Britain to buy Rafale in the future?

[pietn]

BRITAIN may consider buying up to 150 French fighter jets for two
new-generation aircraft carriers scheduled to go into service with the Royal
Navy in 2013.


If the Government went ahead with the £5bn deal, it would mean cancelling
existing US contracts to supply aircraft for the carriers and could cause a
major crisis in Anglo-American relations.
The unexpected verbal offer to buy the Rafale Marine jets came on January 24
when Defence Secretary John Reid met his opposite number, Michele
Alliot-Marie, for crucial talks in London.
It followed well publicised difficulties between Britain and America on the
Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) project, dogged by a row over sharing technology.
It is understood that Reid said he would consider the French offer. Even
agreeing to give the proposal serious consideration could be seen as a major
snub to the Americans, whose relations with the French on defence are
strained.
The French offer follows America's continued refusal to agree to the
transfer of advanced technology on the JSF - the jet being built in the US
by Lockheed Martin with co-operation from Britain.
The Ministry of Defence has already paid the Americans £2bn for development.
BAE Systems, Britain's leading defence contractor, which is a vital partner
in the project, was hoping for about £14bn in development and production
contracts.
The MoD declined to give details of the French offer, but defence sources in
Paris confirmed that a lengthy conversation took place.
The American refusal to share technology means that if one of the JSFs
needed repairs, the work would have to be carried out in America.
It would also mean British forces would not have the right codes to arm the
planes if they wanted to use them for missions not approved by the Pentagon.
There is growing anger at the Americans' obduracy over technology transfer.
Britain has now made it clear that without 'achieving the appropriate level
of sovereignty' over the JSF, it will consider cancelling the contract.
Washington's reluctance to give up the technology to its closest military
ally is fuelled by fears that Britain might allow foreign firms access to
America's most precious commercial and defence secrets.
Faced by the the refusal to share technology, Lord Grayson, Minister for
Defence Procurement, said: 'There has to be a Plan B. We need to make sure
we have done the work needed to ensure we have an option.'
The MoD still hopes that the Americans will change their minds. Meanwhile,
it is looking at its options. Giving consideration to the French offer could
strengthen the MoD's negotiating hand with Washington.
The 60,000-tonne carriers planned for the Royal Navy are designed to have
powerful catapults built into the deck. This means they are not restricted
to the vertical take-off version of the JSF. They could fire conventional
take-off JSFs as well as modified Typhoon Eurofighters.
The Rafale Marine is already in service and is designed for use on France's
new carrier - identical to those being built for the Royal Navy.
The decision by Paris to buy the design of the UK carriers for their own
second large carrier makes the French option more palatable.
The French jets cost about £35 million each and would be cheaper, if
probably unpopular, with the forces.
Gerald Howarth, Conservative defence spokesman, said: 'This shows the danger
of the American refusal to give us the technology. They could drive us into
the arms of the French.'



I can say only one thing: 8O

greetz, Pietn

[Humberside]

The US needs to let the UK use the technology. If we cant be trusted with it, who can. And Im sure the government and British contractors can give assurances they wont transfer the technology to anyone else. Both the UK and US cant afford the relationship between the two countries to be strained. George Bush often needs UK help and support and for the UK, the US is one of our most important allies in many areas

If only it was that simple ...........

[regi]

But if lack of transfer of technology and price are breaking points, why don't the Brittish consider to buy Sukhois? That would be a cracker!

[pietn]

I think that the Americans are the only one's who would have the disadvantage. If they don't share it, the UK probably will not buy the JSF, so that means a great loss in the project. I think this again confirms that America wants to be the big "warmachine" and they won't allow any country getting near them.
Maybe the UK will become the first export customer for the Rafale
It find it pretty funny if it should happen that the UK buys the Rafale. From the beginning there has always been some sort of comparison between the Rafale and the Eurofighter. There was already a comparison between the two about their export succes and then the country with the more export succes would help the country with the less export succes , the only thing missing is France buying the Eurofighter
But this is all just a fantasy.
Greetz, Pietn

[Humberside]

I think this again confirms that America wants to be the big "warmachine" and they won't allow any country getting near them.

The US wont become a big "warmachine" without the UK's military, and perhaps more importantly, diplomatic assistance

[pietn]

Yeah your right about that, but that was just the impression america sometimes give to me .
But the UK probably said the thing about the Rafale's more to put some pressure on the USA so that they afterall are willing to share the technology. The UK won't give up so fast on the project since they have developed their own engine in corporation with General Electric (the F-136) for the JSF and started production of the first UK components for the F-35C STOVL

greetz, Pietn

[HorsePower]

Hi pietn,

The STOVL version is the F-35B.

Seb.

[Ozzie1969]

OK, we shouldn't discuss politics here... just can't resist:
This is one more illustration of the US folding back onto themselves, while the world around them slowly grows into better understanding.And if Uncle Sam manages to get London in closer accord with continental Europe, all my applause!

Good joke!

