First to Ozzy 1969 and Regi: I am a language conscious Flemish as well, but I never had any language issues at Zaventem (and I think I use it more than you). I always speak Dutch, from check-in, to border control, in the bars and shops, and I never had an unwelcome reply or people unwilling to reply to me in Dutch. Besides, some of your comments do not belong here, but on the forums of the website of Het Laatste Nieuws, www.hln.be, where you will find a lot of "like minded" people like you with some nice black/white thinking.
Back to the topic: why not start looking into Bevekom/Beauvechain:
1) in complete rural environment
2) more or less on the language border
3) close enough to E411 and E40 (30 minutes by car from Brussels)
4) The airforce is already nearly 100 pct out (A-jets went to France, I think)
A 2nd National Airport in Belgium, a good idea?
Moderator: Latest news team
Eurojet, before you think it is time to target some members, don't forget that it was André who brought up the langage problem.
How often you may use Zaventem, I can only speak for myself. Every time I am at the airport and I speak to service staff in dutch I get a kind of french sounding reaction. But definitely not dutch.
Strange exception is the airport police.
Trolly guys, coffee ladies, restaurant personnel upstairs, just all of them seem to ignore the fact that they have the privilige to work on the national airport of a nation which inhabitants are 60% dutch speaking.
How often you may use Zaventem, I can only speak for myself. Every time I am at the airport and I speak to service staff in dutch I get a kind of french sounding reaction. But definitely not dutch.
Strange exception is the airport police.
Trolly guys, coffee ladies, restaurant personnel upstairs, just all of them seem to ignore the fact that they have the privilige to work on the national airport of a nation which inhabitants are 60% dutch speaking.
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AFApresident
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Is there room for a cargo airport between Doel and the dutch border?
It would be next to the harbor (so already little people living there, and those in Doel need to move anyway already), and since its next to the harbor you are next to all big companies as well.
And if people in Deurne keep complaining you can maybe move all pax operations from Deurne to that airport as well, and link it with trains to Gent/Antwerpen Centraal from where you can connect to all other belgian cities. Furthermore you can connect the "lange wapper brug" or at least a piece of the new to build perimeter around Antwerp with this new airport.
The airport would thus be located just north of the nuclear plants of Doel and just south of the dutch border with runways going approximately parrallel to the dutch border there and perpindicular to the Schelde river @ Doel, which means planes won´t fly over the power plant as well but next to it.
I just quickly draw 2 runways and a cargo apron on a map. Just to give you a better idea of which location I am speaking.
We could even have a visual river approach
http://www.geocities.com/thomassnoeck/n ... irport.JPG
[Too wide image changed to URL: see forum rules]
Runways would also be well located for the predominant southwestern winds.
It would be next to the harbor (so already little people living there, and those in Doel need to move anyway already), and since its next to the harbor you are next to all big companies as well.
And if people in Deurne keep complaining you can maybe move all pax operations from Deurne to that airport as well, and link it with trains to Gent/Antwerpen Centraal from where you can connect to all other belgian cities. Furthermore you can connect the "lange wapper brug" or at least a piece of the new to build perimeter around Antwerp with this new airport.
The airport would thus be located just north of the nuclear plants of Doel and just south of the dutch border with runways going approximately parrallel to the dutch border there and perpindicular to the Schelde river @ Doel, which means planes won´t fly over the power plant as well but next to it.
I just quickly draw 2 runways and a cargo apron on a map. Just to give you a better idea of which location I am speaking.
We could even have a visual river approach
http://www.geocities.com/thomassnoeck/n ... irport.JPG
[Too wide image changed to URL: see forum rules]
Runways would also be well located for the predominant southwestern winds.
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Comet
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A second national airport would be a bad idea. BRU needs to be the main airport, as Brussels is the "capital" of the EU ( 
) as well as Belgium, and what capital city is without a main airport? It would be a hassle to have CDG and AMS as the big players, not just for Belgian flying abroad, but also people wanting to go to Belgium. When you go to Belgium you want to be flying into Brussels, not FRA, AMS or (God forbid) CDG You would have your flight then a train ride of a couple of hours to reach your destination!
BRU is also a better developed airport, as far as the facilities for passengers in the terminal go, than the travisty in Paris (CDG) which I personally rate as the worst airport I have ever been in. I hope I never have the misfortune to use CDG again. If flying to CDG and catching the Thalys was my only way of visiting Belgium, then I would take my holidays elsewhere.
