Conflicting opinions about the dispersion plan of BRU

Post by **airbuske** » 23 Mar 2006, 22:02

Atlantis wrote: In the study, made by a university, they predict that between 2008 and 2015 when some airlines leaving Zaventem and with less jobs this means a crash for the federal government with 1 billion euro's.

That means that the only big industry will be our seaports. This means that Belgium will become a third world country.

Who's going to pay that when 60.511 people loss their job? One job on the airport = two jobs outside the airport.

Then it will be to late

And what about Macquarie ? I don't think that they would like to see that
their investment was good..... for nothing.

I thought Verhofstadt would like to create 200 000 jobs ?

Post by **sn26567** » 24 Mar 2006, 15:47

The simple (too simple?) solution is back to pre-1999 situation: then there were more planes, these planes were more noisy, and there were few complaints. And it was also the safest solution: runways were selected according to the atmospheric conditions.

Who said 'too simple'?

pascal-air · Post by **pascal-air** » 24 Mar 2006, 16:21

If you are pragmatic and if you remove all the political aspects, accept some limitations, constraints and spend some money for insulation, expropriations, the problem is quite simple.

Today, the pre-1999 solution is requested by:
+ Brussels
+ Flander (Krainem, Wezembeek, Kortenberg, Erp, ... except Noordrand)
+ Wallonia (Hulpe, Waterloo,...)

But Landuyt refuses because the solution is inappropriate.... (politically because everybody knows that Anciaux is behind that and Landuyt follows Anciaux and Anciaux has some plans for noordrand). So the problem is one guy indeed....

sn26567 wrote:The simple (too simple?) solution is back to pre-1999 situation: then there were more planes, these planes were more noisy, and there were few complaints. And it was also the safest solution: runways were selected according to the atmospheric conditions.

Who said 'too simple'?

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 25 Mar 2006, 22:26

For those who understand Dutch:

BRU is the main issue in Sunday's talkshow "De Zevende Dag":

11h00 (één), 23h50 (één) and 01h25 (Canvas):

De vaudeville over de geluidshinder rond de luchthaven van Zaventem bereikt stilaan kafkaiaanse vormen. Wiens bevoegdheid moet doorwegen: Vlaanderen, Brussel of moet de bevoegheid gewoon terugkeren naar het federale niveau?

airazurxtror · Post by **airazurxtror** » 26 Mar 2006, 12:27

Nobody, be it french- or dutch-speaking, enjoys being repeatedly woken up in his sleep night after night.
On can understand that, can't one ?

There are problems not only at BRU, but also at LGG, at CRL (curfew from 2300 to 0630), at ANR (no lenghtening of the runway, a whole drama to cut a few trees on the approach path) and even at the small airfield of Grimbergen, the locals had the activities severely curtailed (and one runway closed). People are more and more sensitive to noise, even by day.

I am an air enthusiast, but nevertheless, I am not overly happy when woken up on week-end by an early charter, or when the police copters circle for hours above the European district where I live...

As for building a new airport in Walloony, I very much doubt it would be possible...

Zenfookpower · Post by **Zenfookpower** » 26 Mar 2006, 14:29

airazurxtror wrote:Nobody, be it french- or dutch-speaking, enjoys being repeatedly woken up in his sleep night after night.
On can understand that, can't one ?...........................
I am an air enthusiast, but nevertheless, I am not overly happy when woken up on week-end by an early charter, or when the police copters circle for hours above the European district where I live............................................

You cannot have one without the other....Here we go again.. being an "air enthusiast" as long as it is not in my backyard.. In my humble opinion, this is exactly why Belgium cannot seem to resolve this issue..

The problem is not the airport.. you have a very dense population and this is INHERENT to this condition.. There is a LOT of man made noise..So either live with it and keep on employing 60,000 people or close it with the economic consequences or in last instance you can always move..

The free economy should decide this not your politicians..(my humble opinion of course..)

killerwhale65 · Post by **killerwhale65** » 05 Apr 2006, 19:00

Raad van State positief over vliegwet: http://www.vrtnieuws.net/nieuwsnet_mast ... ndex.shtml

(sorry can't translate this in English)

Post by **sn26567** » 06 Apr 2006, 08:41

killerwhale65 wrote:Raad van State positief over vliegwet: http://www.vrtnieuws.net/nieuwsnet_mast ... ndex.shtml

(sorry can't translate this in English)

I can: "State Council positive about new air regulation".

In fact it is not really the case. The Council of State says that Minister Landuyt should have consulted the regional governments of Flanders and Brussels and take a common decision, which he did not.

My guess is that we are still far away from a decision. And the only logical one (let the weather decide!) is rejected by everyone.

killerwhale65 · Post by **killerwhale65** » 06 Apr 2006, 15:53

sn26567 wrote:My guess is that we are still far away from a decision.

The article however mentions they are close to a solution. Most of the proposal was agreed with, the council only disagreed with some minor non-essential details. The law would go to the parliament by June. At least thats what the news-article says ...

