Why isn't Brussels a big hub ?

teddybAIR · Post by **teddybAIR** » 09 Jun 2006, 11:53

Well, given the fact that you need to leave 4 hours in advance and that you thus loose all this time, I guess the cost of a cab would perfectly be justified in your case (professionally ofcourse)

regards,
tom

chornedsnorkack · Post by **chornedsnorkack** » 09 Jun 2006, 12:04

So, how long is a train from Brussels to Cologne supposed to take?

Brussels-Paris, 310 km, is 1:25
Cologne-Frankfurt, 180 km, is 1:10
Brussels-Cologne is something like 230 km...

Also, do trains from Brussels to Cologne and beyond stop in Zaventem?

Stij · Post by **Stij** » 09 Jun 2006, 12:08

From Leuven the situation has inproved a lot lately! From closing the door of my appartment to opening the clients office door in the Docklands: 2:30! VLM rules!

Cheers,

Stijn

b720 · Post by **b720** » 09 Jun 2006, 12:22

stijn: U must live at pier B..

I do take the a cab once in a while (when company is paying) or park at the front park. On the other hand when VLM flew to GVA from Deurne -now that was something - it tooka bit over 2 hours door to door. What a shame they dropped the route.....Indeed VLM does it better!!!

teddybAIR · Post by **teddybAIR** » 09 Jun 2006, 12:51

Is there a considerable difference between the flight time ofVLM and other carriers that operate jet engined equipment on the Geneva route?

b720 · Post by **b720** » 09 Jun 2006, 12:55

flight on VLM took approx. 80 minutes from Antwerp to Geneva.. Virgin express flies the route 737 from BRU 60 minutes sometimes 50 minutes...SN Avros some flights 319 same as virgin 50-60 minutes..although SN is almost always delayed on that flight..minimum 20 minutes.. while virgin leaves on the dot..(VLM was pretty punctual too on GVA flight)

teddybAIR · Post by **teddybAIR** » 09 Jun 2006, 13:17

So there was a 20-30 minute difference in travelling time between the both. I guess this was somehow reflected in the ticketprice and that VLM was sheaper on the route than SN or Virgin Express

earthman · Post by **earthman** » 09 Jun 2006, 14:40

b720 wrote:I use BRU on a weekly basis..i live and work in antwerp. There is no way to use public transportation if my flight departs at 07:00 am or earlier. I will simply miss my flight, I need to use my car and park at the airport. I also avoid taking last flights into BRU as with a simple delay of 30 min (very frequent by the way) I will miss last SN Brussels bus to Ant. let alone trains via brussels north station, when a trip after 22:00 can take over 90 minutes from zaventem to Antwerp -taken me longer at times. On the other hand, when I fly during the day I need to leave my office a good 3-4 hours before departure time which is ridiculous given that the airport is 40 km away!!!! a flight to geneva for instance, takes me about 6 hours door to door (from antwerp using BRU of course), the whole trip takes 7 hours by car door to door..now at this age and time that is not normal.

Here's another advantage AMS has: not only do a huge lot of intercity, international, and HST trains stop there, it's also on the route of the night train Utrecht-Amsterdam-Schiphol (duh)-Leiden-Den Haag-Delft-Rotterdam and vice versa. You won't get stuck at the airport at any time ever. That is, as long as the trains don't break down.

Stij · Post by **Stij** » 09 Jun 2006, 14:48

b720 wrote:stijn: U must live at pier B..

I do take the a cab once in a while (when company is paying) or park at the front park. On the other hand when VLM flew to GVA from Deurne -now that was something - it tooka bit over 2 hours door to door. What a shame they dropped the route.....Indeed VLM does it better!!!

Nope, but right in front of the Leuven Railway Station I must admit.