A strong airport at BRU is the best thing, not a second airport somewhere else which would weaken BRU.
) as well as Belgium, and what capital city is without a main airport? It would be a hassle to have CDG and AMS as the big players, not just for Belgian flying abroad, but also people wanting to go to Belgium. When you go to Belgium you want to be flying into Brussels, not FRA, AMS or (God forbid) CDG You would have your flight then a train ride of a couple of hours to reach your destination!BRU is also a better developed airport, as far as the facilities for passengers in the terminal go, than the travisty in Paris (CDG) which I personally rate as the worst airport I have ever been in. I hope I never have the misfortune to use CDG again. If flying to CDG and catching the Thalys was my only way of visiting Belgium, then I would take my holidays elsewhere.
A strong airport at BRU is the best thing, not a second airport somewhere else which would weaken BRU.
Sabena and Sobelair - gone but never forgotten.
Louise
Louise
Maybe Eurojet shouldn’t have been targeting members but expose his disagree in general terms.
Still I understand his point; the past week Zaventem has been heavily discussed in this forum and looking at it “as an outsider” it was quite shocking to read the general reluctance towards own Francophone co-citizens. 8O
SN26567 didn’t bring up the language problem but suggested an option for equilibrium, which leads into stability and mutual fulfillment. That’s my interpretation.
When this virtual civil war will end:
- Politicians of the two sides (or three), elected democratically btw (and with common sense) will be more co-operative and more constructive.
- The Wallonian will speak Flamish and the Flemish will speak Dutch.
- SN will be greater than ever, and making even profits.
- Zaventem will solve all the problems, add new terminals and satellites connections to EBCI-EBAW-EBOS by high speed mono rail.
If I'm hallucinating
Maybe
Better than sticking to a perpetual nightmare.
Still I understand his point; the past week Zaventem has been heavily discussed in this forum and looking at it “as an outsider” it was quite shocking to read the general reluctance towards own Francophone co-citizens. 8O
SN26567 didn’t bring up the language problem but suggested an option for equilibrium, which leads into stability and mutual fulfillment. That’s my interpretation.
When this virtual civil war will end:
- Politicians of the two sides (or three), elected democratically btw (and with common sense) will be more co-operative and more constructive.
- The Wallonian will speak Flamish and the Flemish will speak Dutch.
- SN will be greater than ever, and making even profits.
- Zaventem will solve all the problems, add new terminals and satellites connections to EBCI-EBAW-EBOS by high speed mono rail.
If I'm hallucinating
Maybe
Better than sticking to a perpetual nightmare.-
Vinnie-Winnie
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- Location: London
Yeah I reckon we should just maintain the status=quo. Sounds indeed suicidal to create a 2nd airport for such a small country.
Oh and why not create a brand new freight airport in beauvechain? It's still Belgium right in the middle between the netherlands, germany, luxemburg, france and the uk.
Please people stop bickering about what language they use in brussels=national. Who cares?? As long as the people r nice polite and friendly, who cares about what language is being used?
Ever been to a touristy place where they don't speak english? Well dunno but I reckon only a minority of people find it chocking that they don't speak any english.
Oh but it's not their native language that's allright isn't it? Well what's the difference with Belgium? Do you really need the bar=woman to be fluent in french dutch english?
Oh and why not create a brand new freight airport in beauvechain? It's still Belgium right in the middle between the netherlands, germany, luxemburg, france and the uk.
Please people stop bickering about what language they use in brussels=national. Who cares?? As long as the people r nice polite and friendly, who cares about what language is being used?
Ever been to a touristy place where they don't speak english? Well dunno but I reckon only a minority of people find it chocking that they don't speak any english.
Oh but it's not their native language that's allright isn't it? Well what's the difference with Belgium? Do you really need the bar=woman to be fluent in french dutch english?
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Bruspotter
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Hello
I have not yet replied on this topic...but I thinks it's time to say my word again.
Moving all traffic from BRU would be just simply RIDICULOUS...and for multiple reasons...it wouldn't solve a thing.
First of all , it's a prove of how people can avoid solving a problem..it's just because they are lazy or afraid for the difficulty of the failure of the solution. By making another airport you just even create a BIGGER PROBLEM! And all the costs?? Who can pay this? No-one... The Belgian government has already to short in money. Would be stupid. By the way , you can build an airport there , but the little people living there (or even more....the people living under approach/take-off route...and be sure it are several thousands...) are even MORE in their RIGHT than the people who complain about BRU. So what I mean is ; Now the airport moved to where the people live , and not the other way. Wich would mean severe protest actions I think.