[pietn]

Hi horsepower

Your right I think, guess I was wrong because on www.f-16.net they wrote this:

"The F-35C STOVL is expected to replace the AV-8 Harrier with the U.S. Marine Corps as well as the British Royal Navy and Royal Air Force. Two other variants of the F-35 are planned for production along with the STOVL version. The F-35A will be the Conventional TakeOff and Landing (CTOL) verson while the F-35B will operate off of US Navy aircraft carriers using existing catapults and cables."

But if I now look at pictures of the F-35C, I see an arrestor hook. Wich clearly means it is the carrier variant. And the F-35B the STOVL.

Meanwhile, the co-operation between GE and Rolls-Royce for the F-136 has come to an end and now it's Pratt & Whitney and Rolls-Royce who work together on the F-135. (If I've red it right).
Rolls-Royce produces the LiftFan, Three Bearing Swivel Module and Roll Posts as a subcontractor to Pratt & Whitney.

greetz, Pietn

[fleabyte]

I doubt the UK will have to send F35 back to USA for repair, maybe some specialized repair on stealth technology aspects.

I doubt the UK MOD will be dragged into buying a inferior aircraft at a higher unit cost.

The Rafale has a radar signature equivalent of a small city bus, while the F35 has that of a soccer ball, with far less maintenance than the F117.

It is likely that there will be a global supply chain to support some 3,000 F35. The Rafale will be produced in the hundreds.

UK and USA share far more military technology than most persons appreciate, and this will not change. The UK has contributed great amounts of technology to the US military over the years - submarines, catapults, VTOL, Chobham armour to name a few. The pentagon knows this better than anyone.

The US and UK special relationship will not end, there have always been the distrorted media opinions of the Francobrits, but when the chips are down, their voices are lost, and the UK knows who it's loyal ally is, as do the yanks.

[regi]

the rolls royce merlin engine was also a good example of cooperation between Old Albion and the USA.

[regi]

reading this article, it seems that the problem is not solved.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 23,00.html
"all for me and nothing for you " is the wrong attitude doing business with one of the leading countries of the commercial world.

[fleabyte]

yes, this sounds very serious, now it is involving the US congress, it will be a polical spin war dems vs republicans, without consideing US or UK interests. Amazing these issues were not thought out by USA or UK ahead of time.

[n5528p]

But if I now look at pictures of the F-35C, I see an arrestor hook. Wich clearly means it is the carrier variant.

Sorry. but there are also many USAF planes how never touched a flight deck of a carrier - still they have hooks because arresting devices are also used on land.

Regards, Bernhard

[earthman]

Still the F-35C is the carrier variant, and the F-35B is the VSTOL variant. And besides, the carrier variant has to be reinforced to cope with the additional stress from using the catapults and arrestor wires. Otherwise the plane will not last very long.

[fleabyte]

It sunds like Lockheed is worried about giving away technology advantage to future competitors, that is understandable, but how did the UK, Australia and the US get this far without thinking this point through.

I would suggest the F35 for UK and Australia be de-stealthed of the proprietary technology. The radar signature will likely still be lower than a Sukhoi or Rafale. All service can be done in country of ownership. This could apply to other F35 countries.

Alternatively, the UK and Australia sign a 25 year non compete, since after that point, the technology will be dated.

I have heard this will be the last US fighter with a pilot anyhoot.

[vc-10]

Why should it be de-stealthed? It's not as if we are going to give one to Iran and ask them to copy it.......
I think the US is being arrogant. The UK(sorry, Bliar) is completely in the US' pocket. We need out, to be with some countries where obese is the exception, not the norm and you don't need your photo, fingerprints, iris scans and DNA taken at the airport, even if you are spending a total of 5 hours in the US befor boarding a plane to somewhere else.

We should get the JSF, as we do need it. But if they will only give us a striped down version, we should stop building parts for their JSFs and go and buy French Rafaels

[fleabyte]

I think a company trying to rotect it's competitive advantage is not arrogant, but if USA was not clear about this at front end of program that is arrogant.

while the F16 program was a good international success and continues to be, maybe the F35 is too advanced to be. But if the UK and Australia were made promises, those promises need to be honored or their investment should be refunded.

In the end, The USAF, Navy and marines will need enough of these F35's to make it a successful program, and by it's nature, it will be a good export program in the future, since the F35 is superior to all fighters except the F22. Losing UK and Australia participation should then result in their workshares going back to USA companies.

Yes, and USA is a very fat country, go stand in front of a wallmart in the southern USA on a saturday morning and watch the folks coming in to shop. It is a pretty scary sight. And my wife thinks my back has become hairy like a bear from the hormones they pump into the meats in the USA.

But there is still a good side, and it is inevitable the US will stop trying to save the world, (thankless task), start minding it's own business, and focus on competing economically with all the countries it has helped over the past 55 years.

[regi]

There is an alternative:
buy de-stealthed planes and apply a european stealth system on it.
I bet that some US law makers will go berserk about that possebility as well.
And the engine may come from a european manufacturer as well.
It is a bit sad that some US members in this forum forget that Harriers were a brittish product.