Cheers,

Stij

sn-remember · Post by **sn-remember** » 09 Jun 2006, 18:16

jan_olieslagers wrote:A HST connection might help to attract people from further away, iow from abroad, like Cologne or Amsterdam or Paris, but they have big hubs close already, why should they prefer our airport even with high speed trains? Even someone from Rijssel (Lille) will prefer the HST to CDG over one to BRU. So I see little use in a HST connection to BRU.

I am sorry to disagree.

Personnally I tend to believe that it would be great to have BRU linked with HST to such cities as Paris, Lille, Cologne, Amsterdam or Rotterdam.
Later when the HST link exists, also to Luxemburg and Strasburg.
Why ? Because it would really integrate the airport in its natural region therefore putting BRU in direct competition with the 3 major hubs FRA/CDG/AMS . I believe in theory there is a place for that.
It would surely give BRU some badly needed additional oxygen.
I still hope it can be achieved ...
This topic was already abundantly discussed many times on this forum..

Concerning the Normal-ST links, it should be possible to intensify the direct links for instance Ghent(or whatever)-BrusselsCity-Airport to avoid people having to change trains in the Brussels station. No?
The Diabolo project is very positive in the sense that it makes possible to avoid BrusselsCity on certain lines but why is the schedule lagging so much?

Let me remind you that an integrated station at the airport was maybe an issue 40 yrs ago but today it is assumed that you have it operational and up to the standards. Again BRU makes an exception and must catch up for the historical bad decisions and the lost time.

Today the issue is rather to open up the airport to LCCs which will inevitably bring new cheap feeding from all over Europe.
Yes the KLM (and other's like IB or LX) model of cheap s/h links to feed more profitable l/h routes is still fully applicable. Personnally I feel that SN is on the wrong track here, except if they significantly intensify their l/h operations.

Regards
Christophe

Stij · Post by **Stij** » 12 Jun 2006, 06:57

Cristophe,

I totally agree with you, but Brussels was actually on of the first airports in the world to be connected to the railway system. They just saw it as a link between the airport and Brussels, where they created the Air Terminus (If I remember well). This was also the old Sabena HQ.

Unfortunately nobody realised that there's more in Belgium then Brussels and (until recently) they never integrated the airport railway system with the nationwide system. Things are changing for the better, to late, but they're changing.

Cheers,

Stij

P.S. Used the train again yesterday again between BRU and Leuven. Love it!

Post by **sn26567** » 12 Jun 2006, 09:32

Stij wrote:Used the train again yesterday again between BRU and Leuven. Love it!

Me too. But again, why did SNCB/NMBS build the Nossegem curve at high costs, and then limit the trains going in that direction at Leuven, and eventually Landen. Why are there no trains to Liège, Verviers, Eupen, Aachen and Cologne?

Vinnie-Winnie · Post by **Vinnie-Winnie** » 12 Jun 2006, 11:22

sn26567 wrote:
Stij wrote:Used the train again yesterday again between BRU and Leuven. Love it!
Me too. But again, why did SNCB/NMBS build the Nossegem curve at high costs, and then limit the trains going in that direction at Leuven, and eventually Landen. Why are there no trains to Liège, Verviers, Eupen, Aachen and Cologne?

I'd wait until the Diabolo is finished to really judge the SNCB on this! At the moment it is quit hard on an operational point of view to make trains turn around at Brussels Airport! for about 200 people travelling on a Liege to Brussels train, I would expect maximum 30 people to leave the train at the Airport. So why delay by at least 15 minutes travellers going to Brussels?

at the moment we have this:

LIEGE GUILLEMINS: D:11:08
LOUVAIN: A:11:58
LOUVAIN: D:12:08
BRUXELLES NAT AEROPORT: A:12:23

Which is not too bad I find!