And at last...the transport.
It might be close to the harbour (good for SQ Cargo since they have a co-operating contract with Antwerp harbour) but that doesn't means it changes a lot. The cargo that actually arrives at the airport is in majority not Cargo wich is for a harbour (exception for SQ) , but for Cargo centres all over the country etc... So they might even have to drive further than if when BRU was in the center of the country. By the way...a lot of pax might have complaints about getting there because it's really far now if you live in by example , Namur ...than that it was to BRU. Extra...they should restart again at that place with no popularity (unknown to the people , as well in Belgium as abroad) and their trustability might be different. They will also have to overcome all the problems concerning location and it's bad points (as well of course the good things).
And also think about the many important meetings and in specification the Many many EU-meetings , ....would they be happy if they would land near the Dutch border and than have to drive about 60-70km before reaching BRU in the traffic Jam? No , I don't think so. And what will they do with 'Melsbroek'...? Close it? Don't let me laugh!
By the way. In this modern world economical center points will expand (so airports too) and people will automatically come and live closer to those centers. We just have to live with the idea of that in the future we will just have to get used to that. And in the mean time there's getting done what CAN be done...noise regulations (now don't overreact please because BRU is already one of the strongest regulated airports in the world if it concerns noise
). And aircrafts WILL be more silent...but in mean time...yeahh...it's just the way it is....
Actually...if you see to other country's. People shouldn't overreact and especially not if they trigger the problem themselves by go living there. Actually the airport should be a big part of the state (and certainly that goes for the 'MELSBROEK' part) and it should be protected as economical center point of the state. So that they can't harm it anymore. And people who have bad reasons for complaining or who overreact should be able to be judged too...it's not only the airport who needs to be judged. If people go wrong they should be punished too. So what do you guys think about THAT? Maybe they could make a law like that ??:D
And the VERY last reason I can find (maybe I DO have others but than I can be talking on for hours)
BRU finally stands on the point to 'catch' some big 'fish' . Finally they have to chance to rewin some long-haul airlines like Jet Airways , Etihad soon (hopefully) and ANA (already confirmed I heard?). So now they stand were they were lllllllllllllllllllllooooon ago...many decennia's ago....the choice for making BRU an big international airport. In that time they also hesitated TOO much , and the process took TOO long and the airlines vanished to other airports wich are now grown to EU-top airports like (CDG , AMS , FRA , LHR). So I would say ..don't spoil it this time. It might be the cance/decision of the next coming 20 years. If those new long haul airlines have positive comments on BRU , they might follow more. BRU could become a real 'between-stop-airport'
So should BRU move for another airport?
S...NO...actually I don't think it's possible and also unnecessary.
I DON'T Agree! Would be a bad step in the future for Belgium politics too. Sure they would receive a lot of complaints....(and next elections I'm in so....
....( not the politics but voting ) )
Best regards: Yannick
I have not yet replied on this topic...but I thinks it's time to say my word again.
Moving all traffic from BRU would be just simply RIDICULOUS...and for multiple reasons...it wouldn't solve a thing.
First of all , it's a prove of how people can avoid solving a problem..it's just because they are lazy or afraid for the difficulty of the failure of the solution. By making another airport you just even create a BIGGER PROBLEM! And all the costs?? Who can pay this? No-one... The Belgian government has already to short in money. Would be stupid. By the way , you can build an airport there , but the little people living there (or even more....the people living under approach/take-off route...and be sure it are several thousands...) are even MORE in their RIGHT than the people who complain about BRU. So what I mean is ; Now the airport moved to where the people live , and not the other way. Wich would mean severe protest actions I think.
And at last...the transport.
It might be close to the harbour (good for SQ Cargo since they have a co-operating contract with Antwerp harbour
) but that doesn't means it changes a lot. The cargo that actually arrives at the airport is in majority not Cargo wich is for a harbour (exception for SQ) , but for Cargo centres all over the country etc... So they might even have to drive further than if when BRU was in the center of the country. By the way...a lot of pax might have complaints about getting there because it's really far now if you live in by example , Namur ...than that it was to BRU. Extra...they should restart again at that place with no popularity (unknown to the people , as well in Belgium as abroad) and their trustability might be different. They will also have to overcome all the problems concerning location and it's bad points (as well of course the good things). And also think about the many important meetings and in specification the Many many EU-meetings , ....would they be happy if they would land near the Dutch border and than have to drive about 60-70km before reaching BRU in the traffic Jam? No , I don't think so. And what will they do with 'Melsbroek'...? Close it? Don't let me laugh!
