff, VAT, TAX, Social Security, other Finance Departments. The banks have sent in their files, as second in line preferentials. The non preferential deficiaries (foreign fuel suppliers, hoteliers, other carriers, printing and PR companies, car leasing companies (Golf and Passat...) are still waiting for the letter from the liquidator with his pay out coefficient (I know one: he's expecting to see a zero...).

The non-preferential suppliers will only get something if the liquidators manage to get something from the court case (500 mio euro) against the Swissair's management.

And finally, the biggest loosers of all to feel really sorry about: the passengers. Some of them were blocked in Belgium with a useless ticket in hands, others were blocked overseas and had to pay for a hotel and for a return ticket elsewhere. None of the passengers have been refunded by the liquidator, as far as I know. The only passengers who have recovered something, were those pax who have bought their tickets through a VVR-agent (Association of Flemish Travel Agents). The V.V.R. indeed had managed to block the money for SN-tickets on the BSP-account till both sectors were flown.

If there is something left after that, also the shareholders will recover something from their multio billion investment, as the liquidator is unable to refund themat this moment.

Good news for the liquidator was that not all of the suppliers have sent a file to the liquidator. Specially those without a VAT on their invoice haven't (queueing up with the liquidator only guarantuees one can recover the VAT).

The liquidator knows this bankruptcy case will not be closed within years, so off course there is money left.

Trust the deal with SIC and the 1 euro he received from Davignon for the DAT-shares from Sabena is too far off topic...

LJ · Post by LJ » 14 May 2007, 21:48

LX-LGX wrote: Talking about Easyjet: their result for Sept 2006 till March 2007: minus 25 mio euro. But still that's good news, as it was minus 59 mio euro for the same period last year.

Don't know what the exact point is you want to make, but I reckon you know that easyJet always makes a loss between September and March........

FlightMate · Post by **FlightMate** » 15 May 2007, 00:36

From what I've read on their Website, they did 94 mil € profit after tax, last year...

So indeed, what was your point, LX?

fcw · Post by **fcw** » 15 May 2007, 08:07

FlightMate wrote:From what I've read on their Website, they did 94 mil € profit after tax, last year...

So indeed, what was your point, LX?

And this profit will increase to 130 tot 140 mio this year which means that captains who are more than 3 years in the company will get a profit share BONUS equal to a YEAR salary of a BruAir capt...

FlyA330 · Post by **FlyA330** » 15 May 2007, 09:16

LX

SN Brussels Airlines was not established (out of DAT) because some business people said "he, there are plenty of cheap pilots on the market now who have to sign whatever: let's start an airline".

I didn't say that about SNBA. I am talking about all Belgian airlines. They didn't start because there were cheap pilots around. TC, TUI and SNBA only took advantage of the after Sabena and City-Bird period to give the pilots a lower salary and worse working scheme because there was no shortage of pilots. At that time everybody wanted to fly no matter the price!!

b-west · Post by **b-west** » 15 May 2007, 09:24

With all this talk about the careles and incompetent Belgian government and the diabolic airline managers, everybody seems to overlook one thing... KLM is complaining about the lack of pilots as well. As far as I know, they're Dutch (though some would argue French). So, why are they experiencing the same problems? Do they underpay their pilots as well? Is the Dutch government as incompetent as supposedly the Belgian is?