BrightCedars · Post by **BrightCedars** » 12 Jun 2006, 11:37

I think that a massive expansion of the airport is not the right direction to take. Tomorrow's travel is made of car or high-speed train for distances up to 500 kms (sometimes up to 1,000km), basic or classy flying for distances up to 3-3,500km and longhaul flying.
AMS, CDG, FRA and LHR are major intercontinental hubs and there is no way BRU is going to replace any of those. I think the airport should focus on the local market.
Sure, a stronger player is needed - maybe part of a global alliance (I'm not convinced) - and some more longhaul routes are needed; long thin point-to-point business and leisure routes that BRU may be able to support. I can see airplanes like the 787 make frequent routes to HKG or NRT possible.
Let those airports welcome the A380s and thru traffic and let Brussels catter for the local business and the odd thru traffic. Not every airport in the world needs to be the biggest. Let's benefit from the relative proximity of BRU to the city and maximize it's daytime potential while reducing nuisance for it's neighbouring population at night.
As far as Africa is concerned, I wouldn't get over excited about it. If it booms, BRU or any point in Europe is far from being on the natural path between almost anywhere and Africa. More direct links will bypass BRU such as the announced DL ATL-DKR-JNB.

Stij · Post by **Stij** » 12 Jun 2006, 12:54

sn26567 wrote:
Stij wrote:Used the train again yesterday again between BRU and Leuven. Love it!
Me too. But again, why did SNCB/NMBS build the Nossegem curve at high costs, and then limit the trains going in that direction at Leuven, and eventually Landen. Why are there no trains to Liège, Verviers, Eupen, Aachen and Cologne?

André,

I once read that this is just the initial phase and that they're planning to increase the utilization of the station, but as Vinnie-Winnie already indicated: a station where every train has to change directions has a very limited capacity. I think when the diabolo is finished we will see Schiphol like operations.

Cheers,

Stij

earthman · Post by **earthman** » 12 Jun 2006, 13:06

But will it not still be a side branch of the railroad system? Or will it be the main line between Antwerpen and Brussels?

Will the Thalys stop there? And the regular international AMS-BRU trains?

Vinnie-Winnie · Post by **Vinnie-Winnie** » 12 Jun 2006, 14:00

BrightCedars wrote:I think that a massive expansion of the airport is not the right direction to take. Tomorrow's travel is made of car or high-speed train for distances up to 500 kms (sometimes up to 1,000km), basic or classy flying for distances up to 3-3,500km and longhaul flying.
AMS, CDG, FRA and LHR are major intercontinental hubs and there is no way BRU is going to replace any of those. I think the airport should focus on the local market.
Sure, a stronger player is needed - maybe part of a global alliance (I'm not convinced) - and some more longhaul routes are needed; long thin point-to-point business and leisure routes that BRU may be able to support. I can see airplanes like the 787 make frequent routes to HKG or NRT possible.
Let those airports welcome the A380s and thru traffic and let Brussels catter for the local business and the odd thru traffic. Not every airport in the world needs to be the biggest. Let's benefit from the relative proximity of BRU to the city and maximize it's daytime potential while reducing nuisance for it's neighbouring population at night.
As far as Africa is concerned, I wouldn't get over excited about it. If it booms, BRU or any point in Europe is far from being on the natural path between almost anywhere and Africa. More direct links will bypass BRU such as the announced DL ATL-DKR-JNB.

:thumbsup2:

Couldn't have said it in a better way!

Vincent

teddybAIR · Post by **teddybAIR** » 12 Jun 2006, 14:09

earthman wrote:But will it not still be a side branch of the railroad system? Or will it be the main line between Antwerpen and Brussels?

Will the Thalys stop there? And the regular international AMS-BRU trains?

To answer your questions:

1. The main line is via Brussels-Vilvoorde-Mechelen-Antwerp
2. After making my thesis on a possible second location for a hst-hub in the brussels region, I don't think it would be feasable to have hst's coming from france or england in BRU as they would need to cross the north-south-axe. Trains coming from the netherlands or Germany are unlikely to stop at BRU for a seperate reason and that is the delay in travelling time to BRU...it's a high speed train, nog a 'boemelken'

Hope this answers your questions

Aviation24.be

Why isn't Brussels a big hub ?

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Serving the local market is good enough

Re: Serving the local market is good enough