By the way. In this modern world economical center points will expand (so airports too) and people will automatically come and live closer to those centers. We just have to live with the idea of that in the future we will just have to get used to that. And in the mean time there's getting done what CAN be done...noise regulations (now don't overreact please because BRU is already one of the strongest regulated airports in the world if it concerns noise
). And aircrafts WILL be more silent...but in mean time...yeahh...it's just the way it is.... Actually...if you see to other country's. People shouldn't overreact and especially not if they trigger the problem themselves by go living there. Actually the airport should be a big part of the state (and certainly that goes for the 'MELSBROEK' part) and it should be protected as economical center point of the state. So that they can't harm it anymore. And people who have bad reasons for complaining or who overreact should be able to be judged too...it's not only the airport who needs to be judged. If people go wrong they should be punished too. So what do you guys think about THAT? Maybe they could make a law like that ??
:D And the VERY last reason I can find (maybe I DO have others but than I can be talking on for hours
)BRU finally stands on the point to 'catch' some big 'fish' . Finally they have to chance to rewin some long-haul airlines like Jet Airways , Etihad soon (hopefully) and ANA (already confirmed I heard?). So now they stand were they were lllllllllllllllllllllooooon ago...many decennia's ago....the choice for making BRU an big international airport. In that time they also hesitated TOO much , and the process took TOO long and the airlines vanished to other airports wich are now grown to EU-top airports like (CDG , AMS , FRA , LHR). So I would say ..don't spoil it this time. It might be the cance/decision of the next coming 20 years. If those new long haul airlines have positive comments on BRU , they might follow more. BRU could become a real 'between-stop-airport'
So should BRU move for another airport?
S...NO...actually I don't think it's possible and also unnecessary.
I DON'T Agree! Would be a bad step in the future for Belgium politics too. Sure they would receive a lot of complaints....(and next elections I'm in so....
....( not the politics but voting ) ) Best regards: Yannick
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Ozzie1969
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Why create a new cargo hub in Beauvechain? There's still some space left in Charleroi and Liège, I think.
What bothers me about all this, is how some people still seem to think this has to be politicized through and through. Politicians shouldn't decide who flies where. They should simply give all airports in Belgium the chance to attract airlines according to their own ability, and may the best airport win. Anything our highly competent politicians interfere in, gets scr*wed up anyway. If Charleroi manages, through fair trading practices, to overshadow Zaventem, then so be it. I don't care. I've used Charleroi airport before, and I will use it again. As long as all airports can compete on an equal basis, nobody could possibly have anything against this.
What bothers me about all this, is how some people still seem to think this has to be politicized through and through. Politicians shouldn't decide who flies where. They should simply give all airports in Belgium the chance to attract airlines according to their own ability, and may the best airport win. Anything our highly competent politicians interfere in, gets scr*wed up anyway. If Charleroi manages, through fair trading practices, to overshadow Zaventem, then so be it. I don't care. I've used Charleroi airport before, and I will use it again. As long as all airports can compete on an equal basis, nobody could possibly have anything against this.
A second airport for Bruxelles / Belgium?
Since I am not from the area I am not aware of the utilization rate of your airport in Zaventem. But what I remember from the books (although I admit this is more or less theoretical), the minimum for sustaining two airports in one metropolitan area, are approx. 14 million pax. Most sources consider this the absolute minimum. Of course the freight rate would alter this, as well as other factors, but I think that BRU does not have the traffic to fund two airports on the long term.
I am from Vienna and we have just finished a mediation procedure concerning the expansion of the airport. I can only support the opinion shared by other members above: DO NOT ALLOW PEOPLE TO BUILD THEIR HOMES THERE ANYMORE.
Regards, Bernhard
Since I am not from the area I am not aware of the utilization rate of your airport in Zaventem. But what I remember from the books (although I admit this is more or less theoretical), the minimum for sustaining two airports in one metropolitan area, are approx. 14 million pax. Most sources consider this the absolute minimum. Of course the freight rate would alter this, as well as other factors, but I think that BRU does not have the traffic to fund two airports on the long term.