Zenfookpower · Post by **Zenfookpower** » 09 Apr 2006, 04:44

So for the Belgian people out there.. Where are you on this subject and what are the outlooks.. It seems like nobody wants to take a stand.. Or is this forum also entangled in the Belgian politics..?
Keep in mind there are 60,000 jobs at stake or does nobody care...!!!

AFApresident · Post by **AFApresident** » 09 Apr 2006, 11:49

Zenfookpower wrote:So for the Belgian people out there.. Where are you on this subject and what are the outlooks.. It seems like nobody wants to take a stand.. Or is this forum also entangled in the Belgian politics..?
Keep in mind there are 60,000 jobs at stake or does nobody care...!!!

Like every major Belgian problem ... this one too is entangled in a web of mutual mistrust between flemish and french speaking belgians.

We're like a ship with a captain who doesn't want to do anything because he is afraid he will create a riot with 50% of the population.

Hopefully "our" captain and his officers also understand that doing nothing is far worse.

I hope this airport dispersion plan will turn out well... however I am sure it will be again a Belgian compromise ... which will suit nobody, but just cover up both sides their mistakes.

It's a shame ... Belgium could do so well in all major world rankings .. however due to stupid ego's on both sides we're risking to lose it all.

Zenfookpower · Post by **Zenfookpower** » 09 Apr 2006, 14:36

Thanks AFApresident.

I got the picture..I hope your "captain" has read "Cane mutiny" and "Bounty mutiny" .
I understand that you will have elections coming up this year..? Hope something will change..

Indeed I have stated before in similar threads.. There are 60,000 jobs at stake..These are NOT your "government jobs" but jobs created by private industries hence free economics should prevail, hence politics should stay out of this..
Anyway good luck ..

A350-lover · Post by **A350-lover** » 09 Apr 2006, 19:34

Zenfookpower wrote:So for the Belgian people out there.. Where are you on this subject and what are the outlooks.. It seems like nobody wants to take a stand.. Or is this forum also entangled in the Belgian politics..?
Keep in mind there are 60,000 jobs at stake or does nobody care...!!!

I'm belgian and i can't stand what's happening now. I'm not an expert, but i think the only solution is to build a super-airport offshore. Because i think (i'm not very sure about that), that there are the same problems with noise in heathrow and AMS. I believe in city airports like London City and huge offshore airports like there is in asia.

I'm doing environmental studies, and a lot environmental enthusiasts will say that i'm wrong. But i think the government should take strong decisions and not half ones or keep on discussing like what's happening at the moment. Because what's happening now is bad for everybody: economics, people and environment.

airazurxtror · Post by **airazurxtror** » 14 Apr 2006, 11:11

In "Le Soir" this morning :
The Belgian Cockpit Association (BeCA) has criticized the plan for the dispersion of flights around Zaventem.
The association wants the respect of international rules demanding that landing and take off be made into wind.
The association is for the use mainly of 25R/25L and 07R/07L - 02/20 being used only when the wind direction demands it

xeno · Post by **xeno** » 14 Apr 2006, 13:14

airazurxtror wrote:In "Le Soir" this morning :
The Belgian Cockpit Association (BeCA) has criticized the plan for the dispersion of flights around Zaventem.
The association wants the respect of international rules demanding that landing and take off be made into wind.
The association is for the use mainly of 25R/25L and 07R/07L - 02/20 being used only when the wind direction demands it

they also recommend:

- respecting ICAO tailwind and crosswind components of 5/15 kts guts included (currently 7/20 for the parallel runways)
- intsallation of ILS at both 07R and 07L (= direct landings over Brussels, very curious if this could ever be the case?)
- departing over Brussels does not compromise safety

All very logical suggestions IMO, but political very very difficult to perform...

Zenfookpower · Post by **Zenfookpower** » 18 Apr 2006, 17:51

Just read THIS article.. Is this real news and is this well received now..?

killerwhale65 · Post by **killerwhale65** » 18 Apr 2006, 17:56

yes this is real news. Landuyt will now do it alone without negociating with Flemmish and Brussels government, since the other governments cannot get to an agreement. He will present this week a new dispertion plan with maximum dispertion. This plan is provisional, awaiting the actual law coming this summer.

pascal-air · Post by **pascal-air** » 18 Apr 2006, 18:54

Yeah and the closure of the airport is approaching very fast. He made a huge mistake and now for sure there will be not only 100 000 complains but 1 000 000 complains next weeks ! Dispersion is definitely bad...

killerwhale65 wrote:yes this is real news. Landuyt will now do it alone without negociating with Flemmish and Brussels government, since the other governments cannot get to an agreement. He will present this week a new dispertion plan with maximum dispertion. This plan is provisional, awaiting the actual law coming this summer.

Zenfookpower · Post by **Zenfookpower** » 18 Apr 2006, 19:05

As long as air traffic safety is the number ONE consideration, what is wrong then with equal dispersal.. How else can you guys resolve this..? An approach of "not in my backyard" will doom the airport and its employement.