I am from Vienna and we have just finished a mediation procedure concerning the expansion of the airport. I can only support the opinion shared by other members above: DO NOT ALLOW PEOPLE TO BUILD THEIR HOMES THERE ANYMORE.
Regards, Bernhard
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Bruspotter
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Hello
I don't know why everyone is always talking about several new airports? Why not Antwerp? Why not Cargo airport at Beauvechain etc...
EVERYTHING must stay in BRUSSELS!!! It's already complicated enough without having to send everything to a different airport. Brussels can't even fill it's own stands. So why need more airports? Let it overfill. And if anyone has a problem with if get the :censored: out of there and move!
As said before...indeed...lots of new building grounds there under current approach routes (but for how long? ) , so if anyone would buy it , they should need to be warned of the troubles....and let them sign a contract :contract: wich makes the possibility unable to complain about their choice (noise ) , and so their vote don't count. That would make that ALL NEW villagers have no more need to complain about it because they have chosen it themselves!!!
And just get used to the idea that they actually should CLOSE the area as a place where you still can live...and lock every house wherefrom the owner died or has moved , so that within unknown time all those houses will be empty and made ready to be demolished and to be bought by BIAC as a buffer area between the villages and the runways. Than the problem will be solved in maybe max 10 years and in mean time it goes better. Why isn't that an idea? (maybe little utopic because the Belgian law , but certainly not impossible if it needs to...think it's worth a state-crisis)
And than there is still room to expand at BRU , and than our economy will grow steeply (I think) and we might ever get out our state-debts too.
Best regards: Yannick
I don't know why everyone is always talking about several new airports? Why not Antwerp? Why not Cargo airport at Beauvechain etc...
EVERYTHING must stay in BRUSSELS!!! It's already complicated enough without having to send everything to a different airport. Brussels can't even fill it's own stands. So why need more airports? Let it overfill. And if anyone has a problem with if get the :censored: out of there and move!
As said before...indeed...lots of new building grounds there under current approach routes (but for how long?
) , so if anyone would buy it , they should need to be warned of the troubles....and let them sign a contract :contract: wich makes the possibility unable to complain about their choice (noise ) , and so their vote don't count. That would make that ALL NEW villagers have no more need to complain about it because they have chosen it themselves!!! And just get used to the idea that they actually should CLOSE the area as a place where you still can live...and lock every house wherefrom the owner died or has moved , so that within unknown time all those houses will be empty and made ready to be demolished and to be bought by BIAC as a buffer area between the villages and the runways. Than the problem will be solved in maybe max 10 years and in mean time it goes better. Why isn't that an idea? (maybe little utopic because the Belgian law , but certainly not impossible if it needs to...think it's worth a state-crisis)
And than there is still room to expand at BRU , and than our economy will grow steeply (I think) and we might ever get out our state-debts too
. Best regards: Yannick
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MKAirlines
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Ozzie1969
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If you take a map of Belgium, and you draw a line
from Ostend to Charleroi,
from Charleroi to Liège,
from Liège to Antwerp,
and from Antwerp back to Ostend,
what do you find almost exactly in the middle?
Zaventem. The most logical location for a national airport.
If you try to create a second national airport, you're always going to have to create it close to one of the 4 other main airports, so you might as well increase the size of one of those, instead of creating a totally new airport.
Unless you want to create a new national airport somewhere in the vicinity of Arlon...
from Ostend to Charleroi,
from Charleroi to Liège,
from Liège to Antwerp,
and from Antwerp back to Ostend,
what do you find almost exactly in the middle?
Zaventem. The most logical location for a national airport.
If you try to create a second national airport, you're always going to have to create it close to one of the 4 other main airports, so you might as well increase the size of one of those, instead of creating a totally new airport.
Unless you want to create a new national airport somewhere in the vicinity of Arlon...
re
well, there are 3 training sq based ( 2 x airforce and 1 x naval airforce ), also there is based the logistic centre, weather service, major overhaul services, and the airforce ground school ( Koninklijke Militaire School Luchtmacht, Initiele Militaire Opleidingen ) so there is a lot to do over there.neither would they like approaches through the CTR of Woensdrecht military airfield just across the border, though I don't think there remains much activitythere
http://www.luchtmacht.nl/woensdrecht/
Maby they speak 4 different languages@ school, they are way to Patriotic ( it has to do with there mentality ) to speak a different language in normal live. Its only French over there!and the winner is:
Liège: French - Dutch - English - German